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Melissa Harris-Perry: This is The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry in for Tanzina Vega. On Thursday afternoon Representative Joyce Beatty, a Democratic Member of Congress from Ohio and chair of the Congressional Black Caucus was one of nine people arrested by Capitol Police. Representative Beatty was part of a small group publicly demonstrating in opposition to legislative efforts by Republicans in multiple states to reduce access to voting. This is what Representative Joyce Beatty was doing moments before her arrest.

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Capitol Police issued a statement saying "Nine were arrested for demonstrating in a prohibited area on Capitol grounds." This comes from the same week when Democrats from the state of Texas fled often to deny Texas Republicans the quorum necessary to pass a restrictive voting bill. Texas Governor Greg Abbott responded to the move by threatening to arrest the 50 plus elected officials upon their return to the state.

Greg Abbott: As soon as they come back in the state of Texas that will be arrested they will be cabined inside the Texas Capitol until they get their job done.

Melissa: When voting rights demonstrators are arrested or threatened with arrest, it recalls a shameful period in American history when the power of the state was used not to protect and extend democracy, but to violently limit it. When elected lawmakers are arrested or threatened with arrest for peacefully gathering to raise their voices and express the concerns of their constituents, it recalls authoritarian nations few would recognize as a democracy.

When all this happens, while one political party refuses to investigate a violent recent insurrection that threatened to interrupt the peaceful transition of power, well, that suggests that the government of the people by the people and fourth people may indeed be in danger of perishing from the earth. Joining me now is a man who knows a little about risking arrest to stand for equal rights. Representative James Clyburn is the Democrat representing South Carolina Sixth Congressional District and House Majority Whip. Welcome, Representative Clyburn.

Rep. James Clyburn: Thank you very much for having me.

Melissa: Can we start with your reactions to the arrest of Representative Beatty on Thursday?

Rep. Clyburn: I am so proud of Joyce. I was not forewarned that was about to happen. I was a little bit surprised when I saw it, but I'm as proud of her as I can possibly be. She has demonstrated as the leader of the Congressional Black Caucus how serious this issue is with us. It's really, really serious. I'm having a hard time understanding why people can't see that people like me with history like I have here in the South. We do not take voting lightly. There's been some tremendous sacrifices for this. I was in Dillon County this week, I was in Orangeburg County, this week, these are places that the history of denying the right to vote.

Last week I was in Clarendon County, where Brown v. Board of Education started. People have to understand history is instructive, and we will not run away from that history. We will not do violence to that history. We are going to remain true to the sacrifices made by so many of our parents, and grandparents. We are not going to allow the vote to be taken away with our participation.

Melissa: When you talk about that history, I have to say that for me watching the Texas Democrats this week using their relatively limited power as a minority party in a single state, but nonetheless by fleeing Austin they were able to really draw attention to these issues. It feels strategically smart and creative in ways that do in fact reminds me of the civil rights movement, have Congressional Democrats who you help to lead been similarly strategic and creative?

Rep. Clyburn: I think so. We are cooperating or listen I might add with those legislators from Texas. I cannot wait to sit down with them next week, as I did the week before we came home. If you remember a small delegation of them came to Washington a couple of weeks ago and I met with him at that time. Royce West, I know very, very well and as well as many of the others. We are standing in solidarity with them on this issue.

Melissa: Now, there's been some public discussion about your position on voter ID laws. Would you like to take this moment to clarify that?

Rep. Clyburn: Well, I don't know why people cannot understand that when I have a position, and you have a position, and we sit down at the table together, we try to find common ground. I'm against the filibuster. I know the history of it. Strom Thurmond represented South Carolina in US State Senate when he set the record for the filibuster. He was setting that record filibustering a civil rights bill. I'm against the filibuster, but there are a lot of people in my Caucus who are for the filibuster. My whole thing is, is there common ground that can be reached? I think it can.

We have already accommodated the budget when it comes to the filibuster, we will not allow the full faith and credit of the United States to be subjected that to a filibuster. That same principle should apply, in my opinion, to constitutional issues. All I've said is if you want to hold on to the filibuster, fine, though, I'm against it, but if that's what you want, limit to legislative issues, do not allow it to constitutional issues like we don't allow it on the budget. That's a very simple common ground, it seems to me. You're getting rid of the filibuster, but you're [unintelligible 00:06:49] apply to constitutional issues such as voting like we don't for a budget. That's all I'm proposing.

