David Remnick: [00:00:00] We hear constantly that it's harder and harder to communicate across the country's partisan divides. MAGA conservatives, moderates, liberals, progressives, they tend to hold negative views of one another and attend different institutions, and churches, and colleges, and social groups. And in the Trump era, people don't want to talk to those who have different political views, or not often, and they certainly don't want to hang out with them.

So it can't be easy for Jessica Tarlov to show up for work on the Fox News panel show, The Five. The Five, if you're not familiar with it, features diehard conservatives like Dana Perino, Greg Gutfeld, and Jesse Watters, and one token liberal on the hot seat. Tarlov alternates that role with Harold Ford Jr.,

and her exchanges with fellow panelists can get pretty heated pretty fast. There's 

Jessica Tarlov: Ron Tillis, all Republicans that voted to confirm him who are saying, "We are denying people [00:01:00] vaccines." You promised to uphold the, the highest standards for vaccines and have not done so. That- What, 

Jesse Watters: what vaccines has he denied someone?

Jessica Tarlov: Oh- Right ... COVID-19. Exactly. To who? 

Jesse Watters: Who can't get a COVID-19 

Jessica Tarlov: shot? To Eric Erickson's wife to begin, and Bill Cassidy used the po- Wait 

Jesse Watters: a second. You mean you can't walk into your doctor's office- 

Jessica Tarlov: No, you can't ... and get a COVID-19 shot? Why don't you ever prepare? Why don't you prepare, Cassidy? 

David Remnick: The Five is the most-watched program on cable news, with a daily audience of well over three million.

So there are a lot of eyes on Jessica Tarlov and how she represents liberal views in front of a largely hostile and conservative audience. She's written a book largely inspired by her work on Fox called I Disagree: Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends. 

Jessica Tarlov: I grew up in a pretty political household.

Parents, uh, quite active, typical boomer- Mm-hmm ... liberal types. So I consider myself part of the center-left moderates. I have a podcast called Raging [00:02:00] Moderates. Sure. So an angry moderate who wants to win elections and will go into any venue to talk about 

David Remnick: Okay, so that's a great way to start. What is an angry moderate?

Because it seems like an oxymoron. 

Jessica Tarlov: It's all of us now, isn't it? I spend a lot of my time looking at the data and the polling. I have a background as a political researcher and pollster. I did a PhD in politics- Mm ... at the London School of Economics. But an angry moderate today, I think, is someone who understands the gravity of the moment that we're in and is laser-focused on winning elections as the only solution to that.

The system is set up a certain way, and that you have to get into the system, i.e., you have to win the seat or the election in order to be able to make any change. 

David Remnick: And how do you see your role? 

Jessica Tarlov: First and foremost, part of the table. 

David Remnick: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Tarlov: But I see myself as part of a fraught and oftentimes friendly bipartisan ensemble discourse that very much [00:03:00] reflects real life.

David Remnick: What's the virtue of you being the one out of the five, and, and what's the danger of it? 

Jessica Tarlov: You have an opportunity to have this tremendous platform, a huge amount of eyeballs on it, which is bipartisan. So we have 20% Democrats, 30% independents, and 50% Republican, and that's everything from a Romney Republican to MAGA.

And I get to not just make the Democrats' case or the Democratic Party's case, I get to make my case, which I think is a very sensible and logical blend of policy and humanity that resonates with people. 

David Remnick: I grew up watching, um, William F. Buckley on the right- Yeah ... and debating, you know, somebody from the Black Panthers, or William Kunstler, the lefty lawyer, or Alan Ginsberg or something.

It was very exciting. It was intellectually [00:04:00] entertaining. What's the goal now? It's... It doesn't see- seem... Things are more rough-hewn. You know, uh, w- are you trying to persuade? Are we trying to entertain? What's the, what's the purpose? Why are you there? 

Jessica Tarlov: So I wanna win elections. 

David Remnick: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Tarlov: I don't work for the Democratic Party.

Democrats, when they're in office, elicit better policy outcomes for everybody, from- 

David Remnick: So, so there's an idealism to it, not just a- 100%, and they're- Not just 

Jessica Tarlov: careerism. 

David Remnick: Yeah. 

