David Remnick: This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'm David Remnick. Over the last 30 years, tech companies, the upstarts of the business world back then became the business world. Microsoft is rated the most profitable company on the planet by some rankings. Apple and Alphabet, which owns Google, are way up there as well. Tech companies have amassed incredible power, their impacts on privacy, on mental health, on journalism, on just about everything. We're only beginning to understand it now.

One of the sharpest voices on the evolution of the tech industry, and often one of the funniest is the journalist Kara Swisher. She knows better than anyone how the internet came to define so much of our lives. Since the '90s, she's been influential and even feared in Silicon Valley. She's just published Burn Book, a tech love story. It begins with Kara Swisher's time at the Washington Post where we first met. I thought of you immediately some weeks ago when Tom Shales, the legendary Washington Post TV critic died.

Kara Swisher: Amazing guy.

David Remnick: It's my memory, it is my memory from a million years ago in the Washington Post newsroom when I was a child in the style section. Am I not crazy that you worked right close to him?

Kara Swisher: Yes. I was there. Yes, I was. I sat right next to him. Shales had an office next to Mary Hadar, and so--

David Remnick: The style editor.

Kara Swisher: Style editor. Yes. I love Shales. What a guy. What a guy. What a guy.

David Remnick: Kara, I've been looking forward to this for weeks and I have-

Kara Swisher: Me too.

David Remnick: -tons of questions to ask you about your book, which is so much fun and so interesting and the result of so many years of covering the tech world. I want to start out by asking you, how did you start to figure yourself out, what you wanted to be, who you wanted to be?

Kara Swisher: Well, one thing was I was gay and I knew it from a young age. A lot of people say, it occurred to me at 21 when I started to have feelings about Martina Navratilova.

David Remnick: [laughs]

Kara Swisher: It didn't, I knew when I was four years old. I was like, "Oh, I see." I sought out a lot of information about it. At the time, people don't remember this. I'm old, you're, I think around my same age, it was not good to be gay. It was not good. You had to hide it. It was furtive and all the negativity it can build the furtiveness particularly, and the hiding and pretending and a performative behavior. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I just had a real hard time with it.

David Remnick: When did it become an issue with other people in a sense?

Kara Swisher: One issue was I really very much wanted to go into the military. My dad was in the military and I had a real interest in it and couldn't, it was--

David Remnick: As I understand it, you either wanted to be in the military as an analyst or in the CIA-

Kara Swisher: Right. One of those. Yes.

David Remnick: -and you went the journalistic path instead went to Columbia J School, I think.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I did. It was a different path. It was a similar thing. It was about analysis, and I had been super interested in scenario building. That was what really attracted me to intelligence work. It's like if this, then that. If this, I was always, I loved a puzzle and I loved to-- If this happens, if you know certain information, you input it. It tracked with journalism. I wasn't journalist in high school. It was college where I started at Georgetown. Also, I thought I could change people's minds in a way. A lot of things that were [crosstalk]

David Remnick: But about what? In other words, we know you for years and years now about your connection to tech. When did that subject either land in your head or on your lap or something? How did that arise?

Kara Swisher: I went to the post and I was the young person on the staff like I was. They're like, "Young person go out to AOL, visit them." It wasn't at the time, it was more news about contractors, government contractors and assemblers of computer systems, which CSI. There was-- I forget the names of them all, but they all had acronyms in their names. This was AOL and nobody knew what to make of it. I had gotten interested in it early on because I had a fellowship at Duke and I had started to really use these devices. I was dating someone who lived in the former Soviet Union.

We were using all kinds of weird internet protocols to communicate because phone calls were prohibitively expensive. I was always drawn to this. Then I noticed it everywhere. For example, remember the teletype machine at the Washington Post that was at the entrance right there on the fifth floor. I kept staring at it. I'm like, "Why do they look, have that, why do they need that? It's all going to be in the computer." I kept saying that to people and they're like, "Kara, move away from the teletype machine."

David Remnick: [laughs]

Kara Swisher: I was like, "What? It's an antique. Don't you understand?" I just got interested and no one wanted to do it. That's really pretty much it. Once I got there and saw what AOL was doing, it fit in with my worldview about propaganda and about misinformation, but not just that, but about information, a global information system. Then I started to focus on the post because when I saw Craigslist, I was like, "Oh, classified are screwed." Then when news was free, I was like, "My own business is going to get killed here. What do we do here?" That's where I got interested.

David Remnick: At a certain point, it seemed to me reading you that your tone shifted, you became more skeptical of the big figures, in fact skeptical to the point of you seem to, you can't stand some of them. You are brutally, brutally justifiably critical of them in your book. If it's possible to put your thumb on it. What was the first example of when that penny dropped and you said this is deeply problematic and nobody's seen it?