Melissa: Now, there's some reporting that suggests that President Biden has been unwilling to press for this filibuster carve out that you support. When I think about the very real king making moments that you had, and not only you, but South Carolina's Black voters in being decisive for President Biden in the 2020 primaries, does the President and his administration, do they owe it to both you and Black Democratic voters in South Carolina and across the country to back this filibuster carve out strategy?

Rep. Clyburn: Well, let me ask you how many people believe that Warnock and Ossoff, would have gotten elected to the United States Senate from Georgia, the first Jewish guy, and the first Black guy elected in Georgia, Representing Georgia in the United States Senate. This is a senate issue, irrespective of what Joe Biden may feel about it, this is Schumer, and the members of the Senate, Munchin would not be sitting the majority today were not for Warnock and Ossoff.

Their state lead on this, Georgia was first to produce this kind of legislation. Texas and Florida followed them. People keep wanting to put this between the White House, this rests in the Senate. The President has said that whatever the Senate does with the filibuster, he is going to support. This is a senate issue, and it needs to be dealt with by the Senate.

Melissa: It seems to me that also a senate issue and one way to tip the Senate power durably in the direction of Democrats without any filibuster reform is to move towards statehood for Washington, DC, and potentially also for US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico, are those statehood positions, things that you personally support and that you're trying to move the Democrats towards?

Rep. Clyburn: I personally support statehood in both instances, but I also know that that is not necessarily the case with all Puerto Ricans in the United States Congress. I stay out of that, but I do support statehood for the District of Columbia, always have them on the bill this time, and they always have been on it.

Melissa: I want to go back for a moment to voter ID laws. Again, there's been a little bit of public discussion that you may have shifted your position there. Can you clarify for us your position on voter ID laws?

Rep. Clyburn: I don't know why people keep misrepresenting that. I have never been against voter ID. Now, if you see a hidden as it was in a tweet, that had to do with a specific ID requirement, which said as it did in Texas, it be will require a photo ID and photo ID on a hunting license is good, but a photo ID on a student activity card is no good. That's what I've spoken out against

I wish people would just stop misrepresenting my position on that. I ID myself every time I go to vote. I've been doing this since the age of 21 because 18-year-olds could not vote when I was coming along.

Every time I go to the polling place, I present my voter registration card for the poll worker to compare it with her list, that's I ID-ing myself, I've always done that. I've never been against that. I am against you telling me a photo on a hunting license and I don't own a gun, I do not hunt, but a photo on the student activity card, a college student is no good. That's what I have been against. I've spoken out against that. I would ask anybody to take a look at the South Carolina law. When South Carolina required voter IDs, we sued them and we won. Not because we got rid of ID, but we got concessions from them on making the ID fair and equitable.

Melissa: Let's stay in South Carolina for just a second. I'm your neighbor just to the north in North Carolina and I've been a Nikki Haley watcher for a very long time. It seems pretty clear that your state's former Governor Nikki Haley is likely to make a bid for the US presidency. Do you have any thoughts about her likely candidacy?

Rep. Clyburn: Well, Nikki Haley is a member of the Republican Party and she is a disciple of Donald Trump. I am not for anybody who supports an insurrectionist.

Melissa: That's clear enough. Representative Clyburn we'll also stay in South Carolina for a bit to talk about the realities of the new delta variant and unvaccinated people and these rising rates of COVID. Can you talk to us about the situation around COVID in your home state in South Carolina?

Rep. Clyburn: This week and last week, I've held six Townhall meetings talking about this. 99.5% of all the people who are contracting COVID-19 now have been unvaccinated. I'm doing everything I can to get the word out, that people need to get vaccinated. People need to stop listening to the Trumpists of the world who see a conspiracy in this. People need to stop this foolishness. People are dying and we had better get control of this virus, or we will never return to any degree of normalcy.