Jessica Tarlov: No. A- and I understand I'm on... You know, we're entertaining. Sure. And you can't keep four million viewers watching it if you aren't entertaining.

David Remnick: There are a lot of people who watch either people on your show or Sean Hannity or Laura Ingraham, and they can't believe that they're actually saying this. It's an alternative reality, 

Jessica Tarlov: Sena. E- 

David Remnick: exactly. They don't really believe that they mean it. 

Jessica Tarlov: Certainly have heard that. People ask, "How much of what they say do they believe?"

And likewise, people have asked me, "How much of what you say do you believe?" And if you spend time consistently with me, you'll see the days when I'm railing against the party for [00:05:00] something that I think is a mistake. Like, I don't know how many times I can say I think that blue city mayors should cooperate with ICE to turn over people who have committed crimes on American soil, not crossing the border, but once they got here.

If you don't do that, then Stephen Miller gets the wind beneath his sails, and he goes after people who have been here for decades who work at a car wash. 

David Remnick: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Tarlov: And nobody wants that. Donald Trump doesn't even want that. 

David Remnick: You've, you've talked to Trump? 

Jessica Tarlov: No. 

David Remnick: Never? 

Jessica Tarlov: Nope. 

David Remnick: He's 

Jessica Tarlov: talked about me. 

David Remnick: He certainly has.

Donald Trump once came after you on Truth Social for citing some poor polling numbers, and he wrote this: "Why does Fox News allow failed TV personality Jessica Tarlov to soil The Five? Her voice, her manner, and above all else what she says are a disgrace to television broadcasting." When you read that on Truth Social, do you, do you feel terrible or do you go, "I like that"?

Jessica Tarlov: No, I feel terrible- 

David Remnick: Do you? ... 

Jessica Tarlov: generally. 

David Remnick: Really? 

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah. I, my husband will try to gauge [00:06:00] the reaction. He's like, "Can she see the value in her platform and her persona being elevated like this?" Yeah. You know, hero to the resistance left, et cetera. Um, and then I'm mostly in tears about it. I... Not that one in particular.

David Remnick: So what really gets to you? 

Jessica Tarlov: What really gets to me is threatening my job. 

Donald Trump: No, I like all of your shows, actually. I'm glad Jessica's not there. Aw. Because I think, I... No, actually, I think your show would be better without her, but, you know, wh- who am I to say that? Isn't that terrible? I think it would be a lot better.

Jessica Tarlov: I think people who act as if it is not meaningful that the most powerful person in the world is personally attacking you are being dishonest, and I see no reason to do that. Mm-hmm. And I've shared that with my colleagues. Um- 

David Remnick: What 

Jessica Tarlov: do 

David Remnick: they say? 

Jessica Tarlov: It's not nice. They also know that if you engage him, it just makes him stronger.

Like, you know in The Little Mermaid when Ursula keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger? I do. Sorry, I have a two and a four-year-old. Yeah. So we're deep in the, [00:07:00] uh- Yeah ... in the Disney trove. That's how I see Trump when he's being fed. 

David Remnick: So when I have conversations with people in Congress, for example- 

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah

David Remnick: Democrats will always say to me, "You know, our Republican colleagues-" 

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah, behind the scenes. 

David Remnick: Behind the scenes, they'll- They can't 

Jessica Tarlov: believe 

David Remnick: it. They can't believe it. They'll say this, that, and the other thing about Trump, but then they go pull the lever and they vote the way they do. Is that the same at Fox?

Jessica Tarlov: I think they believe what they say. Mm-hmm. Or at least the, the core of it. I mean, one of the most important lessons that I think I've gotten from working in conservative media as a liberal is how angry they are. Mm. And how life has been for conservatives when Democrats are in office. The Obama years- Just meant such radically different things to liberals and to conservatives.

Well, 

David Remnick: let's dig down on that. Somebody who's got a, a very high-paying job on Fox who [00:08:00] has all the privileges in the world, how have they been in some way injured by, say, the Obama years? What, what is the sense of resentment that they're feeling? I'm, I'm not, I'm not battling back against it. I wanna understand.

