David Remnick: [00:00:00] Sam Smith burst very big onto the music scene in 2014 with a debut album called In the Lonely Hour. It was one of the best-selling albums of the decade, and it won Grammys for Record of the Year and Song of the Year for Stay With Me. 

Track: Oh, won't you stay with me?

David Remnick: Sam Smith's early hits were ballads of heartbreak and unrequited love, and so their new album marks something of a change. It's an album of love songs. In this case, very much requited. And 

Track: like all good things it-

David Remnick: The album is called Hazel Eyes, and Sam Smith sat down with our producer Jeffrey Masters 

Jeffrey Masters: So take me back. I know that you grew up singing around the house and with your parents, but what was like the moment when you [00:01:00] realized that it wasn't just your parents like being nice, that, that you actually had a good voice?

Sam Smith: I think that I went to th- there's this, uh, holiday camp called Haven Holidays in the UK, and it's like affordable holidays where you go and stay in caravans- 

Track: Okay ... 

Sam Smith: in like a caravan park. And I went with my friend Beth. Um, my best friend Beth, I came out to her when I was 10, but she was also the person who kind of forced me to sing 'cause she was a singer herself.

She loves singing. And there was a talent show for children at this holiday camp. 

Jeffrey Masters: And how old were you? 

Sam Smith: Uh, me and her must've been, like, nine or 10. 

Jeffrey Masters: Okay. 

Sam Smith: And she was singing, and if you won the talent competition, you won loads of tokens, so you can go and get loads of sweets from the store, like free sweets and toys.

And, um, me and her stood up together, and we sang Heroes by Mariah Carey. And I just remember being [00:02:00] with her and just seeing the whole room kind of erupt afterwards with me and her singing. And then I went in, in another holiday camp a year later, I went and sang the same song alone, and I won an award for it in this holiday camp, and I, and just started to basically just sing to different rooms, different people, and just the response I was getting was crazy.

Jeffrey Masters: Wow. 

Sam Smith: Yeah. It was a good time, but also al- always stressful for me. 

Jeffrey Masters: Ooh, w- why stressful? 

Sam Smith: I, I just... I've always been freaked out by my voice. It's like it's a freaky thing. It's like I, I, I don't, I don't feel the same way that people feel when they hear it, and I don't hear... When I hear myself back, I'm very critical, so, um, it's always...

You know, I always... I'm very hard on myself as a singer, so when I, I come on stage, think I've done a bad job, and people are like, "That was the best you've ever sounded," and I'm like, "I'm so confused." 

Jeffrey Masters: But, but in recordings, though, you, you recognize this, how [00:03:00] you sound, right? 

Sam Smith: I have, uh, now, but it took me... I, I first recorded myself when I was, uh, 13, and I...

My first recording I ever did was me singing When You Believe, uh, by Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey, and I sang every single part by myself. And I went in the booth after recording it, and they, like, comped the vocal, and I sat down, and I heard myself sing, and I burst into tears 'cause I thought it was the worst thing ever, and I was like, "In my head, I sound so much better than that."

And, and then what came after that was many, many years of me having this dysphoria with my voice and trying to hear the goodness. 

Jeffrey Masters: I, I also was wondering, you've said that when you were growing up, and particularly in high school, you would wear makeup and, and dresses and, and traditionally feminine clothing.

Mm. And yet- On your first album, when you, you know, were first introduced to the public, you were not dressing feminine. Was that something you intentionally toned down? 

Sam Smith: No, it wasn't, it wasn't for me an [00:04:00] intentional thing. I think now I look back on it, um, I was... I moved to London when I was 18 years old, and I, I've spoken on this before, but I, I had a, a homophobic attack happen to me when I was, like, 18, and it kind of triggered me to start wearing less makeup when I was walking around the streets and, and stuff because I used to be- wear so much.

And as I started to wear less makeup, I started... Suddenly people started to notice my singing more when I was trying to sing. And then my, my manager during that first album kind of came on board, and he was c- encouraging of me. Uh, he went shopping with me some- once and, like, encouraged me to, like, wear this type of coat or that thing, and I, like, put it on and I would walk into rooms and doors just started to open to me.

