David Remnick: John Fetterman has cut a unique figure in American politics since he came to national attention. He's from a well-to-do Republican family, and he emerged as a progressive Democrat, a fighter on issues affecting the working class. He seemed a sort of Rust Belt Bernie Sanders rocking a hoodie and cargo shorts. He won the Senate race in 2022 against Dr. Mehmet Oz, who was endorsed by Donald Trump, and that was despite Fetterman suffering a stroke during the campaign.

More recently, though, Fetterman has come to stand out in some very different ways. After the election, he went to Mar-a-Lago and met with Donald Trump. He joined Truth Social. He voted to confirm Pam Bondi as Attorney General, the only Democrat to do so, and that was after Bondi gave every indication that she would use the Justice Department to pursue Trump's political opponents. Fetterman also gave his support to Trump's notion that the United States could one day take over Gaza and develop it as a real estate project.

Over time at the Radio Hour, we want to provide a deep as well as a rounded view of what's happening now in Washington. Senator Fetterman, in both his ideas and his presentation, is an outlier among the Senate Democrats. What is he doing and why? I spoke with John Fetterman last week.

You went down to Mar-a-Lago to talk to Trump. Tell me about your conversation with him in Mar-a-Lago and just as much, what was the reaction among your colleagues?

John Fetterman: Well, there really wasn't any reaction. People here in the Senate, they're very, I don't know, very polite. Even after Menendez, Menendez was walking around and people would be like, "Oh, what happened to you?"

David Remnick: [laughs]

John Fetterman: They're not talking about the gold bar. No one's asking, "Hey, how many gold bars were in your mattress?" kind of thing. People, now, they weren't talking about it or anything. I don't think it was controversial, but for me, it was a decision where, and of course, I never exactly knew how that was going to look going down there, but I had the opportunity to sit down and meet with the president. To me, I thought that was I doing my job. Because, for me, I want to find things that we can work together, and there's going to be a lot that I'm going to disagree.

They don't need my vote or any Democratic vote for a lot of the things that they're going to want to do. They're not going to have a lot of support for much of it anyway. I don't think it was controversial. Some people may have found that controversial, but for me, it's just doing a job and having a conversation. I would like to remind everybody, more Americans picked him to be president than my team. That doesn't mean that half our nation are fascist or they're terrible or that.

David Remnick: A lot of your colleagues and a lot of people think that this is an exceptional thing, that Donald Trump is not what used to be called a conventional Republican, and that this is something different, threatening, and to visit him in Mar-a-Lago represented, and I'm representing the view of many people, not necessarily my own, but represented an accommodation to that reality.

John Fetterman: No. We work together, the Senate, by definition. Meeting with the president, that's not capitulation. That's just us meeting with the president and you're in the Senate. The people that are saying that are ones that aren't tasked to try to get things done. For me, that's the cheap shots from the cheap seats. Because for me, having a conversation doesn't change anything. It just means like, hey, maybe we can find out something that we can work together. Otherwise, maybe not.

David Remnick: Pam Bondi. Tell me about your vote on Pam Bondi as opposed to your other ones. Why did you vote for her?

John Fetterman: Well, her vote wasn't really supposed to be controversial, but the whole vibe changed dramatically and many of my colleagues weren't going to-- It was going to try to find people that were more conventional and qualified compared to people that there's no way they could possibly work with those things. Trying to find those people. I voted for other ones, like Duffy, and I worked for people that they're not my choices. I think all of us in the Senate, we voted for Rubio, too. Our politics are different.

Now here doing things that I don't necessarily agree on, all of those things. That's part of it. It didn't use to be super controversial for people of the other party voting for people in their cabinet because that's the way the rules work. When you have to work with people and if you are able to develop a relationship, otherwise they don't need any of these votes. They could just tell us to sit in the corner because we have 50, 51, 52, or even 53 votes here, so this person's definitely going to have the job.

David Remnick: If I get your views right, you were open to hearing about waste and fraud and abuse, but over the past few days, maybe you've been talking a lot about, for example, Musk's access to IRS data as a violation of privacy. Are you changing on Musk and his role in government?

John Fetterman: I'm changing is that the second you become a chaos agent, or the party now is perceived publicly that they are the party of chaos, then that means ultimately you're going to lose the next election because no one wants to vote for chaos. We all voted for, hey, we want to make our government more efficient. We want to save our money. Remember, we have about $36 trillion of debt. It's reasonable to say, "Hey, now let's remake our government." The second you become chaos, and then that makes it much more difficult, and it makes it virtually impossible to defend those kinds of things.

