BROOKE GLADSTONE This is On the Media, I'm Brooke Gladstone.
BOB GARFIELD And Bob Garfield. With 14 so-called militiamen charged within the past two weeks in a kidnap plot against Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, it has not been difficult to make certain critical connections.
TRUMP Stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what. [END CLIP]
WHITMER Stand back and stand by, he told them. Hate groups heard the president's words not as a rebuke, but as a rallying cry, as a call to action. [END CLIP]
BOB GARFIELD That was Whitmer, and yes, there has been action. Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer Militia inciting violence in Portland. The neo-Nazi Atomwaffen Division now rebranded as the National Socialist Order linked to five murders. Alleged teen shooter Kyle Rittenhouse unaffiliated but taking up arms with militiamen in Kenosha, Wisconsin. This week, secret tapes surfaced of a neo-Nazi group calling itself The Base planning recruitment of current and former military, all with dog whistles, retweets and sometimes direct incitement from the president. So, yes, easy to connect those dots. In a moment, we will look at how these groups themselves connect to fellow travelers and just among themselves. But first, let's consider yet a third kind of connection. The language we use to put a name to the various activities and pathologies on the violent far-right.
What these locked and loaded paramilitaries called themselves is militias. And that term has taken hold in the media, too. Gretchen Whitmer's great chagrin. They're not militias, she tweeted this week, they're domestic terrorists, endangering and intimidating their fellow Americans. University at Albany Professor Sam Jackson, who studies antigovernment extremism, agrees that whatever the Wolverine Watchmen are, it sure isn't the militias our founders envisioned in the Constitution.
SAM JACKSON It seems that those who wrote the Constitution had this clear idea that there would be a standing military. And then there would be this militia force, which was organized by the states. And the federal government had the authority under certain conditions to temporarily take control of those militia units.
BOB GARFIELD Kind of like what is now the Army National Guard.
SAM JACKSON Exactly. Over the course of a number of decades, what was originally described as the militia through a series of incremental changes in law became the National Guard.
BOB GARFIELD But what has sprung up over the past 30 or 40 years. Sure. Isn't that these are unregulated paramilitaries, not only independent of government, but often hostile to government.
SAM JACKSON Exactly. These are people who have adopted the label of militia pointing back to those founding documents in order to legitimize their paramilitary activity.
BOB GARFIELD Yeah, they called themselves militias. Did the press just get suckered into accepting this constitutionally memorialized term?
SAM JACKSON I don't know if I would go that far. I think it's reasonable for the media and for other observers to use labels that these types of actors create for themselves as long as the use of those labels comes with an explanation of what they mean and how they're being used.
BOB GARFIELD On the other hand, there are other words that do convey so much more. Vigilante comes to mind.
SAM JACKSON When I think of vigilante's, I think of Wild West Frontier Towns. Posse's taking it upon themselves to enforce the law. And while it may be true that some of these actors, like those who are accused in Michigan in this plot to kidnap the governor, while it may be true that they think of themselves as trying to enforce the law, I think that vigilante maybe gives a little bit too much credence to that.
BOB GARFIELD And just terrorist?
SAM JACKSON Because of how language works. We label acts as terrorism and then we sort of adopt that same label to describe people who commit those acts. There's a little bit of potential confusion there, though, because if someone lies one time, do we call that person a liar? Or do they need to have a habit of lying before we call them a liar? Does someone need to commit an act of terrorism to be a terrorist? Do they need to just plot an act of terrorism? Do they just need to express admiration for or support for an act of terrorism?
BOB GARFIELD Strictly speaking, terrorism is political violence that is committed in order to focus attention on the cause. So an assassination, for example, isn't necessarily terrorism, but something designed to terrorize the public at large for sure. Do you know where these Michigan guys fall in?
SAM JACKSON The question is, would the kidnaping be an attempt to communicate to other people involved in government? Hey, this fate will happen to you as well if you also engage in similar sorts of activity, or if they were much more instrumentally, just thinking this governor is a problem. Therefore, we will kidnap this one person.
BOB GARFIELD Can you give me a roster of the most prominent militia organizations?
SAM JACKSON I'll offer a caveat before I do that, though, which is I tend to think of this as a movement rather than focusing in on groups. When scholars talk about movements. We often think about coalitions that are united by similar ideas or similar goals. The difference between that and an organization or a group is that groups have relatively clear boundaries about who is a member versus not a member. But social movements scholars, for example, would talk about a social movement as being made up of multiple groups and independent actors who are working together to promote similar goals. I do want to push back a little bit on something, which is that some of these militia groups are explicitly white supremacist. And I think that that is by and large not true. In the 90s and in the historical predecessors of these militia groups, there was more explicit racism. But as we saw, the second wave of this movement emerge in two thousand eight or so, we really saw a rejection of racism. And this is not oh, I'm a white nationalist, not a white supremacist. This is people who are prominent and important within the movement saying we reject racism full stop.