Kara Swisher: I think initially when one time, there were several different times when Google tried to buy Yahoo and wanted 90 some percent of the search market. I'm sorry, that was a monopoly. I had covered the Microsoft trial for the Washington Post peripherally. They were acting like, "No, no, no, this is, we're nice." I'm like, "Oh, I don't think anyone should have nine. I don't care how nice you are. The next person might not be nice." I was like, "Huh."

Then when Google again started copying books on their own and just doing it and recording live television, I was like, "You don't have any respect for copyright. This thing costs money. What are you doing?" It felt like shoplifting to me. They're like, "No, no, no, Kara, it's for the people." I'm like, "Well, the only people that seem to be doing well financially, are you? Like, I don't know. It seems--"

David Remnick: There seem to be almost a kind of-- When we look back at the robber barons, we look back at other tycoons in the past who were exploitative and awful, somehow this breed they wore turtlenecks. They were young.

Kara Swisher: Not turtlenecks, just be clear. T-shirts and hoodies.

David Remnick: Hoodies.

Kara Swisher: Yes, they did. Actually, one of the first stories I wrote at the journal was about that ridiculous performative stuff. They only like tacos and they only go to burrito places except it was all catered in. Or these titles that they had Chief Yahoo, or Chief Experience Officer, and I'm not the CEO, Well, the only one who did it, like honestly was I'm the CEO, Bitch which was Mark Zuckerberg. I appreciated that at least. I was like, "Okay, thank you."

David Remnick: [laughs]

Kara Swisher: A lot of them had this thing and they'd be like, "You know, I'm just like everyone else." I'm like, "Hmm, you seem to own most of the company and you're in charge, but you want to pretend you're not in charge. If it was a community, why don't we benefit? Why don't we get some of the money?" That happened with AOL. There was an event where Steve Case said we make $54 from each customer. I forget what it was for each user, and I put my hand up. I'm like, "Oh, if we're making $54 off of me, where's my [unintelligible 00:07:49] where's my part? Where's my half of that?"

David Remnick: [laughs]

Kara Swisher: Because it's my information. A banker is not going to tell you, "I'm here for you, Dave. I'm here because I want a community of money." You'd laugh him out of the room, anyway.

David Remnick: Let's jump in and talk about what seems to me a really pivotal moment in your book. December 2016, there's a meeting that the newly elected Donald Trump had with tech leaders, including Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella-

Kara Swisher: Satya Nadella.

David Remnick: -and you described this as a major turning point on how you view the tech industry. Why is that?

Kara Swisher: That's correct. The first sentence of this book is, "It was capitalism after all." These people had decried Trump to me privately over and over again, he's not going to win. He's a clown. He's not going to do what he says. Musk would said that too. Like, he's the only one he really did own up to it like that. He said it. Their need for money. These were the richest people on the planet, right?

David Remnick: Yes.

Kara Swisher: They walked into this meeting, which I scooped this story. Nobody knew they were going. Can you imagine meeting the president and not saying anything, because they were embarrassed? Yet they wanted to get their repatriated income. They wanted to get their tax breaks, they wanted to get no regulation continuing. They wanted that to keep going on that game to still go on.

I couldn't believe they went into the meeting as the most richest and most powerful people on the planet and didn't say anything about immigration, gay rights that they had talked about, caring about, and at least immigration. I thought they'd say something, because this guy was way out there on Muslims and on immigrants. He had called them rapists. Two of the people in there were immigrants, Satya Nadella and Elon Musk.

I was like, "Do you have nothing to say what you want from this person? Given your enormous power? Collectively, you're like nation-states. You have nothing to say?" They were so like, "We know better, we'll handle it." Then I thought, "No, no, you're just going to go in the special room and close the door on the rest of us, and the rest of us are going to pay the price for what happens here." That was enough. It had been building, but that was-- I shouldn't been so naive, but I guess I was.

David Remnick: I'm talking with the journalist Kara Swisher, author of Burn Book: A Tech Love Story. We'll continue in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around.

[music]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I've been speaking today with Kara Swisher, one of the most authoritative journalists on the tech industry to date. Swisher has just published Burn Book. That's not the Burn Book of Mean Girls fame, although the title is probably no coincidence at all. This Burn Book is subtitled A Tech Love Story. Swisher has become disenchanted, even enraged over the years, by the constant violations of users' privacy, monopolistic practices, and the way these companies have consistently ignored disinformation and mental health impacts. She eventually fell out with some of the leading tech people who had been her subjects and her sources.

