PERSON 1: Hi Kathy and Tobin.
PERSON 2: Hi Nancy Podcast.
PERSON 3: Hey Kathy and Tobin and everybody else.
PERSON 4: So this is a voice memo for the Nancy podcast and their Out at Work segment.
TOBIN: So Kathy.
[OUT AT WORK MUSIC STARTS]
TOBIN: All season long, we have been asking for people’s stories about being out at work and so many people shared their experience with us.
KATHY: Close to 3,000 people told us about how they navigate being queer and having a job and there was just this huge range of stories.
PERSON 5: I’m really lucky to say that being out at work is one of the best things that has happened to me just because I was able to find my own community in my workplace.
PERSON 6: I came out at work before I came out anywhere else and that helped me to come out elsewhere.
PERSON 7: I’m not out at work except for the one other queer coworker that I have and her response was basically “I don’t know how to handle this."
PERSON 8: Bringing my full self into work is not particularly relevant to the work I do. The chemicals in my lab don’t care if I’m queer or straight or who I’m in a relationship with in my life.
TOBIN: I would say the biggest theme we found from all these stories is that being queer at work, it’s never as simple as being in or out.
KATHY: And I can't think of a better way to end season two than for Team Nancy to hear from our listeners. We're gonna be looking at the many different ways we are out, we are queer, we are ourselves when we’re at work.
[THEME MUSIC IN]
VOX 1: From WNYC Studios, you're listening to Nancy.
VOX 2: With your hosts, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu.
[THEME MUSIC ENDS]
[SCHOOL SOUNDS FADE IN]
ASA: This tends to be my spot. Saying good morning to kids when they come in. Morning Caleb! Morning guys! Good morning. Good morning Wyatt! [YOUNG STUDENT YELLS EXCITEDLY] Good morning Mark, good morning Lindsey!
ASA: I'm Asa Sevelius. I’m the principal of the Heath School in Brookline, Massachusetts.
ASA: Good morning guys! [SCHOOL BELL TONE] Hey, hustle in guys.
KATHY: I stopped by Asa’s school at the beginning of September. It’s a public elementary school, and since I haven’t been in one of those since I was IN elementary school myself, I was fascinated by everything, including this giant "yes" button on Asa’s desk.
ASA: Yeah, push it.
[BUTTON] Well yes.
My favorite is the Ronald Reagan yes. That’s so good.
[KATHY & ASA LAUGH]
Asa: I love being a principal. I love effecting change. I love building capacity with teachers, I love systems. I love being the person in the hallway that’s responsible for giving a lot of high fives to kids.
KID: Oooh is this a recording?
KID: [GASPS] For what?
ASA: For a podcast.
KID: A what?
ASA: [LAUGHING] A podcast.
KID: [EXCITEDLY] A podcast?! Guys, a podcast!
KATHY: So we’re talking about being out at work today, and we’re starting off with Asa because he wrote in to tell us about having to navigate something very personal while on the job. Something that started way back before he ever worked in a school, back when he was a kid himself.
ASA: Y’know early in life, I always felt more boy than anything, and really enacted that pretty quite a bit, pretty aggressive tomboy. You know, Jake from 16 Candles was my goal, that’s how I wanted to dress. But at the same time, people saw what they wanted to see and they always saw female. So it wasn’t until college that I came out, and I came out as a lesbian. And then it wasn’t until I was 45 that I publicly came out as trans. And, y’know, that’s when I was able to make my announcement to the community.
KATHY: And that was a process that took years, leading to this moment at the end of the last school year, when Asa decided to send a letter to everyone in the school community telling them that he was transitioning. At the same time, the Boston Globe published a front-page story about his transition. So it was all just so very public. It’s important to note here that the Heath School is in a very liberal school district. The negative responses were more confusion than hate. But even still, saying something about your private life in such a public way...Asa says that's still hard.
ASA: When you tell the most private thing about yourself, the thing you honestly thought you’d probably die knowing and take it to the grave with you. When that one most private thing about yourself becomes the most public thing about yourself, you have to, or I feel like I have to rethink, what are my boundaries? When and where can people enter my life? When and where and how do I enter other people’s lives? Where does your body, your politics, your mind, your beliefs, where does that end and where do you enter into a classroom? That’s an essential question for educators. And when your actual identity is laid so bare, what does that mean? And I think that’s what’s hard, trying to rethink all of that, and really keep very tight boundaries, and kind of reset those boundaries.
