David Remnick: [00:00:00] This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The name Erin Brockovich has been synonymous with a fighter taking on big polluters. And of course, many of us remember her from the film which dramatized a landmark case against a California utility, Pacific Gas and Electric, which had poisoned the groundwater in a small town.

Julia Roberts played Erin 

Clip: Brockovich. These people don't dream about being rich. They dream about being able to watch their kids swim in a pool without worrying that they'll have to have a hysterectomy at the age of 20, like Rosa Diaz, a client of ours. Or have their spine deteriorate, like Stan Bloom, another client of ours.

So before you come back here with another lame-ass offer, I want you to think real hard about what your spine is worth, Mr. Walker, or what you might expect someone to pay you for your uterus, Ms. Sanchez. Then you take out your calculator, and you multiply that number by 100. Anything less than that is a waste of our [00:01:00] time By the way, we had that water brought in special for you folks.

Came from well in Hinkley. 

David Remnick: Erin Brockovich has been involved in other major cases against polluters since then, and she runs a research firm that consults for lawyers. Earlier this year, she began receiving emails from people worried about the construction of AI data centers, something that's happening at a frenetic pace all over the country.

Erin Brockovich. 

Erin Brockovich: Hey. 

David Remnick: How are ya? How 

Erin Brockovich: are ya? 

David Remnick: Good. 

Erin Brockovich: Good. How are you? 

David Remnick: I'm good. You making some good trouble? 

Erin Brockovich: Um, well, I s- I didn't set out to do that, but apparently, yes. 

David Remnick: Yes, you did. 

Erin Brockovich: Like- 

David Remnick: Who are you kidding? 

Erin Brockovich: I really... It was a total surprise to me. 

David Remnick: Erin, it's been 30 years. 30 years s- Oh my God ... I know, since the- We're gonna 

Erin Brockovich: start this way?

David Remnick: No. It's been 30 years- Dating me ... since a certain legal case about groundwater contamination changed your life and the lives of a lot of other [00:02:00] people and inspired the movie that we know you by, and you've been filing lawsuits around chemical pollutants for, for years thereafter. Now you're involved with data centers.

You're involved in this for a fairly brief time, right? Just for a few months, and you're collecting information. This is the beginning of your process. 

Erin Brockovich: Mm-hmm. 

David Remnick: Um, how would you assess, uh, what the opposition is to the construction of data processing centers? Um, uh, how much pushback has already begun against the tech companies on this?

Erin Brockovich: A lot. This is... In my 30 years, I've never really seen the people show up- Hmm ... like they are at a very local level. Just down in Florida, and they got a moratorium, uh, the city council meeting went on for 12 hours, and, um, it just, it was an [00:03:00] overflow. And every city council meeting now, you're just seeing this huge overflow of people.

When I started the map, when a community reached out to me- 

David Remnick: Explain what the map is. 

Erin Brockovich: So it's pretty simple. It's, it's called Brockovich Data Center. Mm-hmm. But it's a map where people who have data centers being developed, proposed, or up and running in and around the country can report their issues to the map, and it comes to me in a submission.

You know? I go through 12,000, and I read each one. So for me, it was a visual to see the bigger picture. You know- 

David Remnick: What, what does the map look like? 

Erin Brockovich: Well, with all the, the red dots now- Yeah ... it's getting pretty hard to s- it's b- it's getting pretty hard to see- It's just coast, 

David Remnick: coast-to-coast data- 

Erin Brockovich: America ... 

David Remnick: data centers.

Erin Brockovich: It's coast-to-coast data centers. And so- 

David Remnick: That's pretty [00:04:00] incredible. 

Erin Brockovich: It's very incredible, and it's, it is, it's actually really, um, very concerning. You know, they're, they're building in many drought-restricted areas, and I don't know that people always understand. And, you know, listen, this has been a huge learning curve for me, and I'm learning from the people on the inside, the workers, the people, the city hall, and everybody.

The amount in the consumption of water, it is almost staggering. Mm-hmm. And the bigger hyperscales can use anywhere from one to seven to possibly eight million gallons of water per day. 

David Remnick: Now, what does a data center do in terms of the environmental drag on a, a community? 

Erin Brockovich: So what they're reporting is, and this is not just a few towns here or there, it's just everybody- Right

has the same report. A, during the construction [00:05:00] phase, these are not small facilities. They're 2,200 acres. They're 3,000 acres. They're 4,000 acres. And the first thing that they get extremely upset about is the destruction of the land. You're talking rural land. So all the trees, all the vegetation, all the farmland, all goes away.