I'll continue my conversation with Kara Swisher. Let's talk about somebody who is a very vivid presence in your book. You write that in these early days, you used to always be able to count on Elon Musk to answer your phone calls and "engage with me on a semi-human basis". When did that change? Because on October 17th of '22, he sent you an email with the subject line, You're an asshole." What was he reacting to?

Kara Swisher: One thing that's really interesting is I really did like, and people go, "How dare you have liked him?" I'm like, "What do you want me to say? I did. I'm not apologizing for that."

David Remnick: The New Yorker wrote a quite positive profile of him back when he was mainly about electric cars.

Kara Swisher: Right. Electric cars? It wouldn't have been where it was without Elon Musk. Sorry, people. I know you hate him, but that's the facts. That's the facts. He really pushed it forward. Same thing with rockets. He changed the dynamic. I remember him calling me once so excited that he got a contract from the government because Lockheed and the rest of those people had it locked up. I agreed with him, "Good. Yay. Someone else is allowed in." The stuff he was doing was innovative and lowering costs. I appreciate that. Although, I don't love the government completely stepping out and letting private companies run everything. I've never feel good about that.

At the time, as you recall, everyone else was building, and I use this example a lot, but a digital dry cleaning service or a digital maid service, or a digital kombucha delivery service.

David Remnick: [laughs]

Kara Swisher: When you get 400 calls like that, David, from these smart people, you literally want to hit yourself with the cell phone on the head. You're like, "I cannot listen to this crap anymore." When someone comes with big ideas, you welcome them. I welcome that among Elon. I don't know what happened to him. I'm not his mama and I'm not a psychiatrist, but I think as he got richer and richer. There's always enablers around people that make them think they hung the moon. I think that can be very deleterious. Real wealth is mostly deleterious on people's psyche unless you have a very strong psyche.

Then during COVID, we had an interview, and he got very angry because I disagreed with him that COVID might affect more than zero people. He went on and on about how

much he knew. He read all the studies. I didn't read all the studies he read. I was like-

David Remnick: He did his own research [crosstalk] the moment.

Kara Swisher: -"Okay, right." Then he started to sound like those crazies online. I was like, "I don't think you know. I don't think any of us know." So, "Okay, sure, genius."

David Remnick: [laughs]

Kara Swisher: He began to dawn on me, and then he became even worse. Then with Twitter, when he bought it, he and I had a long exchange, which I have in the book about what to do about Twitter, because I love Twitter. So did he. He loved the product. I have a great--

David Remnick: Do you still love Twitter?

Kara Swisher: No, I'm not on it at all. He and I had an exchange because I thought he could do a good-- It needed a jolt because its business model was terrible for its entire history. Its stock price stayed in the doldrums. It was a very slow-moving company, but still a terrific product at its heart. Then something happened. I got to tell you, I don't know. He never seemed bothered by disagreement and then he was, but exceptionally so. Let me just tell you, this is what dawned on me. He loves video games. This guy loves video games like he can't believe. He thinks he's ready player one.

This is what Ben Mezrich pointed out to me and I think he was correct. He thinks he's the main character in the video game and the rest of us can be shot or done or we don't exist, and it dovetails into his ideas around simulation. He thinks this is a simulation.

David Remnick: The whole world that he live in.

Kara Swisher: I don't know if you know that. Yes. He's talked about it in an interview with me several times. He thinks this isn't real and except he's the main character. Oh, then it makes sense to you when you put that into it.

David Remnick: Wow.

Kara Swisher: You're like, "Oh, I see. He's the main character." It doesn't matter what he says.

David Remnick: Unless I'm crazy, a politics has taken hold since 2016-

Kara Swisher: Oh, yes.

David Remnick: -and it's deepened. There's a kind of libertarian right wing, I can solve all problems. It's rooted in something that I recognized years before this. You'd go into a conversation with someone like Marc Andreessen who is by definition intelligent as an investor.

Kara Swisher: Really?

David Remnick: God knows how much money. He's an investor. A lot of these guys, you meet with them and they don't just know what they know. They know everything.

Kara Swisher: That's correct. Yes, he's not [crosstalk]

David Remnick: Climate change. Well, you put a garden hose up in the air and you spritz and everybody else is stupid. That this is psychology as well as an emerging politics. Talk about what that politics is in 2024 and who's got it.

