Brooke: This is On the Media, I'm Brooke Gladstone. The celebrity profile, as we've just heard, has struggled in a world of splintered media in DIY publicity. There's a subset of aspiring, bold-face names who'd sacrificed much for 2,000 words all about them, good or lancing. They are the desperate wannabes at the heart of the podcast Who? Weekly, hosted by Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber. Each week the duo, former journalists for Vulture and Jezebel pour over Instagram comments, no tap apologies, clap-back videos, and People Magazine captions to investigate the process whereby the non-famous attempt to climb the blood-stained rungs of celebrity.

We asked Bobby and Lindsey to record an end-of-the-year segment for us. Before we get to that, welcome to the show guys.

Lindsey Weber: Hi.

Bobby Finger: Hi, thanks for having us. [laughs].

Brooke: Let's first deal with the basics. Tell me how you defined whos and thems?

Bobby Finger: Think of yourself as being in the checkout line for a supermarket and you see an Us Weekly or a People. If you see someone on the cover who you recognize, your Will Smiths or Jennifer Anistons, you say, "Them." If you see someone that you've never seen before like maybe a reality star, or someone on a show you don't watch, or maybe just an Instagram influencer, you might say, "Who?"

Bobby Finger: In Rachel Simon's discussion of your show in The New Yorker, she wrote that you are, "Primarily anthropologists and that your aim is to taxonomize a new celebrity species, one that emerged in the 21st century with the rides of social media and smartphones." Tell me a little bit about the taxonomy.

Lindsey Weber: That's very her when ultimately what it boils down to is it's our opinion.

[laughter]

Lindsey Weber: We made this up and we get to say whos what. No, I think we've set many little rules over the passage of time, the way that they respond to being in media, how they seek out media, how they use different social platforms. Do they even use them at all? We've planted these little rules and things that obviously changed because, again, it's our opinion, that define the whos versus the thems.

Bobby Finger: I think you used the word desperate in your lovely introduction to us, but I think there's a lot to be said for desperation or at least desire. These are the people who really want to be talked about. They aren't people who shiver at a headline about them. They love it. They want people to know who they are, and they are acutely aware of the fact that that begins with them having no idea who they are and asking a lot of questions. I think that helps us find the people that we talk about. Who are the people who really want attention from us?

Brooke: A lot of us can name the cast of Friends or point out Brad Pitt in a checkout rack magazine, but we aren't ever going to know the whos. There's so many of them.

Lindsey Weber: There's too many of them.

[laughter]

Bobby Finger: I think something that's helpful is our call-in show. Sometimes there are celebrities who we may not consider even talking about because they tow the line between who and something we'd like to call just nahs, people who aren't famous enough, may not be seeking out the attention. If we get enough calls from our listeners that helps flag certain people who we may not consider otherwise.

Lindsey Weber: It's not just about who somebody is because they're on a show you like and you're just not quite sure what actor it is. It's also like, why is this person being recognized? Who's their fandom? What is actually the deal behind them having any notoriety at all? That's a lot of the questions that we get, which is the most fascinating.

Brooke: What, ultimately, if you are going to put together your body of work, what would someone draw from it?

Lindsey Weber: I think that what we are going for aside from just giving people a good laugh, because ultimately this stuff is funny, is that fame itself is there's no rules, but also all press is good press. The longer that we exist, the more we're able to see specific whos navigate that. We have an entire segment on Rita Ora, who is one of our all-time favorite whos. The reason is, is because she's never not in the media doing all of the various things that she does.

Brooke: I have no idea who she is.

Lindsey Weber: Exactly.

Bobby Finger: Perfect. That's a perfect example.

Lindsey Weber: She's a singer, she's an actress, she's a media icon, truly. You should know who she is because you're on the media. She's always on the media.

Brooke: One of the really interesting things about your show is that it's not judgmental. You seem to have a grudging respect for the desperate who.

Lindsey Weber: It takes a lot of work. I think that we're the ones who see it. Especially again, in the example of Rita Ora, not everyone can just get press like that, and not everyone can do what a lot of these whos can do. I think in a way we are obviously trying to laugh along with them and we try not to be judgmental.

Bobby Finger: I feel like in the late aughts, early 2010s, there was this whole new conversation being had about the famous people who were famous for being famous. That's a context in the way to discuss that sort of thing.

Lindsey Weber: Kim Kardashian.

Bobby Finger: Exactly. I think what we find delightful is that yes, being famous for being famous is an accurate portrayal of what they do. Also being famous is a job and it's a hilarious one. When that is your job more so than, "I'm an actor on this, I'm a writer on this." Any artist in some way. When your job is to be famous, that's funny.

Brooke: I think it's funny because it's tragic.

Lindsey Weber: I don't find it tragic at all.

Bobby Finger: At all. Because I think they're getting what they want. It would be tragic if they were struggling for something and couldn't attain it.

