Janae Pierre: Welcome to The Takeaway. I'm Janae Pierre, host of WNYC's Consider This, and I'm in for Melissa Harris-Perry today. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. Let's get to it.

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Every year ride-sharing platforms like Uber and Lyft collectively complete billions of trips globally, but given the nature of ride-sharing; strangers driving other strangers from one location to another, there is a level of danger involved. That threat is on display in the following 911 call of an attack on an Uber driver in Nashville, Tennessee in 2017. A note that this clip does depict a violent encounter.

Uber Driver: We just somebody driving Uber now?

Dispatcher: Okay, and what's going on?

Uber Driver: I drove them. He's drunk. He's trying to attack me right now.

Janae Pierre: The driver reported he was attacked by a violent passenger.

Dispatcher: Okay, where are you at? [screams]

Uber Driver: I'm attacked right now, ma'am. I'm attacked. He just attacked me. He beat me.

Dispatcher: Okay, do you need an ambulance? Do you need an ambulance?

Uber Driver: I need a cop right now. It's never happened to me before.

Janae Pierre: Recent reporting from The Markup, a newsroom that focuses on tech found that "Uber has produced at least 24,000 safety incident reports that involved physical assaults perpetrated against its drivers by passengers from 2017 to 2020. These numbers were revealed in court filings and a federal wrongful death lawsuit filed against the company." According to a recent report from the advocacy group, Gig Workers Rising, more than 50 drivers have been killed while working for companies like Uber, Lyft, and DoorDash since 2017 in the US.

Bobby Allyn: My name is Bobby Allyn, I'm a tech reporter with NPR.

Janae Pierre: Some of Bobby's recent reporting has focused on how ride-sharing apps like Uber and Lyft have managed to skirt responsibility when drivers are killed on the job.

Bobby Allyn: Certainly, if you are the family of someone who got into a Lyft, or an Uber and died while trying to just go from point A to point B, you might reasonably say that the companies are responsible, but the company say they are not responsible, and they have a whole legal regime that has backed them up. When you get into a Lyft or an Uber ride and say you get killed, there's almost no way to sue in a wrongful death case. There's no way pretty much to get any survivor benefits.

Janae Pierre: Now, it's important to remember that both drivers and passengers in the gig economy are at risk for violence. In June, Uber issued a report which detailed that in 2019 and 2020, nearly 4,000 incidents of sexual assault in the US were reported on its platform. 56% of the alleged perpetrators were drivers, 43% passengers, and 20 people were killed in assaults; 15 passengers and 5 drivers. I asked Bobby what it is about ride-sharing apps that make them a vulnerable venue for violence.

Bobby Allyn: I think it really goes to another question, which is just how dangerous is it to get in a Lyft or an Uber, and unfortunately because the companies don't release comprehensive data on this, there's really no way of knowing. Look, if driving a cab is any guide, Lyft and Uber rides are actually quite dangerous. We have federal statistics that have consistently shown that driving a cab is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country in terms of your chance of a workplace homicide. I think taxi drivers are only behind retail sales workers and police officers when it comes to the chance of being killed on the job.

Again, it kind of makes sense. Just the volume of taxi rides and Uber and Lyft rides happening every day, and these are stranger interactions. We get in these cars and we have a good faith thought that the driver is going to drive us to where we hope we're going to go, but sometimes things go south.

Janae Pierre: Uber has pointed out that the rates of sexual assault dropped 38% in 2019 and 2020 compared to the previous two years. Bobby says that there have been at least incremental changes by the platforms to address the issues of sexual assault perpetrated by drivers against passengers.

Bobby Allyn: This has been a problem that has dogged both Lyft and Uber for years. It's something that advocates have applied a lot of pressure on the companies over and they have made strides in terms of transparency. Both of the companies released reports somewhat regularly detailing the number of sexual assaults that passengers experience over the course of rides or new safety features like being able to do audio and video recordings of your ride in case something does happen.

The companies have really ramped up the amount of background checking that they're doing of drivers to try to ferret out potential perpetrators before something really terrible happens, but that said, there are sexual assaults that happen every single year in Lyft and Uber rides, and some people say, "That risk is just too high, and I don't feel safe getting in the car of a stranger."

Janae Pierre: In June, a cohort of Senators led by Ed Markey of Massachusetts, sent letters to the CEOs of Uber, Lyft, and other gig economy platforms demanding they prioritize driver safety and, "answer for their lack of transparency and accountability," but Bobby is skeptical that the government will step in to impose any meaningful regulation.

Bobby Allyn: When you talk to people inside of Lyft and Uber, they have been dealing with the threat of invasive and business-crushing regulations since they were founded, and they always seem to find a way around them. These companies have so much market share in so many parts of the US that regulating them out of business is basically a non-starter, and they say, "Look, because of Lyft and Uber,-" This is the company speaking.

"-people who would have maybe gotten drunk at a bar and driven drunk home are now taking Lyft and Uber." They're saying it's a cheap way to get to work for some people. They love touting the benefits, and they actually have gotten the ear of a number of Congresspeople who say, "Yes, there are safety problems. There are some sexual assault issues, but there's also another side too in which they are beneficial and especially in some places that don't have a lot of public transportation."