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah. Something like not having the same kind of journalistic access, let's say, to the administration- Mm-hmm ... you know, favored outlets versus ones not as much. That what they do, which is giving voice to that factory worker- Mm-hmm ... and millions of people across this country, is not worth spending a few minutes talking to someone about.

David Remnick: Do you... Th- th- this is the crux of the matter. You're, you're on a, an opinion discussion show. Yes. But you come, as I've watched you, you come well armed with facts and figures, and you seem to live in what many people call the reality-based, uh, universe. Um, I think a lot of people would look at Fox's journalism about any number of big stories, whether it's election fraud, so-called, or January 6th or any number of [00:09:00] issues, and it's hard to credit that as r- real journalism as I understand it.

How am I wrong? 

Jessica Tarlov: Well, listen, I've been very clear and was all through a c- you know, around January 6th, and what it was, I call it an insurrection regularly. Mm-hmm. Donald Trump was responsible for it. I, you know, I have particularly- And 

David Remnick: so did many people on Fox 

Jessica Tarlov: for a hot minute. Yes, absolutely. Uh, Bill Hemmer, Bret Baier were- Yeah

on air. Uh- 

David Remnick: But then s- then they stopped. 

Jessica Tarlov: No, they d- well, they didn't stop, and you see- Right ... Bret Baier on, and you've had Bret here- I 

David Remnick: have ... 

Jessica Tarlov: has to defend the Arizona call- 

David Remnick: Mm-hmm ... 

Jessica Tarlov: to a bunch of rabid election deniers. 

David Remnick: Would you say that Fox helps foment that denier? 

Jessica Tarlov: That has been litigated. When people walk up to that line and, you know, they're talking about, you know, this thing or that thing that happened that might not have been big enough to swing votes, but there was something funny going on, I believe the point of what I'm doing is to say, [00:10:00] "You just don't wanna go there."

Like, this is done. It's not only done and dusted, it can never happen again. 

David Remnick: What, what have you learned more about conservatives by sitting in the seat that you do that you didn't know before? 

Jessica Tarlov: On specific issues- Mm-hmm ... I think that I have been able to see it from the other perspective, and a lot of liberals have gone through an evolution when it comes to, you know, border security- Mm-hmm

under Biden a- and things like that. I have learned a lot about people's pro-life views- Mm-hmm ... by being with genuine religious conservatives, and then I've even moderated the way that I talk about abortion to be more in step with, frankly, the European standard rather than when we just say safe, legal, and rare.

Mm-hmm. Because that sounds insane- ... to people if you sit down and say that versus, you know, can we have a conversation about a viability standard? Is that at, you know, 24 weeks and then obviously exceptions for life of the mother? That comes from talking to people who [00:11:00] have, you know, deeply held beliefs that life begins at conception or that it has to be first trimester, for instance.

Um- 

David Remnick: What can you not wrap your head around? 

Jessica Tarlov: I can't wrap my head around thinking that Donald Trump has moved this country in a good direction, and that there are so many people who are willing to compromise what they know to be true about character and morals and all of these things- 

David Remnick: S- I think- ... for, for him

a lot of people share that with you. 

Jessica Tarlov: I know, but it doesn't win elections. 

David Remnick: No, uh, okay, I understand that. 

Jessica Tarlov: So it's- 

David Remnick: And now- 

Jessica Tarlov: That's like a me talking versus how- 

David Remnick: Well, let's le- ... I would advocate on TV ... let's leave elections alone for a second. Y- you're, you go to work each day with, with people who do do that, who do find a way to say, "Oh, that's th- oh, that's just him," or, "That's him being funny.

He really doesn't really mean it." How do your colleagues, in your view, see that or, or have a kind of cognitive [00:12:00] dissonance where they push it to a, to the side? That's hard for me to understand. 

Jessica Tarlov: I understand, and I think that we might have, frankly, a different idea of morality about how a politician behaves than they would inherently.

They have found a way to make someone into a policy vehicle that they like and excuse the other stuff, and we're always looking for both. And also, people just think politicians are bad dudes. 

David Remnick: Across the board. 

Jessica Tarlov: Yeah. That, I mean, you, you would see those numbers over and over again, you know, faith in Congress, cares about people like me.

Every institution has gone down in standing, even fire departments- Mm-hmm ... are down 4% in approval. The people who will- That's a stunning fact ... run into... Yes. Why would that be? 'Cause I'm the data person. 

