Melissa Harris-Perry: Welcome back to The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. Last week, leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention or SBC announced that the Department of Justice is investigating their organization, writing in a press release, "That the investigation will include multiple SBC entities."

This news comes after investigators from the third-party organization Guidepost Solutions released a report which found that SBC leadership was aware of hundreds of clergy members accused of sexual abuse, but chose not to act on behalf of survivors instead focusing on protecting the reputation of the SBC. In June, we spoke with Christa Brown, a survivor of sexual abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention. She shared with us what she wants to see next from the SBC.

Christa Brown: It is all well and good for them to talk about what they will do in the future, to say that they will do better in the future, and maybe even to actually do better in the future, but there must also be a reckoning with the past and with the enormous harm that they allowed on their watch.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Robert Downen is staff writer for the Houston Chronicle and has been reporting on the Southern Baptist Convention since 2018. Welcome back to the takeaway, Robert.

Robert Downen: Thank you for having me.

Melissa Harris-Perry: What do you make of the SBC's public response to the DOJ's investigation, and are they going to be transparent and cooperative in this case?

Robert Downen: I never want to assume whether or not someone's going to cooperate with law enforcement, but the posture from SBC leaders has been very much that, "While obviously we're not fans of being under investigation, a lot of this has been former leaders that are either out of favor or have been pushed to the margins in the SBC at this point." They've pledged full cooperation and transparency.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Have we seen policy changes or changes in SBC structure since that Guidepost Solutions' report?

Robert Downen: We saw at the June meeting, actually, they implemented a few reforms, one of them being a private database that churches could consult when making hiring decisions, just inquire about things on a potential employee's background that maybe didn't rise the level of criminality but were concerning. Then not as much a reform, but at their meeting, they also elected a number of leaders who have been very outspoken on the need to do more on abuse in the wake of our reporting since 2019.

Melissa Harris-Perry: You make that point, "In the wake of your reporting." Clearly, the work of you and your colleagues is part of why Guidepost Solutions came in and now the DOJ. What can the DOJ do as a result of this investigation? What are they empowered with?

Robert Downen: Details of the investigation are very sparse right now because as far as we can tell, they're being done in grand jury deliberations, which are totally out of public view. We really don't know much about either the scope or what in particular the DOJ is looking at, but we do know that there are, I think, two jurisdictions involved. It'll be interesting to see how the DOJ tries to work within the structure of the Southern Baptist Convention, because as much as it does bother survivors when the SBC says this, lack of hierarchy does make it interesting when you're trying to apply or look at any ascending liability or, really, responsibility with stuff. It will be very interesting what DOJ does with that.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Robert, you were just mentioning the structure of the SBC. For those who maybe haven't followed this story as closely, this does seem to be a really key issue. Can you remind folks the nature of the convention and why it does make accountability structures challenging?

Robert Downen: Absolutely, and thank you for coming back to that because it is a huge point. I think a lot of people saw this DOJ investigation that we found out about on Friday and thought back to the Catholic Church and these many attorneys general investigations that we've seen, especially at state levels, but the SBC is the polar opposite of the Catholic Church. There's really no hierarchy. There's not any good way for leaders to-- they can't offer a couple of decrees that matriculate down to the SBC's 47,000 churches.

Instead, all of the SBC's congregations are self-governing and make their own decisions on everything, from potlucks to whether, until recently, they should have a convicted sex offender on staff now. Luckily that's something that'll get you booted now, but it wasn't until recently. That speaks to this broader wild wild west system that is the SBC.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Okay. In part of this wild west system, survivors have talked about being intimidated, blamed, shunned for publicly calling out abuses. Do you have a sense of practice or cultural changes within the SBC, and will the DOJ investigation affect, again, those kinds of practices that are maybe not so much about policy, but just what happens?

Robert Downen: In the wake of our reporting since 2019, SBC leaders were very quick to say [unintelligible 00:05:47] reforms are going to be helpful and we pursue them, this is a broader problem of culture. While we can't measure how that culture is changing, that is where we need to really address this issue.

Just in my time covering the SBC, I think it would be very fair to say that there has absolutely been a change in culture amongst the leadership. You now have very pro-reform people who have been very outspoken and proactive on abuse operating at the top levels of the denomination, whereas four or five years ago, you saw the people that they actually replaced either resigning because of their handling of abuse or for abuse itself. I think at the risk of conflating what the top leadership looks like to what the average Southern Baptist Churchgoer is doing, I think it would be totally fair to say, though, that there has absolutely been at least some movement towards that broader culture change.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I want to talk for a second about the idea of trust. In your reporting, how have you understood or heard from folks on the question of trust and rather something like a DOJ investigation improves or decreases the sense of trust in an institution like the SBC?

Robert Downen: I do think it's going to be interesting how this plays out because, on the one hand, the Southern Baptist Convention is overwhelmingly a GOP voting block. I have no doubt that the broader GOP Republican views on the Department of Justice at this moment are similar to where they are on the FBI raid and other stuff. Well, getting back to your trust question, that's such a good question because the way I've always tried to frame our reporting to people who may be upset by it or something is like, "No, you're actually a victim in this too because people are using your trust, your goodwill, and the Christian tenants of forgiveness and repentance, they're weaponizing those against you."

I think looking at that in that framework rather as like everything being political or like these zero-sum games and realizing that, "Oh, because of our political infighting disagreements over X, Y, Z issue, children are being abused and people are able to weaponize the best parts of our faith against us," I think that's been a really helpful message as far as when we go about and talk to people and try to maneuver in this world where people may be skeptical of the DOJ or just a team of local reporters who they've never met before.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Robert Downen is a staff reporter at the Houston Chronicle. Thank you for joining us today.

Robert Downen: Thank you so much.

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