Lindsey Weber: This is not the Beyoncé's and Britney Spears who get too much fame and are like, "Oh no." Because as you know, once you're the most famous person in the world, it's quite lonely. It's quite destructive to your life.

Brooke: They are thems?

Lindsey Weber: Right. They're thems. We're talking about the whos. People who get a beer bought for them at the bar, they sign an autograph, they love the attention. We're dealing with the people who find joy in the process, and we find humor in that joy and we're all hopefully working together on this.

Brooke: We came out of an interview about celebrity profiles. What prompted it was The New Yorker profile of Jeremy Strong. I'm wondering is Jeremy Strong now a them or still a who? Is Succession a who or them show?

Lindsey Weber: Wow. Bobby, you get to deal with this.

Bobby Finger: I think character actors are always tough. Because Jeremy is so I guess, we learned this in the profile, dedicated to his craft and he doesn't really exist outside of the work. He's so obsessive over that. I think he would be a who, because he's not really out here hungry for the type of fame that we talk about. He's just here to work.

Lindsey Weber: Anything that's particularly niche we tend to put in a who bucket too.

Bobby Finger: I think the show is a them, despite the ratings. Compared to an HBO show like Game of Thrones the ratings aren't that high, but in terms of the cultural conversation, it's deafening at this point. I think that helps make it a them.

Brooke: Such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Bobby Finger: Thank you.

Lindsey Weber: Thank you.

[music]

Brooke: Now that we've explained your terms of art, let's listen to the segment you recorded for us regarding celebrity in 2021, Who? Weekly style.

Bobby Finger: Early on in the pandemic, we're talking I think day two of lockdown, Gal Gadot and her friends, most A-listers AKA thems, released their dreaded, I wish I could forget it, Imagine video.

Speaker 1: Imagine all the people.

Bobby Finger: In which they sing Imagine for no reason from their mansions and told everyone that it was going to be okay based on pretty much nothing, based on their own comfort. It seems like after that they all went into hiding.

Lindsey Weber: All these movies were delayed. TV shows were delayed. They weren't able to film. Things just got pushed back. Therefore a lot of the big stars, the thems, the A-listers, they said, "We don't have to do press. We are not going to be out there. We're not going to give you those tabloid shots. We're not going to give you the paparazzi pics you need." To fill the void, a lot of tabloids and celebrity media put in the whos, the whos were available. They were posting on Instagram. They were still calling the paparazzi and therefore they filled that hole, therefore shifting the entire medium of celebrities. We cared more about whos. All of a sudden there they were.

Bobby Finger: The most Googled celebrity of 2020 was Addison Rae, who is a TikTok star.

Addison Rae: I'm going to try this mascara. I now already have a ton of mascara.

Bobby Finger: We wanted to know about Addison Ray and other TikTok stars and lesser-known celebrities simply because we wanted celebrities in our lives in some way and they were filling the void.

Lindsey Weber: That's true. We were so bored.

Bobby Finger: Right. We needed an escape and the A-listers weren't doing the work. The whos were doing the work. We got worried that we would lose this A-list sensibility in the future. In going through the calendar year, it's fun to see them all come out of hiding slowly but surely to the point where in December everyone's here. Let's just begin in January. One of the big themy things that happened in January happened on January 5th.

Speaker 2: It's official, Kim Kardashian and Kanye West's love story is coming to an end.

Bobby Finger: Kim and Kanye announced their divorce. Two of the biggest stars on the planet, at the very least in the United States. It took us all by surprise and we were all captivated.

Lindsey Weber: Other two interesting things that happened in the next few months that really had A-listers back in the forefront was the Free Britney documentary premiere. Having Britney Spears back in the limelight again was an interesting thing. Despite really the story being about her wanting to be away from the limelight, somehow she was back as a conversation point. The other thing that happened that was really interesting was the Oprah special with Megan Markle and Prince Harry, it was a huge one.

Oprah: Were you silent or were you silenced?

Bobby Finger: It was one of the first pieces of must-see television during the pandemic.

Lindsey Weber: Everybody was watching.

Bobby Finger: Everyone was watching this piece of live television together and commenting on it. Even though so much of it was very depressing, and very dark and very sad, she talked about her racist experiences within the royal family among other things.

Meghan Markle: We had to go to this event and I remember him saying, "I don't think you can go." I said, "I can't be left alone."

Oprah: Because you were afraid of what you might do to yourself?

Bobby Finger: It was something that we all talked about and experienced together and that felt like a real turning point in the pandemic.

Lindsey Weber: I think the missing piece that people really craved was mass media. We were all watching Mare of Easttown, that's the best that we could do. We missed that celebrity event, which is interesting, because then the Oscars roll around and everyone's so excited for the Oscars, but what happens is they have to do the pared down Oscars, understandably. We thought, "If they get this right, this could be the way the Oscars are moving forward." As it turns out, nobody liked them at all. They were awful. They straight up did not work.