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Melissa: Rep. James Clyburn, it is always such a pleasure to speak with you. Democrat representing South Carolina's 6th Congressional District and the House Majority Whip. Thank you for joining The Takeaway.

Rep. Clyburn: Thank you very much.

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Melissa: During the pandemic, I switched to online grocery shopping. Now that I'm vaccinated, I'm back to pushing my buggy down the aisles of my local store.

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Melissa: Sniffing, squeezing, and eyeing my favorite produce again is a great feeling but the bottom line at the cash register these days tends to drain my enthusiasm.

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Melissa: I don't even want to talk about what it cost my family to rent a minivan for a long drive to New Orleans for the 4th of July. The price prompted my husband to ask.

Mr. Perry: Oh, are we renting or buying this thing?

Melissa: Welcome to post-pandemic inflation. Here's Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen speaking on June 5th.

Janet Yellen: We have in recent months seen some inflation and we, at least, on a year-over-year basis will continue, I believe through the rest of the year to see higher inflation rates.

Melissa: In June, the consumer price index, the main tool for measuring inflation came in at 5.4% over last year, the largest jump in 13 years. The increase can mainly be attributed to products that were impacted by the pandemic like used cars, washing machines, and airfares. How long will this inflation last and who will it affect? Here to answer these questions and more is Trevon Logan, Professor of Economics at The Ohio State University. Trevon, welcome to The Takeaway.

Trevon Logan: Thank you.

Melissa: Also, with us is Heather Long, economics correspondent for The Washington Post. Heather, welcome back to the show.

Heather Long: Thank you. Great to be here.

Melissa: Trevon, can you take us back to Econ 101 a little bit and remind us how inflation is calculated?

Trevon: Yes, the most basic way of thinking about inflation calculation is to take a basket of goods, whatever you would purchase. A simple example, say everyone purchases an apple and an orange. If on Tuesday, apples and oranges are $1 each, and you purchase one apple and one orange, you would have $2 expenditure, and that would be our price index, that would index of inflation measure two. If in two weeks, the price of apples doubled, we would assume that you're going to buy the same apple and orange, and then your expenditure would be $3. We would say that prices have increased by 50%.

Melissa: Okay, I feel like I missed the grade I could have gotten in econ if only you had been my professor because that makes perfect sense to me. Now, Heather, I have to say, as I was reading some of your reporting on our current inflation, is it true that we can blame all of this on bacon?

Heather: [laughs] Well, it's certainly been one of those skyrocketing, that's the apple in Trevon's example right now, for sure. A lot of people are noticing prices going up. It's up about 8.4% according to the last read, but it's interesting to think about it. Bacon, for instance, it's up over 8% from a year ago. Of course, what was going on a year ago, we were in the middle of the pandemic, some prices were stagnating, or even dropping a little bit on some products like hotel rooms that nobody wanted to stay in. Part of the reason we're seeing these eye-popping numbers this year is because it's compared to a year ago when prices and the economy were in a very, very different place than they are now.

Melissa: That point about us being in such a different place, Trevon, let me come to you on that because your example about the apple and the orange, yesterday was $2 now it's $3, that's going to be rough because I'm going to still need that one apple and that one orange. Are these inflation numbers reflecting the lived reality for folks on the ground right now, me at the grocery store, for example, or is it that things have shifted so much that we're not really feeling inflation?

Trevon: Yes. There are two things in this apple and orange example. Apples now go from being $1 to being $2, you might decide not to purchase the apple and you might decide to purchase two oranges. When these prices rise, one of the things that we know that consumers will do, also going back to Econ 101, is they're going to substitute towards a good that is now relatively cheaper. That is one of the things that is not reflected in some of the ways that we calculate the consumer price index. As some of these goods increase in price, so bacon now is much more expensive than it was a year ago, you might decide to substitute towards chicken although what I also know is that chicken wings are in short supply.

Melissa: Nobody, nobody and I'm speaking as a southerner is ever going to substitute chicken for bacon. Heather, can you help us understand whether or not this is likely temporary, or whether we're looking at price increases that are here to stay?