TEACHER 1: Yesterday we learned a new greeting with our handshake. [MUSIC IN] I'm wondering if two people can volunteer to show us what the handshake greeting looks like? Dr. Sevelius would you like to choose?
ASA: I think Liam, I've never shook hands with Liam before.
TEACHER 1: Liam can you go shake hands with Dr. Sevelius?
ASA: Good morning Liam.
LIAM: Good morning Dr. Sevelius.
ASA: Hold on our thumbs were not, you see how you have to lock in? Good morning Liam.
LIAM: Good morning Dr. Sevelius.
ASA: Good morning. [FADE OUT]
Asa: They call me Dr. Sevelius, which helps. I have kids coming up and asking me directly are you a girl or a boy? And I’ll say, well, I’m a little bit of both, and soon I’ll be a lot less of one. I’m in the process. And I just kind of move on. I don’t need to in the lunchroom while we’re standing there with our trays of pizza, need to get into my transition story. I have this one kid, he would come into the office and he’d be like, “Hey it’s my main man!” and I’d be like, “ Hey it’s my main man!” And he’ll say stuff like, “I don’t get it all the way, but I got you. I got your back.”
TEACHER 2: How do you think the principal is doing? La directora?
STUDENT: Si. Muy bien.
TEACHER 2: Muy bien.
STUDENT: Very good. [LAUGHS]
TEACHER 2: [LAUGHING] Muy bien means very good. We love Dr. Sevelius and we want her to stay forever.
TEACHER 2: Or at least until I retire. Then you can go. [LAUGHS]
ASA: I have to make peace with a lot of things. I’m trying to move the dial on my personal life with like thousands of people and so, I’m misgendered all the time. [CHUCKLES]
ASA: And I am at peace. It will change. People are working so hard and I recognize that.
KATHY: It's close to noon, the kids are out, running around, playing games like jump rope and slingshots. And Asa pulls me aside.
ASA: I just had this most amazing moment up on the hill. We have a kid in our school who’s actively transitioning right now. You know, she was assigned male at birth. And there’s this alphabet game, and the question was talk on your teams and find out who’s the youngest girl on your team and spell out her name. And this kid, as soon as the question was who’s the youngest girl on your team, she was jumping up and down, “I’m only six! I’m only six!” and they spelled out her name, and they won, right? Every kid deserves to be themselves and this is an actively transitioning kid in our community, who has been affirmed as female so hardcore here, to the point where their response and reflex time, you know, they don’t have to sit there and think, well nobody knows my story, or I don’t feel safe. I don’t feel loved. Quite the opposite. “I’m the youngest girl on the team!” [CHUCKLES] You know? “You are!"
[OUT AT WORK MUSIC]
TOBIN: Uh, Asa and the school sound so cool.
KATHY: They're both very cool. And I feel like I have two big takeaways from that visit.
KATHY: First, I somehow managed to forget just how tiny everything is at elementary schools!
TOBIN: [LAUGHING] Uh huh uh huh...
KATHY: And second, talking to Asa really reinforced to me just how singular and unique each person’s experience is when it comes to being queer at work.
TOBIN: Oh totally, I mean like reading through all the responses from our survey, there was this whole spectrum of experiences.
KATHY: So many!
TOBIN: More than one person can ever hope to comprehend.
KATHY: Unless that person is superstar producer Matt Collette. Get in here.
TOBIN: Hello Matt.
KATHY: You've been deep in this thing.
MATT: I have spent a lot of time with a spreadsheet.
TOBIN: Yes! Spreadsheet Matt Collette.
MATT: Yes that is who I am now. I was just like submerged in data.
MATT: There were just so many different stories, but it really seemed like a few trends kept popping up. Six, to be specific.
[SESAME STREET MUSIC IN]
[CLIP] BERT: [SINGING] Six! Six?
BERT & MATT: [SINGING] My favorite number is six!
[MUSIC CUTS OFF ABRUPTLY]
KATHY: Matt! Please stay on topic.
TOBIN: I just have to ask, was that Bert from Sesame Street?
MATT: It seemed appropriate?
KATHY: I don't think it is! I don't think it is...
TOBIN: It's not really appropriate
TOBIN: Why is it appropriate?
MATT: I mean, Bert, Ernie, they're like...