When you're able to penetrate even to your people, when I'm walking around in Costco and I'm like, "Hey, I'm freaking out about this. I'm really concerned about that," and stopping, if they're here to buy a chicken or to buy toilet paper, and the front and center is like, "Hey, this is really freaking out," that really penetrated. I didn't have that kind of energy on the ground in Pennsylvania when he announced he was going to be involved in the campaign. In fact, for a lot of people, that was the feature of the Trump campaign, and that started to turn into more of chaos.

That's why I'm saying it's like folks were voting and believed in the DOGE vision, and I'm not sure what you're getting out for the chaos. I think two things should be true, that if you want to save money, we want to find ways to make us more efficient, but not do it in a way that is a chaos bomb and makes it virtually impossible for people to find allies when you are involved in this process.

David Remnick: I think some people would say that chaos is exactly what Donald Trump wants Elon Musk to carry on.

John Fetterman: That's possible, too. They just want chaos. Absolutely. That's the campaign. He did sign up on that. I would remind everybody, this is Trump's last term, so he's not ever going to be accountable to voters more. He ran on that idea like, "We are going to shake things up. We are about revenge. We are about making sure that view is made front and center." That is happening, yes. If chaos is the entire point, then that's-- I don't think a lot of people voted for that. I think that they wanted corrected chaos, not just chaos for chaos.

David Remnick: There's a lot of worry out there, maybe even among your voters as well, about the creation of a kind of oligarchy in which the president, together with Elon Musk and others like him, are creating a kind of oligarchic structure that's outsized, that's far more than ever before. Do you share that concern?

John Fetterman: I'm not sure a lot of people, average people, know what an oligarch is. That's like the weird terms that get thrown around and people not really sure what that really means. It's like populism. If you could show up in a Walmart parking lot, it's like, what's an oligarch? For me, I've described that money is the real cancer there. Now, Musk discovered now he has the ability to move the needle and helping with money.

Now, Trump has the kind of unlimited resources that now it can keep his senators and other House members in line, that if they don't follow that, well, you can dump 20, 30, or $40 million into a primary and we can punish people that may not happen to agree with him or willing to vote for his nominees. You've seen that happen as well. Unlimited money has turned all of us in some way into all OnlyFans models in some way. We're all just online hustling for money. With the more lug that we show, that makes more money. It's not a lot of dignity in that racket either as well, too.

David Remnick: You feel it yourself as a senator that you're a member of the OnlyFans culture?

John Fetterman: Well, I'm not, because I'm not the guy that's-- I all know what helps pay the bills and brings money in and going on MSNBC and yelling and saying a lot of provocative things. I have colleagues that are doing those things. I think if you look back on their first quarter, it's probably going to be pretty strong. A lot of the things that are being said by those things that are very provocative to generate a lot of coverage, I guarantee you that ended up in a fundraising email or in other kinds of fundraising as well.

David Remnick: I'd love to know, you're in close touch with your voters. You go to Pennsylvania all the time. The president's approval rating by the standards of recent times is pretty high. What is it that he's doing that voters in Pennsylvania like? What are they more anxious about after a month of this presidency?

John Fetterman: I think the people that voted for him largely love what they've seen. The second the chaos touches their lives, if they're farmers now that they're not able to sell their goods, or if the steelworkers lose their jobs, or if the chaos touches their lives, then that's going to change that, or if you destroy the Department of Education. Again, going after education, that's a loser. We've witnessed that same kind of moves with Tom Corbett. That was the first-term Republican governor.

David Remnick: Governor of Pennsylvania.

John Fetterman: Yes. That used to be a layup for a second term of governor. My governor, Tom Wolf, beat him and he pushed back and he beat an incumbent, which that's ever the first time that ever happened in Pennsylvania, going against education. Red kids, blue kids, every kid needs to-- they have to read. All average voters, they are like, "Hey." That's one of those bipartisan things, education. If you go against education, that's going to become part of the chaos. Maybe they just want to make it just for chaos on for chaos. You're not going to have people buying in, a majority getting involved on that.

David Remnick: You've always been a huge advocate of the trans community, despite being generally anti-woke, as a lot of people put it. I'd like to hear you talk about the human and political impact of what Trump's various trans bans have been in the military and sports and cutting off gender-affirming care. How do you feel about that?