Heather: That is the key debate, Melissa, that's going on in the White House and the powers of power on Wall Street and in many parts of the United States. It's this just the summer of high inflation and then it'll be forgotten by Thanksgiving or is this here to stay? It was interesting this week, the head of the Federal Reserve our most powerful policymaker, he even said he is "Not comfortable with where things are right now". A lot of it you can look at you can say, "Yes, this probably won't last forever."

Things like the airfares being up 25% or the hotel prices surging or furniture, anyone who's tried to buy a laundry machine or a dishwasher or furniture right now obviously when many people were at home, there was just this huge home renovation craze and home beautification craze going on and so there's still backorders on a lot of couches and these sorts of things. Same thing about a third of what's driving inflation right now is this surge in used car prices. I personally went car shopping this spring, I can attest the sticker shock of being on these car lots and seeing used cars are up about 45% from last year. Usually with goods, with things like couches or cars, eventually the factories produce more.

The companies get those items shipped and they get out into the stores and into the storeroom floors. There we have enough products to bring the prices back down but how long does that take? Does that take a few months? Does that take a year? That's why most people are still arguing the inflation could be short-lived, but what I worry a lot about, what's probably not short-lived there is now starting to be some uptick in rent prices, and those tend not to go back down. Anybody who's gotten a rent increase knows when they jack you up a hundred, 200, however much a month. They usually don't come back next year and cut your price.

Melissa: Trevon, can you help us to think a little bit about this relationship between interest rates and inflation that typically they're inverse. Right now we've got very low-interest rates. Is that causing the inflation rate to rise?

Trevon: Probably not. One of the things that we know from the type of inflation that we're experiencing right now, and this really gets back to this debate about whether it is transitory or permanent, is that we would have a situation of low-interest rates for a time to ease monetary policy, but we've had low-interest rates for quite some time. We've had historically low-interest rates, essentially since the great recession. We haven't had a significant or out-of-control inflation in that time period.

It's not likely that there's a strong relationship between monetary policy right now in terms of interest rates and inflation, but one of the issues is the way that we know we can get inflation under control is by raising interest rates. That is one of the tools that the fed would use to control inflation. If it were to get out of control. It's another reason why people are not as concerned about the relationship, because we have some tools that the fed can use to bring inflation under control.

Melissa: Heather, sometimes things are correlated even if they aren't causal. We know there's a strong correlation between incumbent presidents getting reelected or not reelected and the economy. I think Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter are typically held up as the examples of presidents felled by inflation. How worried is the Biden administration and how worried should they be?

Heather: They're very worried when you talk to them on background or off the record. It's definitely something that they're watching very closely as Trevon was saying, yes, we have a toolbox and we know what tools to pull if inflation does go higher. I think what's different this time around is A, we haven't seen inflation anywhere near this level. We just saw an inflation read of over 5% for the past year. Usually, in the past decade, it's been around 2% or even a little lower some years. People are not used to this.

It's been a long time and memories have faded since the 70s and early 80s. Some people who are young have never really experienced anything like this. Also, we have so many people who are retiring now and they now live on a fixed income. Usually, when you see inflation, you also start to see wages rising. If people are earning more money, they can to pay $2 for that apple instead of $1. If you're on a fixed income, you're obviously not suddenly going to get 5% raise in your monthly earnings, your income is fixed. I think that dynamic is changing things a lot this time around.

Melissa: Trevon, in terms of thinking about that question of wages and inflation, what's the worst-case possibility here?

Trevon: The worst-case scenario is our wages don't increase or keep in line. We do see significant and persistent inflation, and that would erode the quality of life for people. If you're earning the same amount and prices are increasing, you can afford less and less. Your standard of living is declining.

We typically do see wage increases with inflation to keep everything up to inflation. To the point about retirement, some of the retirement accounts that we have, for example, social security payments are pegged to inflation. The estimates of inflation, there is a little bit of a shield for some people, but the problem is when you peg those benefits to inflation, you also now need to increase the government's resources to keep those paychecks to be pegged to inflation.

Melissa: Increased government resources. That sounds like taxes. Trevon Logan is a professor of economics at the Ohio State University. Heather Long is an economics correspondent for the Washington Post. Thank you both for being here.

Heather: Thanks, Melissa.

Trevon: Thank you.

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Sheriff Ed Gonzalez: The American dream relies upon the rule of law and a functioning legal immigration system.