It's disruptive to their sanctuary. It's disruptive to the wildlife. People are definitely reporting changes in the wildlife, the absence of wildlife, dead wildlife, and they find that very concerning. And in the construction phase, wells can often get damaged. The construction for people that are there will tell you it's almost violent.

You can feel the ground shaking, so all your water can get very turbid. People have lost their well pressure. Their wells have been damaged. They're [00:06:00] having to drill for deeper wells. And the gentleman that I reported on, Austin Newsome is his name, and, um, he's in a litigation, but h- his house is unlivable at this point.

David Remnick: Why is 

Erin Brockovich: that? Because now the water, you can't drink the water, you can't bathe the water. Mm. The water pressure's too low. He's got young children, and they just can't... I mean, they, they can't live without water- Mm ... and they can't now drink their water. And I'm really surprised at the number of reports, consistent reports from varying states on these large data centers, is the 24/7 humming, the, the decibels- Mm

how far they go out, how disruptive it is. It's just a nonstop almost buzz, hum in their ears, uh, 24/7, and they're finding it extremely disruptive, creating a lot of anxiety. More and more information is coming in now by [00:07:00] submission, people now reporting their utility bills. You know, a water bill that was $30 is now almost $300.

David Remnick: Why has it gone up so fast? 

Erin Brockovich: Because of all the energy that has to be required to build these huge data centers. 

David Remnick: So the locals are paying the bill? 

Erin Brockovich: Correct. 

David Remnick: Yeah. 

Erin Brockovich: And they're starting to send in their before and after electric bills. So on the map, we kind of will list stats of- Mm. -the number of people that have reported, how many have now reported electrical issues and water bill increases, and that is definitely o- on the rise.

But I have one woman, and, uh- 

Clip: Mm. 

Erin Brockovich: And she says, "You know, I'm on a fixed income. So now it's do I pay my electric bill or eat?" We are, and I am seeing some reports, and this is where I'm gonna start going out to these ranches, to these locations with these communities to see exactly what's happening. But they're starting to report- Right.

They're [00:08:00] noticing that they're seeing more stillbirths in the cows. So there are a lot 

David Remnick: of things- Stillbirths that are demonstrably the fault of data centers? Do we have any evidence of that? 

Erin Brockovich: No. They... What they're saying is since the data centers came in and began up and running with this constant noise- Right

it seems that they're now noticing more stillbirths. 

David Remnick: So we'll stipulate that that re- that's gonna require more research to figure out if there's any relationship. Oh, my 

Erin Brockovich: gosh, yes. 

David Remnick: Yeah. Abso- absolutely. So let, but let me ask you this. What laws, if any, are being broken in the construction of these data centers, whether it's in rural areas or, or near, closer to suburban areas?

Erin Brockovich: Um, I'm definitely getting reports from people working inside and from the counties and the cities that there was inappropriate permitting- Mm-hmm ... um, inappropriate zoning. That is definitely a, a big issue for everybody at the city council level, how they got in, um, how they came in as a pretense of a [00:09:00] warehouse, they were a data center- 

David Remnick: Mm-hmm

Erin Brockovich: that type of thing at a very local level. 

David Remnick: Not q- I'm not quite sure what you mean by ina- inappropriate. And, and are you suggesting that government officials are profiting in some way by giving permits, building permits and the like? 

Erin Brockovich: Well, according to many communities at their local levels, uh, they're showing up.

They, they're changing zoning ordinances. Mm-hmm. Some are building without the appropriate permits. And yeah, it's... I think it's very difficult for city council members when these big tech giants come in and, and they offer... You know, they want money for the city. Yeah. So they're, they're getting money for that, and, um, the people had no say in that, and they're also saying the money that they did receive wasn't changing their environment for the better.

So 

David Remnick: that, that seems to be the crux of the problem. Who decides... Who, who gets to decide about the construction of a data center, and then who profits and how, if there is one? And then what effect on the [00:10:00] public health there is. Am I right? 

Erin Brockovich: Yes. And the big issue is non-disclosure. Nobody was informed of anything.

There was no city council meeting. For ones that are being proposed now, that they know there was a non-disclosure, but now they're having city council meetings. 

David Remnick: So they're asking local government officials to sign NDAs about a- arrangements between tech companies and the purchase of real estate? 

Erin Brockovich: Yes.

