David Remnick: In 2002, The New Yorker first published a short story by Tessa Hadley. Titled, Lost and Found, the story described a friendship between two women who had been close since childhood. Hadley's fiction is often consumed with relationships at this scale: tight dramas close to home. Within these relationships, she captures an extraordinary depth and complexity of emotion. The New Yorker recently published its 30th story from Tessa Hadley. That's more than any other fiction writer in recent times. She spoke recently with our fiction editor, Deborah Treisman.

Deborah Treisman: I want to talk to you about your new story collection After The Funeral, which I think is your 12th book of fiction, but before we launch on that, let's go back to your first, Accidents in the Home, which was published in 2002. A lot has been made of the fact that you published your first book in your 40s. What happened in the years before that, before Accidents in the Home?

Tessa Hadley: Lots of writing and failing, lots of trying to do it and getting it really wrong. It wasn't like a slow, gradual build-up and then I started writing something that seemed truthful and okay. It was like, it's not like falling off a cliff, it's the opposite. It was like I was under the cliff and just treading water and not getting anywhere. Then I don't know quite what happened in my 40s, that made the connection flowing down from my brain, down my arm, into the keyboard. I might have even still been at the typewriter at that point, but I don't know what quite happened to get that right.

Deborah Treisman: In those years, when you're writing and you feel you're failing, at what point are you assessing something as a failure?

Tessa Hadley: There's a lot of self-deception in writing always. I would be writing a novel that I hoped would work and I would have a horrible feeling it was wrong. Then I still have a horrible feeling [laughter] it's wrong quite a lot when I'm doing it. Then I would tell myself that's probably just that silly, horrible feeling and it might be all right, really. I would get to the end of it and I would have this hope against hope. I think maybe I was just a late developer and I was trying to write other people's novels for all that time.

Getting it right, eventually, in as far as one ever is sure of getting it right, felt like wandering around in other people's wildernesses and then coming home, putting a key in the door, opening the door, walking into your own house, recognizing the rooms of your house, thinking, "This is where I live and this is where my writing lives." That's what it did feel like. It felt like, "I know what I think about this. I'm not faking it anymore."

Deborah Treisman: What kept you going through the years when you did feel you were faking it? Why not give up at that point?

Tessa Hadley: Yes. It's just the strangest insanity, really. Nothing good, nothing virtuous, like perseverance or strength or will. That desire is so awful. It wasn't nice. It was so awful that I almost felt I wasn't properly alive unless I could write, which is absurd, lunatic, but that was what it was. Each time I would fail and I'd think, "That's it. Do something else. Be a nurse. Love being a housewife, whatever." Then I'd think, "Oh, but what if I wrote that book? That book would be good. Surely that book would work," and I would start again.

Deborah Treisman: You know what impresses me over and over in your writing is the understanding that you have of your character's emotional and psychological lives. I often have that Alexander Popian feeling that what often was thought but never so well expressed, where I've had this feeling, never put it into words, and there it is on your page. I wonder often how you get so deeply inside your characters and are able to both know what feelings they're having [laughs] and to express them with such clarity.

Tessa Hadley: I would think it relates a little bit to fantasy, and to being very impressionable. I can remember as a very little girl, we were quite odd. There were three friends and we just played out fantasy games every day in the playground and if we came to each other's houses and they would be like acting, we would be the governess with the naughty children or the kidnapped by pirates, or we were three women who lived-- Some of them were long-running. They were soaps rather than short stories.

We were three women who inexplicably, with no men involved, had children, all named, all ages, and everything. We lived on an island and we had to row to get shopping and things.

All of us had personalities that were not our actual personalities. Yes, writing draws on empathetic, imaginative faculties, which feed into fantasy, and then they feed in a more ordered and disciplined way into fictions and paintings and films, and so on.

Deborah Treisman: Yes. I'm thinking now about a specific story that is in the collection. It's the last one in the collection called Coda, which very much takes three characters, I suppose, two main characters at a specific enclosed time in their lives and sees what happens in these few weeks. I think you were going to read a short passage from this story. Maybe we'll do that now.

Tessa Hadley: I'd love to. It was three o'clock on a November's afternoon, and I haven't turned on the light. Already the air outside seemed blue with the evening. The wilted shrubs in the front gardens and the double row of parked cars were desolate, shrouded in cold. I thought at first that there was no one out there. I treasured these passages of a stringent solitude, stolen from my day. Then I saw that I wasn't alone after all. A woman was standing beside the wheelie bins in the paved front area next door smoking a cigarette.

I hadn't noticed her at first because she stood almost directly below me. I was looking down now at the top of her head into the thick mass of her black hair. Her back was more or less turned to me. She couldn't possibly have seen me, and I'm sure I'd have been invisible to her anyway, even if she'd chosen to look up behind her. The window panes would only have reflected darkness. Nonetheless, I took a step away from the window, which was steaming up from my breath on the cold glass.

This woman's character seemed strongly expressed in her physical presence, with her shoulders [unintelligible 00:08:03] and her head held back defiantly as if she expected to be challenged. She flaunted her cigarette, wrist-angled coquettishly, turning her face away to blow out smoke. Her black coat with its fake fur collar was shrugged on against the cold.

Beneath it, she had on a white house coat, like a nurse's uniform, which made me think she must be some carer for the old man next door. We didn't know him very well.

We'd spoken to his grown-up sons going in and out. I'd offered to do shopping for him, but they said they could manage. I guess that this carer was pent up like me, bracing herself for a return to the daily, perpetual work of kindness. She sucked on that cigarette thirstily, holding her right elbow and her left hand, left arm clasped tightly against her body. When she'd finished, she ground out the cigarette end under her heel. Before she went inside, she cast one quick look up at our window, which made me start back again.