Melissa: That was Sheriff Ed Gonzalez, President Joe Biden's nominee to lead Immigration and Customs Enforcement or ICE. He was speaking at his Senate confirmation hearing on Thursday.

Sheriff Gonzalez: I have been proud throughout my career as a law enforcement professional to uphold our nation's laws. If confirmed as ICE director, I will be responsible for 20,000 dedicated men and women who worked every day to guard against threats to our national security, public safety, and safeguard the integrity of our borders.

Melissa: If confirmed Gonzalez will be the first Senate confirmed head of ICE in more than four years. To some conservatives, Gonzalez's record as sheriff for Harris county in Texas is a major red flag. In 2017 Gonzalez opted out of a partnership with ICE that would have allowed local law enforcement agents to act in a similar capacity to federal immigration officers. Here he is responding to a question from Ohio Senator Rob Portman about whether he would end the program known as 287(g) as the head of ICE.

Senator Rob Portman: This concerns me on 287(g), would you if confirmed want to terminate the 287(g) program? You don't think it works well, you didn't want it in your own county?

Sheriff Gonzalez: For me, it was a local decision.

Senator Rob Portman: My question is, would you want to terminate the program?

Sheriff Gonzalez: That would not be my intent.

Melissa: Gonzalez hasn't just faced pushback from those on the right. A number of immigration advocates say Gonzalez hasn't done enough to reform conditions in Harris County jails. It's also worth noting that his county has still worked closely with ICE to hold undocumented immigrants for up to 48 hours after their release dates while the agency determines whether to take them into federal custody. For more I'm joined now by Camilo Montoya-Galvez, immigration reporter for CBS news. Camilo, thanks so much for coming back on The Takeaway.

Camilo Montoya-Galvez: Hi, Melissa.

Melissa: Who hates it more conservatives or progressives?

Camilo: Your introduction was spot on. I think if confirmed, Gonzalez will face a competing views and pressure from left-leaning lawmakers, but also those on the right who worry that ICE will not ramp up enforcement deportations and arrests here in the interior of the country. The Biden administration certainly has never supported calls from left-leaning lawmakers to "Abolish ICE", but it has moved, Melissa, curtail arrests and deportations by issuing directives that narrow who should be prioritized for enforcement, in other words, to be detained and deported from the country.

The Biden administration has reversed Trump-era policies that made everyone here who doesn't have legal permission to be in the country fair game for enforcement. The Biden administration has instructed ICE agents to focus on those who pose a national security threat, those who might pose a threat to public safety, as well as recent border crossers, migrants who were recently apprehended along the US-Mexico border.

He is getting a lot of pushback from conservatives because of these directors that he will have to enforce, but he's also getting a lot of pushback from Progressives who want to see ICE detention significantly reduce, and ICE attention has been increasing in the past few weeks because border agents are transferring more migrants to the interior.

Melissa: On that last point about this narrowing while irritating to conservatives is also insufficient for Progressives. The ACLU released a statement after Gonzales's hearing calling his vision for ICE deeply disappointing. Are those the primary issues that they had with his remarks?

Camilo: Yes. As you mentioned in your introduction as sheriff of Harris County, the most populous county in Texas, Ed Gonzalez actually terminated a 287(g) program with ICE. This program dates back to a Clinton-era law, and Melissa, it effectively allows local law enforcement to act as federal immigration officers within certain localities and to interview undocumented immigrants, as well as green card holders, who are convicted of certain crimes, and to question them about their immigration status and hold them until ICE can pick them up. Ed Gonzalez said at the time that he terminated this agreement because he felt that it undermined his department's relationship with the local community.

That's an argument that many Democratic-led cities make in favor of so-called sanctuary policies. They say that these policies are designed to build trust between local law enforcement and the immigrant communities they serve, but when pressed by Republican lawmakers this week, Ed Gonzalez said that he would not end the program entirely nationwide because ICE still has many of these agreements with other local jurisdictions across the country. He said his was a local decision based on local needs. That was very interesting to see. It got, as you mentioned, a lot of pushback from the ACLU, which has been calling on detention and arrest be significantly reduced

Melissa: That called to localism always sounds to me a reach across the aisle moment. I live in a county here in North Carolina where our first African-American elected sheriff, run on a non-compliance with ICE ticket and that was really part of what brought him into that position. It's fascinating to watch these tensions emerge now at the national level. Why has it taken so long for there to be a Senate-confirmed ICE head?