They're... Everyone's been reporting that. It's been a non-disclosure agreement that a city council level who are in charge, you've gotta go to the local council- Mm-hmm ... to get your permits to build and zone, and they're changing zoning ordinances are signing non-disclosures. 

David Remnick: I'm talking with Erin Brockovich.

More in a moment.[00:11:00] 

Erin, you've, you've, you've got Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez trying to put together a, a AI data center m- moratorium act. Um, how prevalent is that in American politics? In other words, how much support do you see out there for this kind of moratorium? 

Erin Brockovich: So, uh, well, there's federal, there's state, and there's local.

David Remnick: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Brockovich: Uh, when we started, the moratoriums were starting to come. Uh, and maybe 12 weeks ago, maybe over 100 local counties and cities in multiple states had put on either pauses for six months, moratoriums for at least two years, [00:12:00] because now, as city council and states have seen the pushback from the people, they're like, "Let's wait," because now city council wants to know more information, and we have seen some flat-out bans.

We had one here- Mm-hmm ... in California in Monterey Park, where they flat out ban it. We've now seen 300 municipalities with moratoriums and/or bans. We've now seen 14 states that have come in with possible, you know, state oversight, and we just saw New York completely ban them. So it's kind of growing in regards to the moratorium and what kind of...

We just have no information. I mean, everybody w- in, in any leadership, it's like, wait a minute. Y- you gotta tell us what you're doing. What-- who's gonna pay for the electrical? What's-- what is going with the water? What [00:13:00] is your-- gonna be your water consumption? What size of land mass do you need? And so now you are seeing, as you said, Bernie Sanders and AOC looking at some federal oversight, and I'm watching that get some momentum.

David Remnick: Does the political debate break down along party lines, or is it, um, bipartisan? 

Erin Brockovich: It's, it's bipartisan. 

David Remnick: Mm-hmm. 

Erin Brockovich: I'm definitely seeing that, that that is pretty well known as e- everyone's starting to talk more and more and more and more and more about the data centers. 

David Remnick: Do you think it'll be a campaign issue in the midterms and in the presidential election in 2028?

Erin Brockovich: I do. P- well, m- possibly, yes. So I don't know if you watched the situation, and I watched with fascination, the situation that happened out in Utah, and, um, the people just showed up in, in huge numbers, so much so, and they were so [00:14:00] upset about the size of the facility- Mm-hmm ... the damage it could do to the Great Salt Lake.

Utah is already in a huge drought. 

David Remnick: In fact, Erin, the President of the State Senate in Utah just lost his seat over this issue. 

Erin Brockovich: Yes. I do think this could be a very important thing for the leaders, and I really, I, I've always been this way, and ever since I began my work in Hinkley, I, I've just never understood it.

When you have issues so important to the people, why on earth you don't listen to them, or, or completely disregard that they're showing up and they're like, "We don't want this." Right. Have a conversation with this. And that's one thing I've learned. If, in community after community after community for 30 years, communities are willing to cooperate.

Communities want to [00:15:00] have their voice heard. They want to have a seat at the table. They are willing to compromise. But what they won't deal with is the lie. And that this is, again, I feel like I've come full circle. That young girl that showed up in Hinkley, California, what was really motivating the community and their frustration was, "You lied.

I didn't know," and that's the exact same thing that's happening here. 

David Remnick: This feels like the '90s to you again in some way. 

Erin Brockovich: It does. It, I, I'm, I just feel full circle, and I'm watching... You know, Hinkley was one town, one utility- 

David Remnick: Right ... 

Erin Brockovich: and one aquifer. This is every town, every utility, every resource across the country.

I think the stakes are really high for the people. And what's really got [00:16:00] their goat, if you will- Yeah ... in everything, and I've had mayors call me, I've had city council members call me, I've had California legislation call me, and I'm getting the same reports. O- other city council members who are now not in office, this was an absolute Secret 

David Remnick: Have the AI companies reached out to you to say, "Hey, Erin, well, you know, we understand your concern, but we're, we're really not so terrible.

We're, we're doing X, Y, and Z to, you know, ameliorate the situation," or anything? Do you ever hear from the corporate side where they try to get you to come on over and, and understand their point of view? 

Erin Brockovich: No. 

David Remnick: Never? 

Erin Brockovich: You know, I have to laugh at that. They're like, "Oh, oh, shit." They- they're not that stupid. No. No.