You know, the suits I was wearing, it was like play... It was drag for me. So I was, like, really enjoying the wearing something different [00:05:00] and not, and, and not being... not having to deal with everyone looking at you, you know, the negativity that would come with presenting as, as femme as a child. I think I was enjoying that not happening.

But I think after my first album is when I kind of... I was like, "Oh, okay, this is like an identity now that, uh, people think this is me, and if I start dressing femme like I used to, um, that's gonna be something that has... they... people have to be educated on," you know? 

Jeffrey Masters: Yeah. 

Sam Smith: And the... And my album, first album, was so massive that, that, that world stage in which I had to make that announcement just got bigger and bigger and bigger.

Jeffrey Masters: That's so interesting because I know you grew up in a village, I believe it was, like, less than 1,000 people. 

Sam Smith: Yes. 

Jeffrey Masters: The stereotype would be that it would be less safe to, to, like, present feminine- Mm ... in this small village, but more safe in London. Yes. But it was not the case for you. 

Sam Smith: No, I mean, I was very-- looking back on it, I'm, I, I, I was very brave, and I had a, I [00:06:00] had an amazing...

I have a very strong mother, and I have a very emotional, strong, sensitive father, and they really just let me express myself. Um, and but there was definitely... You know, people would say things in the village for sure, and I worked in, like, the village store once, and there was, like, those crazy experiences in there where I had-- that were for me when I was younger.

It, it wasn't easy, but it was when it, when it came-- When I came to London, it became dangerous, and that's when I started to kind of, I guess, tone things down a little bit, uh, for my safety. I f-- was, was my reasoning. 

Jeffrey Masters: You know? And you were getting subtle signals from the industry about when you were dressing more masculine.

Uh, but I guess what I'm wondering is, um, like, do you hear anything explicitly, like, said to you, like, by people? 

Sam Smith: Yeah. I mean, as I started to transition forward and I guess backwards into wearing things I wore when I was younger and, and [00:07:00] publicly, uh, wearing makeup, moving in a more fem way, that's when I started to hear things within the industry and, um, and people would say things that was, was hard, but- 

Jeffrey Masters: Like what?

Sam Smith: I-- It was basically alluding to things not maybe being attractive because they're feminine, and luckily for me, I, I ignored that, and I pushed forward, and then when I got the opportunity, I told them that that was wrong and, um, encouraged them to educate themselves a little bit, you know? 

Jeffrey Masters: I-in hindsight, do you think that that early success that you had would've been possible had you been presenting fem?

Sam Smith: I think it would've been possible. I believe in myself and my, my music and my voice enough to say that I think I would've built a... I would've eventually probably been signed and had moments. [00:08:00] Um, I don't, I don't think it would've been on that scale. I don't, I... no, it wouldn't have been on that scale. Maybe eventually.

I think we're in different times now, and that's something I've had to, to, you know, come to a peace with because it's not like I was hiding. That's the thing that's, that's hard for me, is that I find it hard when I see, you know, people very f- uh, falsely, um, say that I came out when I was 21. I did not. I, I, I came out when I was 10 and, and I was a femme gay from a very, very young age, and very out and brave from a very young age.

Not to say it's not brave to not come out, but I, I just... I don't like that it's become part of my story that I came out when I was 21. And then also I think with the way that things have gone, I, I don't like this idea that, you know, maybe I was hiding who I truly was. It, it wasn't that. I was just ex- experimenting in a different [00:09:00] outfit during that period, and that outfit suddenly triggered doors to open for me, and I ran through those doors.

And I'm... I have no regrets. 

Jeffrey Masters: You know, going off that, listening to the new album, Hazel Eyes, there are so many references to queerness and to dating men, and it made me think back to your song Him from 2017. Yes. Yeah. Oh 

Track: my God. In 2017... 

Jeffrey Masters: Yeah. That song came out. The chorus is, "It is him I love." 

Track: Don't you try and tell me that God doesn't care for us.

It is him I love

Jeffrey Masters: And it was, it was shocking to hear. 