Camilo: That is a key question. As you mentioned, during the Trump administration ICE never had a senate confirmed permanent leader. There were always leaders who were serving on an acting capacity. Just one of those was actually nominated to serve as ICE director but President Trump hold his nomination because of a surge in migration at the US-Mexico border. He said at the time that he wanted to go on a "Tougher direction" and wanted to look for more leadership. That is something that I think was unique to the Trump administration, President Trump did make it clear that he'd having officials in acting capacities because he could fire them more easily.

I think that was a unique element to the administration, but it remains very certain that ICE officers especially the ones who handle deportations and immigration arrests are looking for leadership. They are looking for leaders that will be able to guide them through all of these competing pressures that they have on the agency because as you know, many of these progressives want the agency abolished and the Biden administration definitely does not support that, but it has issued several restrictions on who these agents can arrest and that has been polarizing among some agents who feel they're being handcuffed, at least that's what they're saying.

Melissa: If add together this nomination and then one for which the hearing date has not yet been set for Tucson Arizona Police Chief Chris Magnus, what do those two together tell you about Biden's immigration policy?

Camilo: Well, Chris Magnus is also a local law enforcement official from Arizona. He has that law enforcement career and background that I think the Biden administration is looking for, but he also has spoken out against ICE enforcement and the Trump administration's immigration policies. He brings that balance of being a law enforcement official, but one that has expressed sympathy for immigrants and that has criticized hardline immigration policy.

I think that is one of the criteria that the administration is looking for leaders at the Department of Homeland Security, some officials who can on one hand enforce federal immigration law, which is a difficult task, but also usher in what they call more humane and orderly immigration system.

Melissa: Camilo Montoya-Galvez is an immigration reporter for CBS news. Camilo, I hope you'll come back and talk about what's going on with COVID in the detention centers as well.

Camilo: Thanks, Melissa.

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Melissa: In 1960 one in every three elderly Americans was poor, one in three. By 1995, the rate fell to below 10%. Just let that sink in for a moment. In just four swift decades our nation slashed elder poverty. We did it even as the proportion of older Americans grew, but let's be clear, this did not happen because older people finally decided to stop spending all of their disposable income on beer and bingo, nope. Personal responsibility and individual savings accounts do not change the economic realities of an entire population in just one generation. Transformational public policy does.

President Franklin Roosevelt: We can never ensure 100% of the population against 100% of the hazards and vicissitudes of life, but we have tried to frame a law which will give some measure of protection to the average status and to his family against the loss of a job and against poverty-stricken old age.

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Melissa: You're Listening there to President Franklin Roosevelt in August 1935 as he signed social security into law. The law was imperfect but transformative and as social security expenditures rose elderly poverty declined. Unfortunately, even as elder poverty declined child poverty rose and it rose sharply in this country. Today nearly one in five American children currently live in poverty and that's double the rate of elderly Americans.

Yet over the decades even as so many of America's young people struggled with the lifelong effects of poverty, lawmakers from both parties deployed the language of personal responsibility as it dramatically cut aid to families and children. Here are Vice President Al Gore and President Bill Clinton in August 1996 signing the sweeping welfare reform bill.

Vice President Al Gore: The president will sign a welfare reform bill and make it law. One that reinforces such core American values as work, family, individual responsibility, and community.

President Bill Clinton: The new bill restores America's basic bargain of providing opportunity and demanding and return responsibility.

Melissa: On Thursday Vice President Harris and President Biden summed it very different as they heralded a new effort that they hope just might turn the tide on child poverty.

Vice President Kamala Harris: Let us mark this day, Thursday, July 15th, 2021 as the day the American family got so much stronger. Today, the expanded Child Tax Credit is here.

President Joe Biden: I believe this is actually a historic day, a historic day in the sense that we continue to build an economy that respects recognizes the dignity of working-class families and middle class families.