Oh, um, you know, that's interesting because I did get a text from somebody who said there was a data center executive out of Dallas. Right. It's somebody that I work with, [00:17:00] uh, would like to have a meeting, and- 

David Remnick: Will you take that meeting? 

Erin Brockovich: Here's the thing Sure, with the people. You don't have to have a meeting with me.

You have to have a meeting with the people- 

David Remnick: With 

Erin Brockovich: the community in question ... whose backyards- Yeah ... are being, their life turned upside down. And, um, I'll be happy to show up for a meeting with all of them. 

David Remnick: Aaron, I wonder, do you use AI yourself? 

Erin Brockovich: No, not much. Um, I get curious. I use it out of curiosity, and when I do talk about AI, I encourage people, oh, th-th, it...

Remember who you're talking to. It's a machine, okay? It is a tool that could be used for good purposes. Mm-hmm. I don't think it's be all, end all, and I've always encouraged people, it, it's a tool, but you have to use your own brain. Vet your [00:18:00] information. It's a tool. Use it for the good tool it is. You don't need to use it for anything else.

So use it or don't use it. But the fact that to have this AI is at the expense, first of all, the big companies don't be appearing to pay for it. Now we're watching a lot of things happen and we're... States are now not giving them the tax breaks. They're starting to say, "You have to pay for all the electrical."

But for us, we the people, h- to now have to have water consumption issues, electrical bills going up, water bills going up, the loss of our sanctuary, our wildlife, everything, and all the resources at once are at jeopardy. It's too much. 

David Remnick: The name Erin Brockovich is associated with class action lawsuits. Do you see a class action lawsuit in the offing here?

Erin Brockovich: Well, the case that I was involved in, that everyone became [00:19:00] famous for, Hinkley, was- Sure ... a direct action, not a class action. That depends. Um, you could. There's a lot of diminution of property value, but I would see possibly, and that, that's gonna be up to all the lawyers to decide. It wouldn't be one national class.

It could be state by state, but I see the lawsuits coming. You are seeing more citizens and communities that are organized hiring attorneys. I'm starting to see actually now in a couple of places where they've put on moratoriums, the city councils are now being sued by the tech giants. There's a couple of them out there for 100 million or more.

That's gonna be really hard for these small local cities to, to push back on that. So I think that you'll start to see more litigation like that. 

David Remnick: AI executives will tell you, this is gonna bring a lot of jobs, endless amounts of innovation. It's gonna make everybody's life [00:20:00] better, and you're, you know... Yeah, there, again, there's, there's difficulties along the way.

Um, how much do you trust, if at all, AI executives and AI innovators? 

Erin Brockovich: I don't I don't, and, and I don't think the people do, and you're, you're showing all of them it, it- Mm-hmm ... that you can't be trustworthy. If this is so great and so awesome, what's the non-disclosure agreement? If it's so great and so awesome, come out here and talk to these communities whose lives you are turning upside down.

It's no different than PG&E- Mm-hmm ... hiding the information and not coming out to talk to these people. "Oh, behind your back, I'm sorry I'm poisoning you." So there's not gonna be a lot of trust with these giant corporations. 

David Remnick: So it's just, just, this is just about money then in the end? 

Erin Brockovich: For them? 

David Remnick: Yep. 

Erin Brockovich: Sure. But for [00:21:00] the people, it's their land, it's their home, it's their water, it's their resources, it's their sanctuary.

It's the rivers and the creeks and the tributaries that all of us enjoy, and it, it's coming at like a mass invasion. We're not talking one or two. We're talking it's happening simultaneously across the country. And so there's not gonna be a lot of trust with the people. 

David Remnick: Tell me your next steps. 

Erin Brockovich: Um, well right now gathering more information.

I'm gonna start going out to some of these communities. I'm gonna start going out to some of the ones that are construction, up and running. And, and some communities are asking me to start coming to their city council m- members', uh, meetings. And look, I can't be everywhere at once, but this is what I tell the people, "You're there.

You're showing up." And so on my Brockovich Report every week we're doing a story about this. We give a lot of tips to different communities, who they can network with, how [00:22:00] they can join forces, and that's really important because it's really hard as one. And they are starting to make a difference, and the more of them that are together, the more support they are for each other.

I've not ever seen this in 30 years. 

David Remnick: Erin Brockovich, thanks so much. 

Erin Brockovich: Hey, thank you 

David Remnick: Erin Brockovich. The mapping tool that she's launched is at brokovichdatacenter.com, brokovichdatacenter.com.