I was sure she couldn't have seen me, but she might have had an animal intuition that she was being watched. As she punched the buttons on the keys safe before unlocking the door and disappearing into the house, I had time to see that she was much younger than me, but not young, 40, perhaps, with something faded or hardened in her smudged, brash, sultry looks, snub nose, full mouth, luxuriant thick lashes, scarred, bad skin. With her stocky build and dark coloring, she might have been Spanish or Portuguese.

Margo wouldn't have considered this woman in the least pretty or sexy. She would've said that she was coarse. I can see how some people might find her attractive. Her judgment on such matters was always inflexible with that little twist of distaste in her face behind the show of concession and self-doubt. "What were you doing in the spare room?" She asked when I went downstairs. "I went to the loo," I said. "I went to look out of the window." "Anything happening out on Desolation Row?" "Nothing. No. No one."

Deborah Treisman: There's so much in that scene. How did this scene come about? You had in place a 92-year-old mother and middle-aged daughter coming to live with her and the pandemic. You had them both in a house. You had their complicated relationship, but then you needed another element, something to throw it off.

Tessa Hadley: Yes, I needed another element. A physique fell into place. Often it's that, it's based on somebody who has no actual relationship to that character in that story. It was just a woman who used to wait at the school gate years ago and had kids who played with my kids. It was when I got her physique, and actually, she was Maltese. She was Maltese, which is what this Teresa turns out to be later on in the story. That was my key. The physique somehow precipitates something in the story between this rather English mother and daughter, the elegant charming, lush mother and the uptight daughter.

I needed something brasher to make the triangle flow and break up the stasis between the two who know each other so well after a long life in close relation.

Deborah Treisman: It becomes a very strange love triangle in the end.

Tessa Hadley: It does.

Deborah Treisman: A lot of your fiction, like this story, involves families, relationships, marriages, and I've seen it described in various places as domestic fiction. I personally take a little exception to that term, because it's really aimed almost always at female writers and very rarely men who also write about marriage and families.

Tessa Hadley: I've never heard [unintelligible 00:12:31] called domestic fiction.

Deborah Treisman: [laughs] No, exactly.

Tessa Hadley: He writes all about that stuff.

Deborah Treisman: Yes. Ultimately, Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew is domestic fiction, if you would see it that way, and William Trevor, John Updike, so many people. I'm wondering how you feel about being classified in that way.

Tessa Hadley: A bit resigned because yes, it's familiar. Everything you've just said, it tends to have a little bit of condescension in it, but it just sort of, "Ah, if domestic Domus the house, most fiction, not all fiction, but so much fiction, write back to Greek tragedy. It's all in the house, Odysseus from his Odyssey coming back to find his wife still weaving and the suit is all there. Thats domestic. That's the home, the half.

Of course, there are the Robinson Crusoes and the adventure stories, and they're really important, but most stories are based around those fundamental human configurations, but of course, of course, of course, sometimes, if you've read the newspaper that morning, and you are aware of some of the extremities happening in the world, I almost completely accept the challenge. "Why are you writing here about a woman looking after her elderly mother in a relatively privileged situation where they have plenty to eat, and nobody's trying to kick them out from the home, and so on?"

Yes, I think one should feel perpetually slightly on edge as to whether your subject matter justifies the art, but in the end, there we are. Also, you don't get a choice about what you write. Again, that's very much to continue from what we were talking about at the beginning, finding your own home in writing. You don't get, "Oh, which house should I live in? Shall I write the post-colonial novel?" Well, in fact, I think that rather is what I was trying to do in those years of failing.

I wasn't reading Gordon Moran curtsy, and of course, thinking they were stunning, and wanting to write books like that. That wasn't what I knew about, so I couldn't. In other people's work, the holding of the tiny and the parochial is I don't have doubts about that value, but I think one should hold the doubt about the value of what you're doing yourself. That's fine. It keeps you on edge, and it would stop you being complacent.

Deborah Treisman: Actually, I was going to say, I think most of your work does, in a sense take place against a larger backdrop, especially when you know you're writing about the '60s or the '70s. There's always the cultural-political context there, it's unavoidable because it is part of daily life.

Tessa Hadley: Yes. Well, I love you saying that. I think certainly in the UK, I get described as writing about bourgeois life as much as about domestic life, and that's probably a slightly more stinging critique. Of course, I'm aware of it. Sometimes I push. When I feel like could, I push my terrain out a little bit, but in the end, that is what I know. What interests me, there is a great tradition, especially a 20th-century tradition of British writing about bourgeois domesticity, but for most of its duration, it was quite politically elitist and privileged.

The writers I love best of all like Elizabeth Bone, you really don't want to know what she thought about grammar schools, [chuckles] let alone comprehensive education. Now it's changed, and in my lifetime, that same bourgeoisie, obviously comes in every political shade, but somewhere the one I know, and its majority, I think, is conscientious anguish, definitely to the left. I'm not talking about the virtue of that, but I felt no one had described that, and I thought it was a great subject.

The people with the political posters on their wall, and the little joke I have in the news story where the rather well-off husband and his ghastly mother, think they love the working classes. They just don't love his wife's dad, who's a right-wing old military man who's definitely working class but they don't like him. Those sorts of ironies and jokes of class and politics, as to how we are now, that seems in some ways, a new subject that has-- Of course, it hasn't been written, but it hasn't been written as much.

Deborah Treisman: Thank you so much, Tessa. This was really great.

Tessa Hadley: Lovely to talk to you, Deborah. Thank you.

David Remnick: Tessa Hadley's latest collection is called After the Funeral. You can hear Hadley read one of her short stories published in The New Yorker on our podcast, The Writer's Voice. Deborah Treisman is our fiction editor.

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