Melissa: Harris-Biden spoke even as the first payments of the Child Tax Credit or CTC begin to show up in the bank accounts of American families with children. Most American families will be eligible for up to $300 per child per month. The money comes with no strings attached. Economists say the money could lift as many as four million children out of poverty but it only goes so far. That's because the Child Tax Credit is part of the American rescue plan and therefore it's time-limited, payments will end in December of this year. The urgent question facing the Biden administration is whether they can cultivate enough political will to make the policy permanent. We asked you what your thoughts were on this new policy.

Frank: This is Frank in Richmond, Virginia. We transferred the money into our son's college account. Every little bit is going to help and that boy's going to need it.

Caleb: This is Caleb from Austin, Texas. We're putting it into our child's college fund.

Renee: Hello, my name is Renee and I'm calling from Apollo Beach. We did receive our child's tax credit, as a matter of fact, however, we still haven't received our third stimulus payment. So I went ahead and had to take money out of my 401k to pay our back rent because we're still awaiting that.

Jen: Hi, this is Jen in Austin, Texas. I and many others made a personal choice not to have kids, but that doesn't mean that we don't struggle as well. I think that a universal basic income would be better.

Chris: I'm Chris I'm from Spokane, Washington. The Child Tax Credit is nice. It's a nice addition to our finances. We do pretty well, but it means I can focus a little bit more on growing my businesses and I'm finally taking the first vacation in five years. I don't have to focus so much on what I get paid from the businesses, I can just grow them and do what's right.

Julian: Hello. My name is Julian. I'm from Northwest lower Michigan. I'm not getting any, I am retired. However, I raised three children by myself as a single mom. It was very difficult. I remember very well how hard it was and I'm so very grateful that our government is doing something to help our families. It's crucial.

Melissa: We always love it when you talk with us so record a voice memo and email it to takeawaycallers@gmail.com or call us at 877-869-8253. With me now is my friend Dorian Warren Co-President of Community Change and Co-Chair of the Economic Security Project. Welcome, Dorian.

Dorian Warren: Thanks for having me, Melissa.

Melissa: Dorian on Thursday, you and I co-hosted an event marking the start of the CTC payments and Community Change, the organization that you lead was one of the many advocacy organizations who helped bring CTC into being, can you tell me a little bit more about the coalition of organizations that were involved in making CDC a reality?

Dorian: Well there are a lot of grassroots, particularly, welfare rights organizations led by women and women of color in the 90s that emerged in the fight around a Child Tax Credit in response to the ending of "welfare as we know it" that was signed into law as you've already talked about by President Bill Clinton in 1996. The Child Tax Credit was one manifestation of that into policy in early 1997. It was expanded actually under the Bush tax cuts in 2001 that allowed what's called partial refundability, that is people who previously didn't earn enough money to qualify

for part of the Child Tax Credit, but it then took another 20 years of organizing, of advocacy, and champions in Congress to really get us to this point where we are today.

Melissa: These are pretty different than how we've seen tax credits work before these are coming as monthly payments. Can you help us understand that?

Dorian: Up until July 15th, the towel tax credit was a once-a-year refund at tax time, when you filed your taxes. We know that folks don't have emergency savings month to month. It is partly a question of policy design, and this is a very interesting policy design choice to go from one lump sum once a year to monthly. We know from social science research, that stability allows parents and caretakers to be able to plan for things they need for that month, whether it's food or diapers or what have you. It's just a smarter way to do public policy.

Melissa: It does seem to me that that enormous departure is both the thing that makes progressives super excited and also maybe marks the difficulty in bringing along bi-partisan support. I want to take a listen to something that president Biden said on Thursday.

President Biden: You'll probably hear from our Republican friends, all who voted against this, but they'll tout the success as it helps working families in their states and their districts. So I say to my colleagues in Congress, this tax cut for working families is something we should extend not end next year.

Melissa: What's the likelihood that the Biden administration can actually make that happen.

Dorian: It depends on three key factors, Melissa. First is awareness. Some of the early polling in May and June showed that half of eligible parents weren't aware of the temporary expansions in the Child Tax Credit. There's an awareness element here, public education awareness of letting people know, of letting parents know they're aware. Second though is access. How do actual parents and particularly those who haven't filed or haven't needed to file a tax return with the IRS, how are they able to file and receive the money?