KATHY: Wait what?
MATT: Anyway, anyway, sorry, you spend a little too much time in a spreadsheet and your brain starts to go weird places.
MATT: So yeah, this isn’t scientific, and there are probably a million more ways to think about this. But it seems like there are the six most common ways Nancy listeners think about being out at work.
TOBIN: So like what would you say I am?
MATT: You would be what I'm calling “professionally queer.” Meaning your queerness is like 100% part of your job. So it's like people who work on LGBT issues, maybe they're a lawyer, a social worker, work at a nonprofit...
KATHY: ...host their own podcast.
TOBIN: Their own queer podcast!
KATHY: Queer podcast!
KATHY: [WEIRD CHUCKLE]
MATT: Exactly. We definitely fall in that “professionally queer” category. Here’s somebody else who does, it's Dana from Brooklyn.
DANA: I do work on social justice, racial and economic justice and being queer has always informed my sense of activism and critical thinking.
MATT: The idea being you're not just a queer person doing work, but you are a queer person doing queer work.
KATHY: Okay, got that. What's next?
MATT: So next are people who are “out and proud." Being queer isn’t officially their job, but they’re totally open about their queerness and they don’t feel they need to hide or censor any of it. Here’s Brook, she's trans and works in tech.
BROOK: I work in an engineering company so I talk about software, but I also get asked quite often to go talk about my experiences. I’m really lucky to be able to not only be out at work, but actually travel around talking about being a trans woman and a dyke at various conferences.
MATT: So like, of the 11 people who work at Brook’s company, she’s one of two trans women, and by being out neither of them are like alone in their queerness, and that's super helpful in making them feel comfortable at work.
TOBIN: Right, okay, so Matt in the spectrum, what comes next?
MATT: So next is sort of this “people can tell” version of being out. Like, you may never formally came out to anyone, or even really specifically talk about being queer at work, but still like, everybody knows. Here’s Alison, she says she doesn’t really like to talk about being queer with any of her coworkers, but like she definitely changed her look to communicate it.
ALISON: It’s immediately obvious that, you know, getting a super butch haircut and changing the way I dress, these things immediately have seemed to have broadcasted what I hoped they would. And I have really weirdly mixed feelings about it because I feel like I’m being a coward by sort of just presenting myself in this way without actually having a direct conversation with people about it. And I also feel kind of annoyed at myself for not having done this years earlier and spent so many years feeling so uncomfortable.
KATHY: You cannot deny the power of a very very gay haircut, c'mon. There’s just no hiding it!
MATT: Next up, “it’s complicated.”
PASCAL: The people I work with at work are all like I mentioned really nice and they’re all very progressive, so I have no problem being out as a gay man to them. However, I don’t know how they would take it if I were to come out as trans.
M: This is Pascal.
PASCAL: I work with people from all over the world who are immigrating to Canada. These are people from all different cultures and ways of life and I want to be able to respect that and kind of not cause any waves with that, because if I’m in the business of helping people with bureaucracy, me expressing myself how I want might not really translate the best way.
TOBIN: So we’ve covered the types of people who are out at work to some degree. I'm curious about the people who said that they are not out at work.
MATT: So just 13% of the people told us they weren’t out at all, but honestly that number is probably a little low, like if you’re not out you also might not fill out a podcast’s kinda nosy survey.
TOBIN: Fair, that's fair.
KATHY: Yeah, fair.
MATT: But however many there are, there are basically two ways people aren't out on the job. The first is they feel they can’t be. Maybe they live in a place without protections for LGBT people or feel they’d be fired.
KATHY: Yeah, there're still 28 states where you can be fired for being gay. And earlier this season we did a whole episode about that, if you want to learn more, scroll back a bit into the archives.
MATT: Or they just feel like there’s just no way their co-workers would accept them.
PATRICK: I constantly felt this pressure inside of me.
MATT: This is Patrick, he’s gay.
PATRICK: I wish that I could say, I could tell them what my life was like and have those stupid and maybe inappropriate conversations about girlfriends and boyfriends with the rest of the guys, but that’s just not a reality in the construction fields.
TOBIN: You can hear it in his voice that it is a tough situation.
MATT: And he says it's just like totally changed who he is at work. Like, he wants to be able to talk about this but he can't and so he just kind of winds up really quiet all the time. His coworkers think he's just like this really tough guy, and it's really like, a side that I don't even feel like I could share.