Track: Yeah. Why? 

Sam Smith: Yeah. 

Jeffrey Masters: Right? And, and it was a real risk to put that out at that time. 

Sam Smith: Mm. 

Jeffrey Masters: Does it still feel like now, you know, almost 10 years later, a risk to put out, like, such explicitly queer music? 

Sam Smith: Yeah. I wrote Him as a response to the, [00:10:00] um, the kinda feedback from In the Lonely Hour about the kind of neutrality maybe of some of the pronouns and things like that.

I really wanted to write Him because I was like, I, this wasn't, like, an intentional thing of hiding from me with In the Lonely Hour, and I wrote Him to be like, "I'm cool saying him. It's all good." And I did, and it, it was... I love that song, and I love that moment, but y- you, to, you're right. I, I felt like I couldn't I feel like on this album, I'm singing about a man and saying that more proudly than ever because it's a love that's reciprocated.

And on In the Lonely Hour, I was in love with a straight guy who was not gay, and we didn't hook up. It was pure unrequited love. 

Jeffrey Masters: Yeah, that always goes well. 

Sam Smith: You know. And so yeah, but so it wasn't... It was a, it was a queer record as for me, the singer in In the Lonely Hour, but the actual content was about me being in love with a straight man.

You know? It wasn't reciprocated, so I feel like now [00:11:00] with Hazel Eyes, I'm singing about a man that loves me, and so I... There's almost more pride, I guess, in this record than ever before for me- 

Jeffrey Masters: Yeah ... 

Sam Smith: in, in expressing those words. 

Jeffrey Masters: A- and you've always been very explicit that your, your songs come from a very personal place.

Is it okay to assume that My Guy is about your partner, Christian? 

Sam Smith: Yes. Yes, yes. 

Jeffrey Masters: So, so tell me, what was it like when he heard the song for the first time? 

Sam Smith: Well, Christian loves hyperpop and, like, really heavy metal, like, pop. 

Jeffrey Masters: Okay. 

Sam Smith: Like, it's 

Jeffrey Masters: So that's not this song. 

Sam Smith: It's not this song, but he loves this song and he finds the beauty in it, and he, um, he adores it.

He's, he's been so beautiful and encouraging through the whole process of this record, and it's been this balancing act of, you know, how much do you share, not wanting to share too much, but also, like, it is... it's about him, and it's a love letter to him as a record and, um, of this time that we're in, you know?

W- at what 

Jeffrey Masters: point in the songwriting process did you [00:12:00] play it for him? 

Sam Smith: I played, I probably played him that one a few days after I wrote it. Yeah, I, I show him things all the time. 

Jeffrey Masters: Wow. 

Sam Smith: Yeah. And, 

Jeffrey Masters: and you mentioned that, you know, a lot of your earlier music was about unrequited love. You know, the Sam Smith was searching for love from other people and from themself as well.

Sam Smith: Yeah. 

Jeffrey Masters: I imagine that's a very, like, fruitful place to write from. 

Sam Smith: Yeah. 

Jeffrey Masters: So for this new album, was it a challenge to write from a place of, like, "I'm happy"? 

Sam Smith: I, I thought it would be. Yeah. I really did. I, I was scared. I was always very scared of falling in love when I was younger, especially after In the Lonely Hour, you know, doing so well and changing my life in so many ways.

I was like, "I, I better stay miserable." Like, but I, I knew that when it was time and I was truly in love and I could really pull from that place, that I didn't wanna be scared of that. I, I found it a very deepening and enriching thing to pull from as an artist. 

Jeffrey Masters: In this new album, there, there was new sounds I haven't heard from you.

[00:13:00] There's a little bit of country in there. Mm-hmm. You know, obviously, there's the big ballads. There's, I mean, there's R&B. There's dance. Um, I, I don't have enough fingers to list all of, like, the genres Sam Smith has sang in. So if, if anything is possible, like, how do you, like, describe what, like, a Sam Smith song is or isn't?