Kara Swisher: It's literally people who are safe and rich and are unaffected and will be building that little castle in the sky that they're going to fly to when the rest of us are choking down here. They know better. You're wrong. You've done it wrong. The media has done it wrong. The government's done it wrong. We know better when they have lives full of mistakes. They just paper them over. They have such a cynical view of people and ultimately, I don't think they like people. I think they find governing shabby and then they pontificate of what we should do.

Then not just that, they actually have influence like with Elon in Crimea and things. They don't just pontificate because that I can deal with. You're just a blowhard. [crosstalk]

David Remnick: They have decisive influence. If somebody like-

Kara Swisher: They have decisive influence.

David Remnick: -Elon Musk's system of satellites has been incredibly influential in the war in Ukraine.

Kara Swisher: Which, let me tell you, is an innovative and interesting thing he did, but should he be deciding what to geofence? I think not, but he can.

David Remnick: Right. You point out in the book, Kara, that in the last 25 years of the internet age, our government leaders have passed zero, zero-

Kara Swisher: Zero.

David Remnick: -privacy protections. They haven't updated any trust laws or addressed its impact on mental health, especially teenagers.

Kara Swisher: Privacy, no.

David Remnick: When it comes to regulating these companies, Facebook, Amazon, Google, where should we start and where do you see any leadership coming from?

Kara Swisher: Well, let me put aside one thing. First of all, self-regulation is not going to work. Let that airline self-regulate, let banks self-regulate, we see where that's gone. Let me tell you, let's start with the premises. No regulation is going to work quite well enough. The government falls down on the job a lot of times, but at least there's some semblance of guardrails and all those industries. When the door blew off the Alaska thing, there was so many investigations. People were fired. There's implications for mistakes at Lockheed. The government investigated. There's going to be fines. There's going to be lawsuits. Everybody gets to go around the thing for one door, one door.

Today, two stories, one in the Wall Street Journal, and this is not a news story, one in the New York Times about the impact on young girls of internet and sexualization of young girls. Two stories. Are you kidding me? No. Who gets fired? Who's getting fired here? Who's getting sued? This is astonishing to me.

David Remnick: What's the dynamic behind it? Why is there no great regulation there? It's just-

Kara Swisher: Money.

David Remnick: -sheer amount of money.

Kara Swisher: Money. Money is one thing, but it's not the only thing. It's one that the politicians, first they were scared of it and didn't know what they were talking about. That I get from any new industry. Now there's plenty of people who know stuff. Amy Klobuchar, Senator Warner, Senator Bennet, Mike Gallagher, who just left, I think is very smart about these issues. I don't agree with him on everything. Ken Buck was another person.

David Remnick: I was amazed, Kara. Quite frankly, I was watching the CEO of Condé Nast testify about AI to a Senate subcommittee, and a few other people were testifying. Josh Hawley, who's very far on-

Kara Swisher: Smart.

David Remnick: -the right on most of these, was very smart about AI and the possibility of how it could be terrible. Sometimes you'd watch committee meetings and people had no idea how to turn on a phone or what, how Google made money. It was pathetic.

Kara Swisher: That was Orrin Hatch. That was the Orrin Hatch moment when he said like, "How do you make money?" They take advantage of that. Look, again, I'm not going to blame these companies. This is what capitalistic companies do, get every edge they can for their shareholders. This is their charge. I think that the government has abrogated. Now, not all states have. California has been very aggressive, certain states have, and in the negative way, they've been aggressive.

In Texas, some of these loony laws that they're trying to pass. Into the breach of federal regulation has come all kinds of a patchwork of some are good, some bad, and all very confusing. In confusion, these big companies get bigger. Nvidia is now a $2 trillion company. Apple's a multi-trillion-dollar company. Microsoft.

David Remnick: Video which makes the chips that presumably is going to power AI.

Kara Swisher: That's correct. That's the latest one. These are nation-states. Let's try to be clear, and they are affecting us. What's astonishing is, when cars didn't have airbags or opiates were used, they got sued. You can't sue these people. You can't get them out of power.

David Remnick: Why not?

Kara Swisher: Section 230.

David Remnick: Explain.

Kara Swisher: A lot of these companies, the early ones, if people posted on their things, they'd get sued by the person and then they would die in the crib essentially because of lawsuits. That is absolutely true. Now it protects them from liability in a lot of instances where they shouldn't be protected. Now, listen, I am not with the people that want to just get rid of it, because that's also stupid, but we need to think about how we want to cover liability. We're doing it again. We're such an innovative country in terms of allowing innovation. The worries I have is that right now in generative AI, it's so expensive.