Will regulations actually ever come and create a reckoning for these companies? I doubt it, but certainly, Congresspeople are still writing letters to try to scare the companies, but I have yet to see any real action in Washington in terms of passing new regulations that would really reshape the gig economy in America.

Janae Pierre: Maybe you've experienced something like this. We asked you to share whether you've ever felt vulnerable or unsafe while using ride-sharing apps, either as drivers or passengers. Here's what you told us.

Javon: Hello, my name is Javon. I'm calling from Tampa, Florida. During my time doing rideshare, I once picked up a guy at a fast food restaurant. As I started following the directions, he said, "Okay, you're going to need to take a different route. We ended up in an increasingly rural area. As an African-American, driving somebody who I've never known who was Caucasian, going into an area with no streetlights, no surrounding neighborhoods, no community, it raised the hair on the back of my neck significantly.

Fortunately, nothing happened, but it was moments like that, that stand out to me, and the dangers that rideshare drivers face.

Rob: Hey, this is Rob from Boston. I'm a music teacher and rideshare driver. I'm in six and a half years of driving. I've had to put four people out of the car, and two of them were physically threatening me, but other than that, it really has been a pretty good six and a half years.

Janae Pierre: To explore the issue further, I spoke with Alexandrea J. Ravenelle. She's an Assistant Professor in Sociology at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill and the author of the book--

Alexandrea J. Ravenelle: Hustle and Gig: Struggling and Surviving in the Sharing Economy. These rideshare platforms are really focused on making money. One of the ways that they focus on making money is to make workers independent contractors or 1099 workers. They're outside these standard social safety net of workplace protections. They don't have access to workers comp, they don't have access to employers paying their social security or Medicaid, and it literally takes an act of Congress for them to be able to get access to unemployment benefits.

This also means that companies can't train workers, and they can't require certain things, although various platforms certainly try to do it. It also means that even the riders are going to be more vulnerable because there aren't the same types of safety precautions in place.

Janae Pierre: If you're using a ride-sharing platform as a driver or passenger, is there a good reason to feel unsafe?

Alexandrea J. Ravenelle: Unfortunately, there probably is. Now, the risk is minor. If we look at the statistics from these platforms, they often say now it's 99% of rides are fine, but there is still going to be that 1% of rides or a little bit less, where maybe it's not fine. There's a lot of focus on things that these platforms are doing to ensure customer safety. They do background checking of workers. They have hotlines for customers to call about platforms, but there's very little focus on the protections for the workers.

When workers are having strangers come into their private car, they are especially vulnerable. You don't know what the person sitting in the back seat might be doing or what their intentions are, and you don't necessarily know who they are. There's no way to ensure the person who's getting into your car is the person who has the account.

Janae Pierre: Have the ridesharing platforms themselves failed to put policies into place that prevent sexual assaults from drivers or assaults against drivers?

Alexandrea J Ravenelle: The platforms have done some things. They have put in emergency buttons that you can contact emergency services or contact the platforms if you're having a problem, but they, in many cases, have not done other things that could help. For instance, they have not always been entirely forthcoming about the number of sexually uncomfortable experiences that riders or drivers experience on these platforms. They also haven't done a whole lot in terms of deactivating customers who maybe have been problematic for the drivers.

Janae Pierre: This is no new issue when we talk about the gig economy. How does the gig economy upend generations of workplace protections such as worker safety?

Alexandrea J Ravenelle: We can look back 100 years in the US and we had generations of workers fighting for workplace protections. That's what the W-2 status gives workers. It gives them some workplace protections. Now, obviously, it doesn't ensure that there are no problems in the workplace, but it does provide you with access to workers' comp, to unemployment assistance, to contributions for your retirement through Social Security, or through a 401(k) or a pension. It also provides access to health insurance provided by your company if you're working more than 30 hours a week.

When companies use this independent contractor model, when they classify their workers as 1099 workers, those workers lose access to all of those protections. We see this as a movement forward to the past, where these generations of workplace rights and protections end up being rolled back. This may be app-enabled, but in many cases, this disruption and this return to a lack of workplace protections is not new.

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Janae Pierre: More with Alexandrea in a minute. In an email to The Takeaway, Uber said that it is "deeply committed to the safety of drivers and delivery people" and said it has added safety features, including an emergency button for drivers with 911 integration to call for help and "additional programs in place to financially support families dealing with tragedy," although it does not specify what that looks like, saying there's no one-size-fits-all solution.

We reached out to Lyft for a comment as well, and as of this airing, we have not heard back. We'll be sure to post their response on our website if we do. We have to pause here for a moment. More on rideshare companies like Uber and Lyft after the break. This is The Takeaway.

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I'm Janae Pierre, host of WNYC's Consider This, and I'm in for Melissa Harris-Perry today. We're back talking about the safety risks experienced by both drivers and passengers of rideshare companies. We've been hearing from you about vulnerable or unsafe experiences that you've had while using rideshare apps.