Bobby Finger: I'll never forget the opening of the Oscars. They were directed by Steven Soderbergh. They were so excited they showed Regina King walking down the hallway.

[music]

[applause]

Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, Regina King.

Bobby Finger: Then, instantly after her opening speech, everything else dropped like a bird. It was so disappointing.

Lindsey Weber: What are the big things shifted us back into the themdom culture we craved?

Bobby Finger: What was funny is that so much of it was like, "I wish we could go back to normal," Aka 2019. It turns out the most successful strategy was to go back in time even further. In the middle of the year a good midpoint was when two old pieces of American pop culture came back in a roaring way.

Jennifer Aniston: Where's the tissue box?

James Corden: The cast of Friends.

Lindsey Weber: The Friends reunion, which has been delayed a million times and finally comes to fruition, our best friends back together again or whatever.

Bobby Finger: Our best friends.

Lindsey Weber: We cared so much. Then, as if God heard us all pleading for a big spicy story, Beniffer, J. Lo and Ben Affleck, after years of being apart, get back together.

Speaker 4: The kiss scene around the world. Yes, Ben and Jen are certainly not shy and showing off their PDA.

Lindsey Weber: Really, it's insane that this all happened this year.

Bobby Finger: Then unfortunately, the summer I think was a dud. We thought we'd get big summer blockbusters, people still weren't comfortable going out to the movies, we stayed indoors, we hunkered down. Then at the beginning of the fall celebrities once again try to pop back out and go back to old times.

Jimmy Kimmel: In New York City last night the biggest and most tone deaf stars got all dolled up for the annual Met Gala.

Lindsey Weber: The Met Gala, it definitely fixed some of the things the Oscars messed up on. Met Gala definitely said, "We're going to be big and glamorous as we always are."

Bobby Finger: One of the moments of the Met Gala that made me think, "We're heading back in the right direction, things are going to be okay," is at the very end when we have been waiting, watching the red carpet coverage online for hours, I'm talking hours and hours, and we're wondering who our number one Met Gala queen is. Then finally she shows up at the end.

Speaker 5: OMG, my girl Rihanna finally on the red carpet at the Met Gala. She is making it official with ASAP Rocky. Rhianna.

Bobby Finger: This is as A list as it gets. Absolutely.

Lindsey Weber: Perfect.

Bobby Finger: This feels comfortable.

Lindsey Weber: Rihanna at the Met Gala was like we're home.

Bobby Finger: We're home.

Lindsey Weber: Right after that movies were back. You had the release of James Bond, you had the release of Dune which was a huge movie. Despite movies going to streaming first sometimes, they were still going back into theaters as well. Therefore the A listers were coming out and doing press for them the same way that they always did.

Bobby Finger: I saw Dune in theaters twice and I could have watched it at home. I was so desperate to get back to big budget, mono culture movie going which takes us right to November. We have been waiting for a new Adele album for years and years and years and it finally happened in November.

Lindsey Weber: Talk about mass media, it felt like everybody had a listen.

Bobby Finger: Adele got the very classic comfortable press coverage. She was on the cover of every magazine possible. She went on every talk show possible. She also talked to Oprah. She was giving us the press tour that we had grown conditioned to before the pandemic.

Lindsey Weber: Even a huge star studded performance that was aired on TV at the Griffith Observatory in LA, even a TV special she got.

Oprah: Good evening, everyone. I'm Oprah Winfrey. Right now it is my great delight to introduce the 15 time Grammy winning icon Adele.

Bobby Finger: Lindsey, more people watched that than watch the Oscars.

Lindsey Weber: It doesn't surprise me one bit.

Bobby Finger: We're back.

Lindsey Weber: Truly we're back. We had to care about Addison Ray and now we're like Addison who?

Bobby Finger: As exciting as it is to meet new whos, there's something so comforting about the people you already know and love, you know?

Lindsey Weber: I know, it's true.

Bobby Finger: Addison Ray cannot compete.

Brooke: Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber are the CO hosts of the podcast Who? Weekly. One last thing before you go, and the answer is so obvious. I'm just saying it because Katya our executive producer put it in the prep, On the Media, who or them?

Lindsey Weber: You guys are a who, I'm sorry. [laughs]

Bobby Finger: You're who.

Lindsey Weber: Your beloved niche who, you love the media.

Bobby Finger: Niche who.

Lindsey Weber: So do we.

Bobby Finger: You're whos.

Brooke: That's it for this week's show. On the Media is produced by Micah Loewinger, Eloise Blondiau, Rebecca Clark-Callender and Eli Cohen with help from [unintelligible 00:15:59] Xandra Ellen writes our newsletter. Our technical director is Jennifer Munson. Our engineer this week was Adrian Lily. Katya Rogers is our executive producer on the media is a production of WNYC studios. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

 

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