There are some serious access questions, particularly because we know the IRS website is not mobile-friendly, many low-income parents rely on their phones, for instance, to access the internet. There are a range of access questions, if people don't experience this, then that leads to probably not as much support as one would imagine. Third is advocacy, of course. It's not like this is going to be easy and easy lift in terms of advocacy to win enough support in Congress to make this permanent.

What we're facing is that when this expires after a year, child poverty will increase If there is nothing done, if the status quo, particularly in Congress of not taking action on big things were to hold then the poverty rating, especially for kids would go up, parents would lose this benefit. Awareness, access, and advocacy are the three elements here of what would be necessary to make this temporary change permanent.

Melissa: It's so fascinating to me that payments as modest as $250 to $300 a month can lift more than four million children out of poverty, at least according to Economist and the assessments of what this can do. How exactly is it that such modest payments makes such a big difference?

Dorian: The one huge change in this temporary expansion of the Child Tax Credit, people are not talking about enough and that it helps provide the answer to your question, Melissa. Before the American Rescue Plan, families that didn't earn over $2,500 were ineligible for the Child Tax Credit. There was actually a work or income requirement before this expansion. That's millions of low-income children that weren't ever receiving this credit or a partial credit because of that ,change that again, most people are not talking about, there were a whole bunch of the poorest families, can you imagine? The poorest families in America weren't even eligible for this before the American Rescue Plan.

When you expanded and say there's no income requirements and that even if you didn't earn income you're eligible for the full refund, that $3,000 or $3,600 per child, that is actually transformative because we know for those that-- We have people in America that do, in fact, live on less than $2 a day, a title of a recent book by some social sciences. We tend to think of poverty as this issue that affects millions of people and especially Black, brown Indigenous folks, but when you dig into the policy details, I'm an expert in this, I didn't even quite remember that families that didn't make more than $2,500 were ineligible for the Child Tax Credit before the American Rescue Plan.

That's partly why this is so transformative. As you said, that little amount of money $250 or $300 a month is transformative for millions of parents who really, really struggle to make ends meet, to put food on the table, supply those diapers, or to pay for school, clothes, or materials. It's a really, really big deal that we need much more discussion and conversation, and especially more research around.

Melissa: Well, thanks for starting the conversation with me. Dorian Warren is Co-President of Community Change and Co-Chair of the Economic Security Project. If you want to watch the event that Dorian and I co-hosted yesterday, it's at the Economic Security Projects Facebook page. Thanks, Dorian.

Dorian: Thank you, Melissa.

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Liz Ritter: Hi, my name is Liz Ritter. I'm calling from New York City. I do not qualify for the monthly Child Tax Credit, my children are now adults. When they were younger, our family income was well above the floor for this program, but as an American and a taxpayer, I am so glad that this program has begun. There's nothing more patriotic than taking care of our neighbors and using our collective resources to extend a helping hand, lifting families up out of poverty is a great investment and a common good.

Chayana: Hi, my name is Chayana. I'm in San Leandro, California. I am a teacher in Hayward, California, and we did get the childcare tax credit deposit. For us, it means a lot less stress in trying to pay for the childcare costs that we mercifully did not have to pay during the pandemic but has been keeping me awake at night thinking about how to pay for-- As the school year starts and all of my kids go back to school full time and me wondering how we're going to have childcare for them after hours in between my teaching base finishing and picking them up. I am so grateful for it, my husband and I both, and it will go exactly where it should which is straight to my children. Thanks.

Melissa: That's all the politics we have for you all today. As always, we appreciate you tuning in, but before we head out though let me give a quick shoutout to our fantastic team that helps make all this radio happen. Our producers are Ethan Oberman, Meg Dalton, Lydia McMullen-Laird, Shanta Covington, and Katarina Burton. Our line producer is Jackie Martin, our senior producer is Amber Hall. Vince Fairchild is our board operator, Jay Cowit is our sound designer. Polly Irungu is our digital editor, David Gebel is our executive assistant, and Lee Hill is our executive producer. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. This is The Takeaway.

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