David Remnick: Why would that be? 

Jessica Tarlov: I think people just don't think society works. People don't trust doctors in the same way.

David Remnick: Right. 

Jessica Tarlov: I mean, our insurance system in [00:13:00] general is horrific, which is why you have people who would typically be part of, you know, the moderate crew or the center left who are talking about Medicare for all now. Ruben Gallego, for instance. Mm-hmm. Right? And that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about an angry moderate.

David Remnick: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Tarlov: It's a Ruben Gallego set of policy proposals, right? Where you say, "Yeah, we're all... We should all have healthcare, and we need to close the border, and that's a good thing." 

David Remnick: You're looking at the, um, midterm elections, I'm sure, and you're also looking at a very fractured Democratic Party. 

Jessica Tarlov: Yes. 

David Remnick: You've seen Zoran Mamdani.

You've seen AOC. They've emerged not only in th- their particular offices, but I, I would have to think that AOC, for example, is a lot more powerful than just the district that she's representing. 

Jessica Tarlov: 100%. Yeah. And she'll be even more when she's perhaps our senator, and then maybe when she's a candidate for president.

David Remnick: How do you feel about that? 

Jessica Tarlov: I feel better than I used to- Really? ... about it. Yeah. 

David Remnick: Be- be- because she said no to DSA here and 

Jessica Tarlov: there? Well, she didn't say no [00:14:00] to DSA. She, she has great instincts. She didn't touch Graham Platner. She didn't endorse in that race. She wasn't running up to Maine- Mm-hmm ... you know, ready to stump for him.

I don't know if it's 'cause she was a bartender. Mm-hmm. But she was like, "I know that guy." 

David Remnick: Yeah. 

Jessica Tarlov: She didn't endorse against sitting Democratic representatives here in New York. She, if it's an open seat, that's one thing, but she's part of a caucus. Mm-hmm. And that was certainly a nod to Hakeem Jeffries. I mean, I pay a lot of attention to her because clips of her are co- constantly used in conservative media, right?

So it all makes her stronger. 

David Remnick: Jesse Waters, one of your co-hosts, recently commented on Pete Hegseth's plan to screen testosterone levels in the military, and he said... 

Jesse Watters: The guys that don't need it are gonna take it to triple boost. Right. And then they're gonna get out there, and women on base, you guys better be careful.

Yeah. Port calls, women in Asia, you better be careful, because these [00:15:00] guys are gonna be wild animals, and you better watch out. Now, 

David Remnick: you weren't on the panel. 

Jessica Tarlov: I was not on the panel. 

David Remnick: Lucky you. Um, do you talk to him? Do you say anything? 

Jessica Tarlov: I did ask him when I came back, and he was like, "Of course I wasn't condoning rape."

And you have to, if you are a consumer of Jesse Waters, you would 

David Remnick: not think that- You'd 

Jessica Tarlov: get it as com- You would 

David Remnick: get it as pure comedy ... 

Jessica Tarlov: you might not think it's funny. 

David Remnick: Right. 

Jessica Tarlov: It was, uh, I wouldn't not have had a haha moment at that. Right. I know that Jesse Waters doesn't think it's okay to rape people. It's not, it's certainly not something, like, I would have said and- Yeah

that I know I have a particular style with Jesse. We're very combative, like siblings. 

Jesse Watters: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Tarlov: But it links to something that I think is core to this whole discussion. People who like Jesse or people who watch Jesse a lot give benefit of the doubt on something like that, and also know that he's not ill-intentioned.

That [00:16:00] has a life to it in the clip economy- Right ... that I think might not- Yeah ... in the regular viewership economy. 

David Remnick: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do your table mates think that Donald Trump is corrupt? 

Jessica Tarlov: I don't know. I don't... There is a very strong case that they make and have made on air that, well, he was a businessman, so this isn't, like, a politician making money.

There's a lot of 

David Remnick: animus towards pol- That even stunts, 

Jessica Tarlov: stunts me. Yeah ... there's a lot of animus towards politicians that get rich. You told us you were a public servant, and so this idea now that the Obamas have houses everywhere from Martha's Vineyard to Hawaii or whatever they're doing, and that is out of step with who they told you they were.