Sam Smith: I, I, I think that to describe a Sam Smith song, I think my music is Dramatic, and I think it is... There's always, I feel like, some sort of tether to romance in a lot of my music. Um, but I, I feel like my music is, is, is free from those boundaries of, of genre a little bit. Just like I feel like I'm free from boundaries, too, as a- Yeah

as a queer person in the way that I express and dress. My music kind of is no different to my, my expression of myself. Like, some days I wear, [00:14:00] you know, trousers and a, and a jacket, and then some days I'm wearing a beautiful gown. Like, it's, it's the same with the music. For me, with Hazel Eyes, like, if it... I find it, you know, when people say there's so many genres in it, I'm like, "Oh, God.

Yeah, there is." Because I felt like for th- with Hazel Eyes, for the first time ever, I'm actually containing myself a little bit more. But there is so many genres in, on the album and, and so many things. I d- I just, I let myself be free when it comes to those things, and I, and I love that about myself and my music.

Jeffrey Masters: The new album, Hazel Eyes, it's, it's a, a big departure from the other last four albums. Um, like, this album both musically and, and the content of the songs is, is a new chapter. 

Sam Smith: Mm. 

Jeffrey Masters: Um, did you go to, into it with that goal? 

Sam Smith: Yeah. I mean, I, I... For me, this album was the biggest challenge as an artist because I, the way that I'd been making albums up to this point was in a very pop and fabulously commercial way.

I, I, I don't see a negative to that word for me. I love commercial pop music. Um, [00:15:00] but I produced a lot of the record and was hands-on with the making of the record more than ever before, and I wanted to stick to a, for me, a cohesive feel, that you could put the record on and stay in that world, whatever that world would be.

And so I set myself that task, and it was a huge task. It actually took a lot of courage, especially within, um, the industry and the way that people were used to me making music. Um, it- 

Jeffrey Masters: Wait, wait, sorry. S- I, I'm a layperson who doesn't understand it. Mm. Why did that take courage to do that? 

Sam Smith: Because I'm, I'm a pop artist, and the way that I would make music, you could hear the promise in the sound of the music that it could be a possible success.

I don't write music for that reason, by the way. I, I... Even if it sounds like I do when you listen to my music, that's not my intention. I love pop music, but when I'm aiming to write, like, a pop song, you know, you wanna lean into the catchiness of it so people get used to the, there being hooks within the song.

And [00:16:00] this album, I, when I was writing it, I stayed away from those, um, I think, choices sometimes to challenge myself and say, "Let's find a different type of hook," maybe a hook that comes two minutes into the song instead of 20 seconds into the song. You know? And something that builds to the greatest hook of all time.

I think My Guy builds to the most beautiful hook I've ever written. 

Track: Had him all the time

He's my God

Sam Smith: So it, it was just about structuring things differently in a way that pop heads and commercial people within the industry, you know, maybe aren't used to hearing as much. 

Jeffrey Masters: Yeah. 

Sam Smith: And so that felt I had to do that. I- 

Jeffrey Masters: i- in terms of the writing process, [00:17:00] I have a question, but I wanna play a clip or two clips from, from No God- Oh, oh.

From your last album. So I wanna, I wanna hear two things, which is that, um, there's the background nos. You no god. 

Track: No, no, no god.

Jeffrey Masters: And then there's also this like vocal distortion Those notes are so 

Sam Smith: nice. 

Jeffrey Masters: Yeah, this distortion

So, like- ... in the writing process, are you hearing that in your head and putting that down, or does that all come later? 

Sam Smith: That came in, that all comes from me in the studio afterwards, building the world around the lead vocal. So I, I, I put down the vocal when we've written the song, and then I, if the song requires it, I become my own choir.

I become my own [00:18:00] hype man. I become my own, um, like, I become my own sound effect. Like I, I create sounds and instruments with my voice. 

Jeffrey Masters: Give me an example of something. 

Sam Smith: I don't know. You can make, you can make drum beats- Okay ... through your voice, and you can, you can create like almost synth pads with your voice if you take it and then the computer changes it.