TOBIN: Right, yeah.
KATHY: It's not easy. It's definitely not easy.
MATT: And then finally there’s this group that’s just like “it’s irrelevant, me being queer has nothing to do with my job.” Like this guy, Jeremy.
JEREMY: My sexuality is only a small piece of what makes up who I am.
MATT: He works at a place with a lot of turnover and he says he’d rather just not say anything than have to come out over and over again.
JEREMY: I wouldn’t trade my queerness for the world, but I find that it doesn’t make up any bigger a piece of my identity than the fact that I sing opera and I play Dungeons and Dragons.
MATT: I definitely, when I was like first starting work, had this like, "It's not really relevant, it doesn't need to come up," it was definitely a thing I did in my first couple years out of college. And I think that I thought it was, eh, I'll just save myself some trouble. But really you just spend all this time guarding what you're saying and thinking about how you're gonna present. And then as a whole you spend all this like mental energy that kinda just winds up keeping you further apart from your coworkers and your work, so like, at least when I kind of gave up that idea, it was like a very real burden was lifted.
TOBIN: Well I, you know, I feel similar that there was definitely a turning point for me where I was more vocal about being out at work, even before I had this job. But I think for me it just makes me feel for all the people who can't do that.
MATT: No matter the person, being out at work can be this delicate tightrope to walk, and there are a lot of ways to do it.
TOBIN: Yeah absolutely.
MATT: Take us home Bert!
[SESAME STREET MUSIC FADES UP]
[CLIP] BERT: [SINGING] Six!
KERMIT: All right, Bert.
BERT: [SINGING] Nothing more lovely than six!
[MUSIC FADES DOWN]
TOBIN: The bit works once! You get one time.
KATHY: Not even one.
TOBIN: And then it's over!
KATHY: I'd argue not even one.
TOBIN: [LAUGHS] Alright alright, superstar producer Matt Collette.
KATHY: Thank you!
MATT: Bye guys.
TOBIN: Coming up after the break, you've got questions, we've got answers.
KATHY: Nancy will be back in a minute.
[THEME MUSIC IN]
TOBIN: And we're back!
KATHY: Yes we are!
TOBIN: So, we’ve been talking about overlaps in how people experience being out at work, but we should say we also noticed some trends in the problems people face in the workplace. Like, situations where it’s hard to know what the right move is.
KATHY: Yeah, we heard from a lot of folks trying to figure out stuff like sharing pronouns and coming out, who to tell, all of that.
TOBIN: And I thought it’d be kinda nice to offer some advice to folks who might be in the same boat.
KATHY: Ooh, advice corner.
TOBIN: Well, kind of. It's not my advice corner. I mean, as much as I am a professional gay.
KATHY: You're a very professional gay.
TOBIN: But I don’t have all the answers. So I called in some help.
CLAIR: Hi, this is Clair Farley and I'm the director of Economic Development at the S.F. LGBT Center.
MIA: Hello, my name is Mia Satya and I am an employment services specialist.
TOBIN: Also at the S.F. LGBT center. So Clair and Mia, they both counsel LGBT folks who are looking for work, giving career advice, offering resources. And I thought they’d be the perfect folks to offer advice.
KATHY: Cool cool.
TOBIN: So one thing that came up for listeners is like, should I come out in an interview?
PERSON 9: Once during a job interview the woman interviewing me asked if I had a boyfriend or husband that would be moving with me if I accepted this job offer. That made me feel really uncomfortable because I wasn't really sure if I should out myself or just lie. But I wanted to be honest so I told her that I had a partner and that she would be moving with me wherever I got a job. This woman then started to try and talk me out of the job. I ended up not getting the job and I really feel like that experience will forever haunt me cuz I'm left wondering if my sexuality had anything to do with me not getting the job.
TOBIN: And I think this is not only a big question for young folks entering the workforce, people changing careers or people who might want to be out on the job for the first time. But Clair says, at least in the interview process, you shouldn't feel pressure to bring it up.
CLAIR: We really don't recommend coming out in the hiring process because it really is difficult to prove discrimination because there are so many reasons the job may not be offered to you. So we really recommend if you want to be out at work whether you want to be out as trans or transition on the job or be out as gay, you do that after the offer's been made.