John Fetterman: For me, it's not about what's woke. For me, it's that I'm never going to pick on anyone and I'm never going to turn that into a punching bag. I'm never going to derive some kind of political capital off of degrading a fellow human being is that. For me, that's what's personal. In that video that I stood up for the trans community, I know it's politically, but that's exactly the time I wanted to lean on that.

This is Senator John Fetterman. I'm standing in front of my office and two flags that are two core values of mine. I am unapologetically pro-military, also very pro for the LGBTQ communities, and I would like to remind everybody-- For me, I'd like to remind everybody it was really controversial to desegregate our military. It was very controversial. Our gay Americans were not able to serve, and now women weren't going to be involved to serve in combat roles. Now, all of that, that's not controversial anymore. That's what's understood to be making a stronger military.

I think the trans thing, for me, it's about the dignity of the soldier, and I'm never going to support degrading somebody's dignity. Some Americans have been kind of-- they thought that became too woke or that the Democratic Party became too preoccupied with that. The Harris is for they/them, Trump is for you kind of a thing. For me, it's not about woke.

David Remnick: What is too woke in your mind? An example?

John Fetterman: I think that the Democratic Party increasingly get it more and more difficult for men, specifically white men, to make that choice. I think it's incredibly difficult sometimes. As long as the party makes it more and more difficult for men, then ultimately they're going to--

David Remnick: That's what I'm asking you. What is it that the Democratic Party does or supports that makes it especially difficult for white men? Are these cultural issues, economic issues? What are the specifics that you hear from your voters and that you agree with?

John Fetterman: I think one of the Republican superpowers is they're immune to cancel culture. People are more free to not have to-- they don't have to have a very strict kind of orthodox that if you don't agree with that, that must make you a bad person, that might make you a racist, that might make you homophobic, or those kinds of things.

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David Remnick: I'm speaking with Senator John Fetterman of Pennsylvania. Our conversation continues in a moment. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour.

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David Remnick: This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I'm speaking today with John Fetterman, senator from Pennsylvania. Since the election, Fetterman has been highly critical of his own party, the Democrats, at certain times. Earlier, he told me that the Democratic Party has managed to discourage male voters, particularly white men, and Fetterman has really bucked his party in his fervent, nearly unqualified support of the Israeli government in its war in Gaza. In fact, some people have speculated that he might even switch parties, something that Fetterman denies, and we'll get to that. He went so far as to embrace Donald Trump's suggestion that the United States might even take control of the Gaza Strip.

One issue where I think I disagree with you, and I really want to hear you out on this, is that Donald Trump got up at a press conference, standing next to Benjamin Netanyahu, and talked about the possibility of the United States, and he used the word own, the United States owning Gaza and for the people of Gaza to be sent elsewhere, Jordan, Egypt, wherever, and that this be made into, and this was his term, not mine, the Riviera of the Middle East. You seem much more sympathetic to this possibility, certainly than any major Democrat that I've heard.

John Fetterman: No, I never thought that was serious. I think that was designed to be very provocative and they wanted to shock the nations in the region where it's like either if we can get this right, especially after it happened, what, 10/7. They've been unable to just deliver a stable society and prosperity for the Palestinians. Well then, hey, we have to have and drop these kinds of radical, shocking kinds of ideas.

David Remnick: Is that what a president should do just to provoke and not be serious on that kind of stage?

John Fetterman: No, I think there's a lot of experts that have been really wrong about the situation here after a 10/7. I think it was always right to follow. I followed Netanyahu through that because, to me, that was following Israel. I think the smart thing was we have to break in and seriously degrade Hamas, where they've done that. They did that same with Hezbollah as well too.

Hezbollah, everybody thought that Hezbollah was the ultimate badass in the Middle East. It turned out they really didn't have those kind of capabilities. Then they also discovered that Iran never had these kinds of capabilities too, and not able to protect and project those kind of values to create and fund that kind of axis of evil there in the Middle East now too. Now that same thing happened in Syria as well too. Everybody, all the so-called experts, were wrong. Israel did those kinds of very difficult things to develop, and that's the first opportunity to have actual real peace in that region.

David Remnick: What do you think is the desirable outcome in Gaza?

John Fetterman: The desirable outcome is a state, a nation, whatever, is that they're going to turn their back on this idea.

David Remnick: A Palestinian state?

John Fetterman: I mean, whatever, but just a state of some kind. The final outcome, the ideal outcome, is that Palestinians would have a state or Gaza or whatever, that their government is not front and center and they're committed to destroying Israel, and they could focus on building their nation instead of trying to destroy Israel.