And so, you know, the Hazel Eyes record I just made, I did that a little bit with backing choirs and also singing parts. I, I mean, all over Hazel Eyes. All of, most of the production that on it, on it that I do is me singing parts to players and then them recreating it, playing it on another instrument. So that's what I do in the studio is I just vocally sing parts, sing things I hear, and then musicians would take that and interpret that or copy it.

And so that was Hazel Eyes, which was more like live people on instruments. But like the record I'm currently making right now after Hazel Eyes- 

Jeffrey Masters: Wait, wait, wait. You, wait, [00:19:00] you're... Hazel Eyes has not come out yet, but you still have another record you're working 

Sam Smith: on. I'm working on another record. Oh, really?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I'm, I'm inspired to do it, and I'm, and it's more electro and, um, more intense, and that's, you know, you know, I, I just make all different weird sounds and scream into the microphone and free myself and sometimes those things get turned into wild things you would never imagine. 

Jeffrey Masters: I- i- is the new, new, new record, the electro pop one, is that drawing from like this current phase of being in love as well?

Sam Smith: It is, but it's maybe more in a more naughty, playful way. Okay. Hazel Eyes is like this deep confession, a traditional, a new traditional queer love romance album. That's how I see it. And then I've just, whilst I've been making that, I'm also really hungry to shake my titties and, um, you know, encapsulate some of the really, the, the way that I feel in, in my relationship [00:20:00] where I feel I'm still 34 and I'm, uh, I love to dance and I'm free and I'm still inspired by like intense hyperpop electro sounds.

And so I'm, I'm also doing that too. 

Jeffrey Masters: Wow. I mean, that reminds me of, of Unholy, which is- Yeah ... arguably the biggest song of your career. 

Track: A lucky, lucky girl. She got married to a boy like you. She'd kick you out if she ever, ever knew. About all the you tell me that you do 

Jeffrey Masters: It went to number one, it won you a Grammy, and you've said that you got a lot of pushback from your team about releasing that.

Sam Smith: Mm. 

Jeffrey Masters: What was their reasoning for not releasing it? 

Sam Smith: It wasn't that they didn't want to release it, it was that they wanted it-- they didn't want it as the first single. And the battle that I, I started to get into a battle because I was like, "You're not hearing what I'm hearing." I then started to realize this is just like there's [00:21:00] something about the sex in the song and the sexuality in the music and, and the, also the fun and lightheartedness of it that I think just challenged some people's tastes.

When it came to me, I think that, you know, Unholy broke down what people think of me when they think of Sam Smith. And up until that point, you... a lot of people thought that my greatest strength was to sing heartbreak ballads. And so I think that Unholy challenged that and was just a hu- you know, a huge moment that kind of popped that bubble in my life, which I was...

and I was just so desperate to pop that bubble for so long. Unholy really encaptured my playful side and my, my humor in the music, and, um, and I just, I, you know, I championed that song from the beginning. 

Jeffrey Masters: I mean, I wrongly would have just assumed that you could release anything you, you wanted. 

Sam Smith: I can. Yeah.

Oh, I can release [00:22:00] whatever I want. But as a lead single, though. But, but I also, I listen to people around me- Oh, okay ... and what they think sometimes. Okay. You know? Like, I do. It's, it's like I, I think as in the pop world, I've, I've, I've actually enjoyed that back and forth sometimes with people around me and, and sometimes it's, it's actually done really well for me.

And, you know, I, I think labels get a very bad rep a, a lot of the time, and I understand why they do. There's a lot of issues but, um, I've worked with some unbelievably talented people, um, incredibly creative people who really love music, and they love pop music. And so I, you know, I, I honor those relationships sometimes, and I like to hear what they think.

And, you know, with Hazel Eyes, I've taken a, a step back from that a bit more, but it's a time and a place for those things and, and yeah. 

Jeffrey Masters: Did the success of Unholy, um, like, give you permission to like, to, to, to make, um, Hazel Eyes like, like, I don't wanna say weirder- Mm ... but like, to like, [00:23:00] go bigger and like, uh, further on it?