TOBIN: So like, once you get an offer, you can decide then if you want to come out to HR or to your boss. But if you come out in the interview process or on a resume and you don’t get hired because of it, it can be really hard to prove that there was any discrimination going on.
KATHY: That's surprising to me.
TOBIN: Yeah. So another thing we saw come up for folks is how to deal with making sure people use the correct pronouns, like our listener Ally.
ALLY: I brought up during interviews that I am gay and queer but I'm also non-binary and I've only told one person. I put they/them/their in my signature line but everyone still calls me she and I don't correct them. I've only been at my job for about two months so far and I can't tell when the least awkward time to bring it up or if I should expect these folks to use my preferred pronouns at all.
TOBIN: So Mia has some great advice for this if you’re trying to get people to use the correct pronouns for you. She says you want to avoid making it feel like it’s just you fighting this battle, and that starts with finding allies who can almost serve like ambassadors on your behalf.
MIA: And I think that once you get one or two or three of your coworkers to understand who you are and your identities, I think that you will see a shift in momentum because that behavior will be modeled correctly and it will actually sound weird when other people say "Oh she's going the bathroom" and your other co-worker will say, "Oh yeah they're going to the bathroom."
TOBIN: She also recommends trying to get HR to change company culture so it feels less like you’re asking for, you know, “special treatment."
MIA: You could also ask the company why don't we all put pronouns on our signature so that it really normalizes the fact that we all have correct pronouns. And I think you know it would be good for everyone to go ahead and put pronouns so that we're addressing people correctly.
TOBIN: We also heard from trans workers experiencing discrimination in the workplace, like Freddy.
FREDDY: I work in retail for a company that is known for being like young and hip and they are really putting forward an image of being a really progressive company. But being trans working on the floor at one of these stores, that’s not really come to bear. So being trans in retail sucks, and I’m not sure how I’m going to fix that yet, but I have to figure that out because no one’s going to help figure that out but me.
TOBIN: We heard from people like Freddy who are maybe thinking about looking for other jobs, especially in workplaces that are more trans friendly.
MIA: So job searching for trans people can be exceptionally difficult because we are facing multiple forms of discrimination.
TOBIN: Mia says if you’re trans and you’re looking to a supportive workplaces, one of your greatest assets can be tapping into the knowledge of the community. And there's actually a community really close by, sort of under your nose, on Facebook.
MIA: So there's a lot of private or semi-private groups that you can access based on your identity and career path. And that's a great way to find people who will really give you the benefit of the doubt and offer you advice on your career that you might not have access to otherwise. So a couple of them that I have used are "Transgender Professionals" is one of the page. There's also trans role models and there's so many other groups and you know there will be a thousand, 2000, 5000 people on there that can really serve as cheerleaders for you.
[OUT AT WORK MUSIC FADES IN]
KATHY: Oh, I love that.
TOBIN: I know, great advice all around.
TOBIN: Advice segment complete!
KATHY: One thing I thought a lot about while we going through voicemails is that it's a real privilege to be able to be out on the job.
TOBIN: Yeah and also it's a privilege that can come and go. Like feeling that you can be out on the job, there's so many factors in how that can evolve.
KATHY: And that's something that grabbed us when we heard from listener Will. Early in his career, he was very vocal about being out. But over time...
[MUSIC FADES IN]
WILL: Me being a gay black male became the focal point. And so as I got older I decided to keep that part of myself a little locked away.
TOBIN: And he says part of his decision to be less out came from losing his vision about ten years ago. We decided to give him a call to talk about it.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
KATHY: You're a lawyer.
WILL: Well I'm a paralegal.
WILL: I wanted to be a lawyer. Then I started working with them and I said never mind.
KATHY: I know what you're talking about.
TOBIN: So Will, you said early on you felt pretty comfortable being out on the job?
WILL: Yeah, I think I was about 21 or 22 years old. And that was my very first real paralegal job. And so I was very out at work. The person I was dating at the time would come visit me at work for lunch or just sit up there you know like young stupid people do...
[KATHY & TOBIN LAUGH]
WILL: ...bringing their partners to work. And I never hid it.
KATHY: You talked in your voicemail about feeling like you have all these different identities that make it tough for you to be out at work. Can you just say more about that?