David Remnick: One other foreign policy question. The United States has just held meetings with Russian representatives in Riyadh, in Saudi Arabia. Presumably, this is going to lead to-- The hope is that it will lead to peace talks between Russia and Ukraine. Pete Hegseth's already said that NATO membership for Ukraine is out of the question. The Ukrainians are deeply, deeply worried that they will be left with losing 20% of their territory and that they will remain vulnerable to Russian attack again. Who do you sympathize with in this horrific situation?

John Fetterman: Oh, well, I'll never understand the way the Trump administration seems to have this weird kind of dynamic relationship with Putin. I'll never understand or respect that. When I was growing up, hey, Russia was the bad guy. It's like I grew up maybe Red Dawn and used to cheer for Wolverines. It was all understood. I'll never understand that. To me, their struggle with Ukraine was no different than in Israel or what's going on Taiwan. For me, it's a war on democracy. Now, we're always going to stand for democracies.

David Remnick: The Trump administration appears to be violating some court orders, and they've been shuttering government agencies without congressional approval. You've said, though, that this is not a constitutional crisis. If it's not a constitutional crisis, what is it? Where are we on this really vital issue?

John Fetterman: By definition, if they defy court ruling or from the Supreme Court, then, by definition, that is a constitutional crisis.

David Remnick: Do you think we're headed there?

John Fetterman: It's absolutely possible. That's possible. You're not going to see me on MSNBC or on a nation yelling and screaming that we are in constitutional crisis. When we arrive at that one, I'll be the first person to describe that to people, that we are in a constitutional crisis. Absolutely, the Trump administration is going to test and push the boundaries, and the second he defies a court ruling, then by definition, that is a constitutional crisis.

David Remnick: Let's talk about politics ahead. What kind of politician is required by the Democrats to be more successful in the road ahead, whether it's 2026 or 2028? Because certainly something was missing.

John Fetterman: I think I want to be the honest one. I'm punished in terms of fundraising or that I'm not the one yelling and screaming and jumping on and saying the things. I'm not dumb. I know what's selling right now, but I'm committed to being-- I'm never going to lie to you and I'm not going to tell you everything's awesome. I think, for me, I'm going to move against my own political interest and try to say the things that people may not agree or whatever.

The border, that's another one. I tried to explain that there's rage on the ground over a border. The chaos and the Democrats, we got the border wrong, and we're going to pay for that. Then I paid for that to have those views. I think the Democratic Party was wrong on Israel, and I followed Israel through that. I was trying to warn that Trump's coming in hard and we really ought to watch out. That's turned out the case as well, too. Now I'm trying to describe where we are right now, and perhaps maybe that's not what's necessary or what's wanted.

David Remnick: Do you feel that you have very few allies in the Senate?

John Fetterman: Yes, I do feel I do not have a lot.

David Remnick: Are there any allies?

John Fetterman: [chuckles] I don't know. It's not saying that they won't sit next to me or anything.

David Remnick: [laughs]

John Fetterman: It's been difficult. Remember, a lot of my colleagues come from much different kinds of backgrounds or they have a much different kinds of situation in their own states. The presidency is determined on the kinds of states like my own. I don't know. Well, a critical mass of people will appreciate being a Democrat that's trying to be honest and describe things, what happened and why it was going to happen, and remembering that the polling has this almost at 6 out of 10 view us as a seriously damaged brand. It's like it's not criticizing Democrats that sell that right now, but I'm trying to describe what happened.

In the Pennsylvania State Senate, we've been in an effective minority position, permanent minority. I'm concerned about that here in the United States Senate. Regardless, whoever is going to be the next president, if they hold the Senate, you're never going to pass any kind of legislation.

David Remnick: Where do you connect with Bernie Sanders? It seems in some ways you do.

John Fetterman: No, we don't really have a lot. I respect Bernie, but I don't think there's a lot of connection for me. I'd like to remind everybody where we are right now. We got very fortunate in some of those seats as well. Now, if we're in a permanent minority, and then we have the Supreme Court as well, too, it's an incredibly precarious position for Democrats. For me, I want to find a way forward. Right now, it's difficult to find a way forward when now the Trump, in their plan for chaos, they pumped in 3 feet of raw sewage into here, and we have a Dixie cup to bail out with a lot of that.