Melody: I have absolutely been in danger or felt like I was in danger as a female rideshare driver. I have had a passenger behind me try to take me off of the map into areas where the reception on the phone was going out and there was no lighting, at which times I had to make decisions where I wasn't going in those directions. I've had passengers try to offer me drugs and refuse to get out of my car if I don't come to party with them. My name is Melody calling from Weymouth.

Annie: This is Annie from Boston. I was once in a Lyft coming home from work. It was around 1:00 AM. The driver tried to cancel the ride while I was in the vehicle without alerting me that he'd be canceling the ride. Nothing transpired to make him want to end the ride. I became a little suspicious and kept my eyes on him and noticed he tried to do it a second time. I made a phone call to someone just to keep me company during the ride.

At the end of the ride, I got a notification from Lyft asking if I was okay because there'd been some delays and the ride was stagnant. Without saying anything to me or doing anything physically to me, I felt unsafe and uncomfortable in that vehicle.

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Janae Pierre: I've been speaking with Alexandrea J. Ravenelle, an Assistant Professor in Sociology at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. I asked her what steps the rideshare apps have taken to address issues of safety and supporting victims of violence.

Alexandrea J. Ravenelle: We hear about times when they definitely haven't been supporting of victims. There have been some efforts to partner. I think Uber has a hotline where people can call in and talk to sexual assault professionals who can help them. In general, it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of action on the side of these platforms towards really preventing this, much less helping people afterward.

This is something that the platforms, and not just in rideshare but in all aspects of the gig economy, could start to do a lot more for. We should have some clear-cut guidelines for people about what's unacceptable behavior in a vehicle. There should be clear-cut guidelines in terms of what the next steps are for these platforms when something like this happens.

Janae Pierre: Is there anything specific that you think should be implemented by these platforms to protect drivers and passengers?

Alexandrea J. Ravenelle: First and foremost, we should require that if drivers have to give a copy of their driver's license or form of ID, then the passengers should also. It should be much easier for a passenger to get deactivated for questionable behavior. The platform should be providing free cameras for the drivers so that they can feel a little bit safer and have a record of what's going on inside the vehicle.

Platforms shouldn't allow you to purchase rides with gift cards. There's no way to track who's getting in the car if you have an entirely anonymous profile and you're paying for it with a cash card that's not actually affiliated with a bank account.

Janae Pierre: Talk about how ridesharing platforms hide behind the idea of being tech companies rather than, say, taxi services, even though they're essentially providing the same service.

Alexandrea J. Ravenelle: When they're confronted with regulation, they say, "Oh, no, we're not a taxi company. We are a technology company. We use technology to help connect drivers and passengers." A long time ago, we used to have taxis that were powered by horses. Yet, when we moved into cars, it wasn't suddenly, "Oh, we're technology companies. We're using cars," it was, "We're a taxi company that no longer is depositing manure along the side of the street."

It's very funny to me when these companies are like, "We are technology companies." No, you're not. You're using technology, but all of us use technology. I'm a professor. I use technology in the classroom. Does that mean I'm a technology professional? No, I'm still a professor who's making use of tools. That's the same thing with these companies. By calling themselves technology companies, they get this imprint of being something we can't understand.

The example I always give, for those of us who remember VCRs, is that blinking 12 on the VCR because nobody ever knew how to set the time. The same thing with these companies. They say, "We're technologies." "Okay, we don't understand how that works. We will just give you whatever you want." No. Technology is simply a tool and you are still a taxi company.

Janae Pierre: Now, from a policy perspective, does there need to be more regulation to make ridesharing services safer for both drivers and passengers?

Alexandrea J. Ravenelle: Oh, absolutely. Sometimes people are very anti-regulation, but this is one of those cases where some regulation is definitely a good thing. We should have regulations in terms of the numbers of hours that people can be driving. We should have regulations regarding who is able to get in the car. Do you want your 10-year-old to be able to grab an Uber ride and jump in? No, there should be restrictions on ages, where you have to have adult permission or you have to be over a certain age.

There should be restrictions in terms of what these platforms are able to pay their workers. We should have a minimum wage for these workers to ensure that they're not essentially driving around and making no money. We should also have regulations in terms of how the platforms try to protect their workers. A lot of these platforms will have a button, an emergency button on the app that you can hit, but if your app is on your dashboard, like many drivers use it, then how are you going to click that button without the passenger who might be causing you problems knowing what's going on?

There are a number of different things that we should be regulating in this area. I think the sooner we realize that these are not technology companies, the faster we will start moving forward on that regulation.

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Janae Pierre: Alexandria J. Ravenelle is an Assistant Professor in Sociology at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. She's also the author of Hustle and Gig: Struggling and Surviving in The Sharing Economy. Incidentally, Uber says that it has a new rider verification feature which requires a state ID or a driver's license for users who are using anonymous payment options as well as an audio recording feature they're piloting which allows users to record encrypted audio during their trip.

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