WILL: I'm a black, gay male. And there's not a lot of guys that are paralegals and there's not a lot of black guys that are paralegals. So from the beginning, I felt like I had to really be watchful and I had to be the best in order to get any type of recognition. And then years later when I lost my sight, I've been blind for about 10 years now. And so you know it's really hard to find a job if you have any disability, but particularly when you're blind, because you can't hide that. So you really have to make sure you're dressed correctly, make sure your posture is great, you have a good attitude. So with that on top of the fact that I'm a minority in every way seems like, you know, I'm not as, I don't talk about it as readily.
TOBIN: Yeah. Well, so the office you work at now, the job you have now, how do you think about it?
WILL: The people who are out and work you know, they're, they're proud about it. They're loud about it. You know they've invited people to their wedding. So I see good things. But then those people are Caucasian. I think I'm the only black at this office, which you know is not a new, a new thing for me over my legal career. But with, like I said, with me getting older there are some battles I kind of don't want to wage. I just wanna earn my check so I can pay my bills and go on vacations and do things. I'll fight the battles outside of work.
KATHY: Alright so before we go, so many of you were so generous with sending us voice memos.
TOBIN: OMG SO NICE.
KATHY: And we just wanted to share a couple more of our favorite ones.
TOBIN: PLAY. THE. TAPE.
PERSON 10: I joined a dating site, went on a first date with a guy, things went well. We ended up making out. He got very into it and gave me a hickey. The next day I figured I’d be able to get away with it with no one noticing since I wear collared shirts, had my lab coat on. But I was wrong. Towards the end of the day, my technician finally looked at me and flat out asked, “who’s the lucky lady that gave you that hickey?” So I looked at her and I was like, “Well his name is…” And from that moment, things just felt right.
PERSON 11: I’m bisexual and I’m femme, so they ask me about boys and I tell them about boys, but they don’t ask me about girls so I don’t tell them about girls. But it’s not like I don’t talk about the movie Carol literally all the time.
PERSON 12: It’s almost as if I put on the suit of a different person when I go into work. When I come home, I take it off.
PERSON 13: I had been working at the company less than a week when my wife lost the baby at the beginning of the second trimester. And I didn’t tell anyone what happened except for my boss. I took one day off and grieved in silence. By the time we were pregnant again, it was time for me to tell my colleagues because I would be taking time off from work. To my astonishment, they threw us a virtual baby shower. I’m based up north, most of them are down south. The party was a blast, my wife was the guest of honor.
PERSON 14: Last year when my partner and I got married, I came out to my students. And the students were awesome, they mostly just had questions. One student totally honestly asked why she wasn’t invited.
PERSON 15: I've also lived and worked in a really, a rural western North Carolina town. I guess I want my brothers and sisters in those situations to know that we love them and we think about them, and we do what we can to fight for them.
[CREDITS MUSIC IN]
KATHY: Alright, that’s our show. Thank you to everyone who shared stories about being out at work. We’ve got results from our listener survey and links to a bunch of super helpful queer resources over at nancypodcast.org/work.
TOBIN: And folks, this is the last episode of our second season. Can you believe it?
TOBIN: But fear not! We’ve got a bunch of bonus episodes coming up, including updates on some of our favorite stories. Like, did you ever wonder how Kathy’s mom liked being in our very first episode?
KATHY: [LAUGHING] Oh...
TOBIN: Or notice how quickly Lena Waithe went from Nancy guest to Emmy winner?
KATHY: Close personal friend Lena Waithe.
KATHY: Yeah. We’ve got a lot to check back in on, starting in just a few weeks. But for now, credits!
TOBIN: Our producer...
KATHY: Matt Collette!
TOBIN: Sound designer...
KATHY: Jeremy Bloom!
KATHY: Elisabeth Dee!
KATHY: Jenny Lawton!
TOBIN: Executive producer...
KATHY: Paula Szuchman!
TOBIN: Special thanks this week to everyone who helped us with this project, especially Mandy Naglich, Anna Burke, and Alison Morgenstern.
KATHY: I’m Kathy Tu.
TOBIN: I’m Tobin Low.
KATHY: And Nancy is a production of WNYC Studios.
[CREDITS MUSIC ENDS]
TOBIN: I will not bring James Woods into this situation.
TOBIN: That's some bulls----. Not even an impression of James Woods will ever be on this show. Don't do it, I see you thinking about it!
KATHY: [LAUGHING] No no I just...
TOBIN: Shut the mics off right now!
TOBIN: Shut the mics off right now.