The ongoing chaos, it's like you have 15 or 20 things you have to respond to. That velocity with social media and in the New York Times and other kinds of media outlets, they're all dropping, "Here. What about here? What about here? What about here? What about here?," and all those things. It makes it even more difficult and discrimination of what really should matter, what really is just more about chaos. It's an incredibly difficult situation in terms of what really matters, because we have a minority position, and that may not be satisfying, but I'm trying to describe where we are.

David Remnick: You describe it as a rushing, broken pipe of raw sewage, and you've got just a Dixie cup to deal with it. It's a pretty vivid metaphor.

John Fetterman: The ongoing chaos, and that's the thing. Then I don't want our party to turn into just about performative kinds of things. That's the thing. If those things worked, they impeached him twice. He was on civil trial. He was on criminal trial. Then again, after the assassination and through all of those things, it's like maybe that's not the way we should be going. Maybe we shouldn't become the party of scolding and shaming and trying to tell people, "Hey, you're too dumb. Hey, we know more than you do on those issues." I'm not exactly sure what the exact answer is.

David Remnick: We've been talking for a while and I can't tell generally what you're recommending. On the one hand, you're very critical of all the various strands of the Trump administration. Then at the same time, you say, we can't yell and scream about everything here because it's politically useless because Trump has done so well in elections. What I don't get is what one should do, how to stand up for your principles and yet at the same time be successful politically.

John Fetterman: Oh, I feel like that's my version on that. Really talking about and describing this and remaining a committed Democrat and reminding people we've lost Bob Casey.

David Remnick: That's Senator Bob Casey.

John Fetterman: Here in Pennsylvania. We've just lost two, possibly three of my colleagues, that they don't want to be in the '26 cycle as well, too.

David Remnick: Can I ask you a question? Is it depressing to work in the Senate?

John Fetterman: Yes, 100%.

David Remnick: It is?

John Fetterman: 100% it is, yes.

David Remnick: Tell me about that.

John Fetterman: Just like right now, I described it as like the plan was to pump 3 feet of raw sewage into--

David Remnick: Do you hate the job?

John Fetterman: No, no. It's an honor. To me, I think my honor and my duty is as a committed Democrat. All of the silly kind of narratives that I'm going to move my party or become a Republican, I would be a lousy Republican.

David Remnick: Why would you be a lousy Republican?

John Fetterman: Because I'm unapologetically pro-choice. I'm unapologetically pro-LGBTQ. I can't ever understand why people wouldn't be front and center and opposing Putin and Russia. There's a lot of things that I just can't possibly carry that. I'd be a terrible Republican. I'd like to say. I know, and I love a lot of Republicans, too, and that's why I don't call Trump a fascist because I know those people in my life aren't fascists. They're not terrible people. They're not bad Americans or anything. I don't think it was helpful to use those kinds of extreme kinds of terms.

When you unload the clip of the extreme kinds of terms possible and it doesn't have any impact, then, well, what's left? Then for how many years and how many cycles can you jump on cable and yell and scream and the world's on fire? That actually hasn't happened at this point. Remember, this started in 2015, and here we are 10 years later, and everything that's been said and done-- Remember, grabbing the [bleep] used to be the end of his political career, and here we are and what's happened. It hasn't worked. That's why I'm saying let's figure out a way to turn our party into a more effective machine to address that rather than using the same kinds of tactics that, in many ways, it's actually made him more stronger and popular.

Do people realize he hung his mugshot in the Oval Office? He signed that. It's the ultimate own. It's like he's raised millions off of that picture. It's made him more popular. Now he's hanging it in the Oval Office. Democrats were gleefully like, "Hey, he's a convicted felon. He's a convicted felon." Well, that's off-ban for us, for one. Two, if that's only done was made him more popular, I think that captures the futility on a lot of these things that just never worked.

David Remnick: Do you think the Trump-Musk relationship is doomed to crack up?

John Fetterman: Anything's possible. I have to believe somebody could even bet on that online.

David Remnick: [laughs]

John Fetterman: You can probably bet on that. If they want to, they can go right ahead. I'm not betting on that. For me, I would like to remind everybody it's been a remarkable kinds of outcome. It was disappointing, including myself. Trying to find a way forward and doing it in an honest way and saying things that it's not so much about criticizing, it's about describing and trying to explain to some people that maybe haven't experienced especially that kind of moments like the assassination or the kind of energy and the kinds of devotion that exists in states just like in Pennsylvania.

David Remnick: Senator, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

John Fetterman: All right, thank you.

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David Remnick: Senator John Fetterman of Pennsylvania. He took office in 2023.

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