Everyone was like, "Sam Altman's raising $7 trillion for a new chip thing." I'm like, "That's not an enough." It's crazy, but it's expensive. Therefore, the only people that are going to dominate are the big companies, not the small ones, so where is the innovation going to come about if these giant companies control every bit of information? How are you going to fight copyright issues? David, you must be concerned with them ingesting all your content. Condé Nast has got to be losing its mind over this. but do you have the firepower to fight them? Copyright laws are pretty good, by the way.

That's a good way to go at these people, but at some point, it won't be because Barry Diller's fighting, The New York Times is fighting them, because you know what they did last time. This time, they're not just-

David Remnick: This is it. In a sense, this is the second time around.

Kara Swisher: It's worse, because David, they're not just going to links. They're not just controlling people getting to you, which is getting to your site. They're going in and taking the content and vomiting it back up. That's theft. I don't know. That seems like theft to me on a very basic level.

David Remnick: If you're sitting as the head of the New York Times or Condé Nast or the Washington Post, what would you ask for, demand, stamp your feet about from the tech companies where AI is concerned?

Kara Swisher: Pay me for my stuff. You can't walk into my store and take all my Snickers bars and say it's for fair use. What are you talking about? Get into legislation. Bother the senators and con-- you have increasingly less power over time. They have increasing power. Get in there and say, "They stole my stuff, sir, and I would like to either get paid for it-

David Remnick: By the way, stole it again.

Kara Swisher: Stole it again. They didn't steal it the first time. Not quite.

David Remnick: Explain.

Kara Swisher: They didn't distribute it. They choked the means of distribution and then they stole the advertising business. Now, fair and square, they stole it. Remember when everyone was taking Facebook money? Remember they were giving you money. I don't know if you guys did.

David Remnick: Of course I remember.

Kara Swisher: They came to me. Sheryl Sandberg herself came to me and said, "We want you to be part of this new thing." I go, "You want my stuff for free?" She's like, "Yes, because then you'll get more distribution." I go, "You want my stuff for free?" "No. How about no?"

David Remnick: There's a lovely moment toward the end of the book, and you write this, "When I started covering the nascent sector in the 1990s, meaning tech, I truly believed in tech's ability to transform the world, to solve problems that had plagued us for centuries, and allow us to finally see our commonality over all our differences. There's not just kind of tech futurism. There's this a sense of a new politics, of a world transformed. When did you lose that sense, if you have?

Kara Swisher: I have not.

David Remnick: You have not.

Kara Swisher: I have not. I'm a Trekie. I said my heart. I use that analogy because Steve Jobs did and I did too, is that there is a Star Trek version of the universe where we ultimately all get along, even despite the problems, and there's always problems, but often in Star Trek, if you notice, if you really pay attention, villains turn into good people.

David Remnick: They do.

Kara Swisher: But in Star Wars, that is not the mood of that.

David Remnick: It's intergalactic battle.

Kara Swisher: Science fiction. It's an intergalactic battle, and evil wins a lot. Even at the end, it's not a victory. Victory is never assured. I do believe that technology can bring us together. It can make a better world. It can make better drugs. It can make us live longer and better.

David Remnick: Arguably the worst problem we face is climate change.

Kara Swisher: Climate change.

David Remnick: Is technology going to have a magic wand for that?

Kara Swisher: I love when you said shoot a hose in the sky because I've been in that meeting too, where they get like, [unintelligible 00:24:49]. I'm open to all ideas, but it's an existential threat. My fear is, their plan is to-- there's one, I'm not going to say who it is, but one of these guys told me their plan for ecological collapse, like the apocalypses. Their apocalypse plan, and they have them. You've written about them. You wrote about them, right? Wasn't it you guys who wrote about--

David Remnick: Evan [crosstalk] written about you when go off to New Zealand and you hide in a bunker.

Kara Swisher: They had a motorcycle at their house, a speedy motorcycle that would get them to their place in Big Sur. They told me where it was. Like, "It's here and it's got a bunker. It goes down, it locks this. I've got this food, I've got this. Told me the whole-- was fascinating. It was fascinating listening to it." I was like, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, interesting." It had everything. They had a garden, they had the whole water, blah, blah, blah, blah, electricity, generator. They said, "What's your plan?" I said, "My plan is to come to your house with a gun and shoot you and take your motorcycle. That's my plan, and invite all my friends."

Of course, I could hear the click, click, click in their head like, "How am I going to stop this lesbian with a gun? What am I going to do? Because they're pretty good guns, those lesbians." You could hear it. He was like, "That was a contingency I hadn't thought of." Anyway, I'm not going to shoot him. I might, I don't.

David Remnick: Kara, thank you so much.

Kara Swisher: This is great.

David Remnick: Kara Swisher's Burn Book is just out.

 

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