But Donald Trump never told you he was anything but a scumbag. I'm using scumbag. That's my word. And I think a lot about the initial premise of Donald Trump's candidacy, which is I could f- I can fix this because I'm the one who knows where all the [00:17:00] loopholes are, right? I'm the one that knows where the bodies are buried, in the tax code and maybe in real life, too.

And that carries a lot of weight. 

David Remnick: Early days, who do you see potentially breaking out in the Democratic Party for the presidency? 

Jessica Tarlov: I think it's going to be very hard for people to pick, because I think the bench is so wildly talented. People are going to have a tough time choosing from every column but the left column, 'cause there'll be a moderate choice, right?

And then there'll be a left-wing choice. And if it is an AOC, I don't really see someone at this moment that could take that mantle from her. Who is going to be as compelling to an audience? Um- 

David Remnick: Who's compelling to you? 

Jessica Tarlov: Jon Ossoff is very compelling to me. 

David Remnick: A Jewish guy from Georgia. 

Jessica Tarlov: Yes. My husband would say, like, "Is this because you're upset that you married out?"

'Cause he's Catholic. But he's had great speech coaching, and he has got [00:18:00] great writers- 

David Remnick: Yeah ... 

Jessica Tarlov: who understand that what people want the most is anger. 

David Remnick: Here you are in the other belly of the beast, the liberal media establishment. As somebody who spends a lot of time at Fox, what do you wanna kick us in the ass about, and say, "Wake up, you're missing this, this, and this"?

Jessica Tarlov: I think that there's a lot of lip service to the a- various autopsies that have been done about the 2024 election, and people have their marching orders. 

Jesse Watters: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Tarlov: We know that we're coastal elites, or we know that we talk down to people, and we're not gonna do that anymore. But they don't feel differently about that.

Those caricatures are pervasive and still very powerful. And- 

David Remnick: Are they overcome-able, or is it just something 

Jessica Tarlov: that's locked in? I think so, if the policies are good enough. Mm-hmm. I mean, people really- 

David Remnick: It's about policy [00:19:00] and not manners. 

Jessica Tarlov: It is about deliverables. Mm-hmm. And you see that with Donald Trump. Now, they don't like him right now.

I'm talking about the average conservative voter is mad. Not necessarily wouldn't tell you, "I hate Donald Trump," but they hate tariffs. They hate the war in Iran. They hate the self-dealing. They know Donald Trump is corrupt. You know, I look back to the 2020 lines of argumentation about, you know, why we needed Donald Trump out, and what Joe Biden could provide, and it was a, you know, a safe pair of hands.

And I believe without COVID, that Trump would've won re-election, and I wish that he had. 100%. I wish we were done now, because he, like Ursula, got stronger- You, you- ... in those four years ... 

David Remnick: really are into 

Jessica Tarlov: the Disney universe. We're really into it. I could also do Beauty and the Beast. But, you know, he established, uh, a cadre of advisors that Understood the challenge.

Like, Russ Vote wasn't as [00:20:00] powerful round one. Stephen Miller, certainly not as powerful. Project 2025- Mm-hmm ... not a thing. I, I hate that we gave them four years to take a sledgehammer to the country. We haven't found a way to deliver our vision for the future- Because we're 

David Remnick: too- ... 

Jessica Tarlov: in simple slogans ... 

David Remnick: too decorous, too mild, too- 

Jessica Tarlov: I don't know.

I mean, I have a PhD, so, like, I get it. I get why it's interesting to wa- write a big policy paper or, you know, dig deep into, you know, what happened. But for me, it's like, just give me the bumper stickers. Where's your no tax on tips? 

Donald Trump: Mm-hmm. 

Jessica Tarlov: But we, like good liberals, I think have ingested all of these learnings and have yet to spit something out that can win an election on our ideas and our merits and not just not being the other guy.

David Remnick: Jessica Tarlov, thanks so much. 

Jessica Tarlov: Thank you for having me[00:21:00] 

David Remnick: Jessica Tarlov is co-host of The Five on Fox News, as well as the podcast Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway. Her book is called I Disagree: Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends, and it's out in September. I'm David Remnick, and that's The New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.