Sam Smith: It just, Unholy's given me permission just to do what I want now in my life, and it's not that it gave me permission with everyone else 'cause I could have always done what I wanted to do as an artist. I was never trapped in a, in a label situation where I was being forced to do anything I wasn't allowed to do.

Um, but it gave me... Seeing people's reaction to that song and them feeling me and my energy through that music, I was like, "That... You, you, you get me. You, you... I, I feel like I can express all shades and colors of myself now, um, with no kind of fear 

Jeffrey Masters: Y- you mentioned you're 34. How has your voice changed as you've gotten older?

Sam Smith: Oh my God, loads. I mean, it's lower than... I can sing lower than ever before. Um, my higher register is, is... I still sing in the heights, but it's a different tone. It's kind of a, a, a fuller sound. In my 20s I had fun. You know, I, [00:24:00] I on and off smoked a little bit in my 20s. Never like full-time smoker, but I on and off smoked.

I don't know if that had too much of an impact. I think the biggest impact on my voice and the changes have been the workload of singing. Um, I think that I have sacrificed, um, notes in my register from the amount of work and travel and touring and singing that I've done in my life. 

Jeffrey Masters: Really? 

Sam Smith: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've done, I can't countless, th- uh, pr- probably near to 1,000 shows, and I sing full out the whole time for two hours, you know, projecting to an audience.

It's, it, it takes a toll on your instrument after a while. 

Jeffrey Masters: I, I was curious because i- in the final track, uh, To Be Free- 

Sam Smith: Mm. ... 

Jeffrey Masters: you know, you open that track singing, um- "

Sam Smith: Pray your heart be lighter, brave and free like mine." 

Track: Pray your heart be light[00:25:00] 

Brave and free

Jeffrey Masters: The quality of your voice, it isn't something I'd heard before. 

Sam Smith: Yeah, it's a different... That was m- a different shape. I was kind of like the, the sound E, like that. I was... I put my mouth into like a shape like that when I was singing, and then I realized that if I just stay there and sing the verse, this completely different timbre came out.

Jeffrey Masters: So you're still learning, like- All the time ... the things 

Sam Smith: your voice can do. Yeah. My, my voice is gonna change forever. I like now that I sound completely different in some songs to other songs. I, I wish and hope for people to, to see that as a Sam, part of the Sam Smith music, is that you, y- you don't never know necessarily what you're gonna get.

Jeffrey Masters: Yeah. I- a- and technically that, the beginning of To Be Free, i- is that you, like, mixing your head, head and chest voice? Is that falsetto? Like, what is that? 

Sam Smith: I think it's like a mi- a bit of falsetto with chest, a kind of mix [00:26:00] together. 

Jeffrey Masters: Okay. 'Cause 

Sam Smith: I- It's also just the position of the day. I, like, when I sing that song now, that recording by the way was, um, I wrote, I sang that before I wrote Unholy.

Jeffrey Masters: Whoa. 

Sam Smith: Which is wild. 

Jeffrey Masters: Whoa. 

Sam Smith: Yeah. 

Jeffrey Masters: Oh, so that's been sitting, like, on your hard drive for years. 

Sam Smith: That, I wrote that the week I changed my pronouns. I wrote To Be Free, and I- Whoa ... and so it stayed, that song kind of stuck with me, and I was like, "I'm gonna return to this feeling, and I'm gonna make a whole album in this w- in this world," and I did.

Jeffrey Masters: O- w- we mentioned earlier in the conversation that, um, My Guy is written about your partner Christian Cowan. He's, he's a fashion designer. It was reported recently that you're engaged. Mm. Congratulations. 

Sam Smith: Thank you. Yeah. Ca- Thank you very much ... can I 

Jeffrey Masters: ask, uh, who proposed to who? 

Sam Smith: Oh, they, they are secrets I will never tell.

Okay. Let's- Not even in the music I would ever say. It was s- it's just too special. 

Jeffrey Masters: Um, thank you for the great conversation. 

Sam Smith: Thank you.

David Remnick: Sam Smith their album [00:27:00] Hazel Eyes comes out later this month and Jeffrey Masters is a producer at The New Yorker Radio Hour.