BOB GARFIELD Such as the Oath Keepers.
SAM JACKSON Exactly. So Oath Keepers is a really prominent group within this movement now. Oath Keepers formed in 2009. And they actually went through the trouble of writing up formal bylaws for their organization. And one of the clauses in their bylaws is that they prohibit anyone who has ever previously been affiliated with a racist organization from joining their group. And in fact, the president and founder of Oath Keepers. When people ask him this question, his response is always, I'm a quarter Mexican. How could I possibly be racist? Now, this is a little bit more complicated, of course, than than these actors would like to portray it because there is still bigotry within their ranks. They would say we're not opposed to all immigrants were opposed to those who come in the wrong way. We're not opposed to all Muslims were opposed to radical Muslims. That distinction breaks down a little bit when you look at their actual actions. However, I think it's really important to recognize that white supremacist groups, organizations and movements perceive a racial identity and they organize around that racial identity. For those in militia groups, the identity that they're organizing around is a patriotic one or a nationalist one, not a racial one,.
BOB GARFIELD Um, except when it isn't. Tell me about the boogaloo movement.
SAM JACKSON Boogaloo fundamentally refers to this idea that America is soon to face a second civil war. It refers to this Internet meme of anytime you're describing the second version of something, you call it the thing two electric boogaloo referencing this awful 1980s movie. So for the Boogaloo folks, they think that soon we're going to see Civil War two Electric Boogaloo. What gets complicated is there are anti-government elements that are explicitly organized around that anti-government stance and others who are explicitly organized around a sense that this second civil war that's coming. This will be the race war that that we've been anticipating for so long.
BOB GARFIELD What about the Three Percenters? We've discussed them on the show. Where do they fit into this ecosystem?
SAM JACKSON Within the Patriot militia movement? The second wave that began in 2008, there are two dominant factions. One is Oath Keepers and the second is Three Percenters. Unlike Oath Keepers, Three Percenters is not a formal organization with clear membership lists or anything like that. Instead, Three Percenters refers to this dubious notion that three percent of those who lived in the British colonies in the late 18th century fought back against the British and won America's independence. And people who adopt this language believe that if three percent of Americans today resist the tyrannical government, they can also defeat tyranny. What we saw was this language around three percenters emerged around the two thousand eight point, and people around the country started adopting that rhetoric. And the related symbol, the roman numerals three surrounded by a circle of stars. And these different organizations that have incorporated Three Percenters into their name, in some way, don't necessarily have any relationship with other groups that have Three Percenters in their name. And in fact, there have been some call them, internecine squabbles between different actors who adopt Three Percenters rhetoric and symbols.
BOB GARFIELD Three percent is 10 million people in the United States. We're not at that threshold, are we?
SAM JACKSON No. Although the gentleman who came up with the idea, the three percenters, his name is Mike Vanderboegh. He used to say we only need three percent of gun owners. There are 100 million gun owners in America, so that's three million people. What is an uncomfortable coincidence? I hope people who study gun ownership in America have found that three percent of gun owners own something like 50 percent of all of the guns held in private hands in America.
BOB GARFIELD Oh, sweet mother of God. I hope those are different three percents.
SAM JACKSON I really hope that it's a very unfortunate coincidence.
BOB GARFIELD Sam, thank you so much.
SAM JACKSON You're welcome.
BOB GARFIELD Sam Jackson is a professor of emergency preparedness, homeland security and cybersecurity at the University at Albany.
BROOKE GLADSTONE As we slouch toward November 3rd, the fear of organized political violence looms large. But how exactly do such vigilantes or militiamen, white nationalists, terrorists? Call them what you will organize, mobilize and coordinate their activities. How can they be deterred? On the Media, reporter Michael Lowinger revisits the communications app far right groups use to fight the fight.
MILTIA MEMBER It looks like we are going into the fray too much to keep us in your prayers. I just left to voice messages one for my father, one for my wife. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER This is a militia members speaking on a walkie talkie app called Zello .
MILTIA MEMBER If I should fall, I want to be remembered as a patriot. Let history show that I stood up against this tyranny, but I'm not gonna fall because I'm a warrior, and I'm going to kick some f*ckin' ass [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER He was psyching himself up before a showdown with ANTIFA, that never happened. I ran across many other violent fantasies like this while monitoring militia groups on Zello. But the app is better known for other things, like communication by overnight truckers, activists in Venezuela and humanitarian aid efforts.
HAMPTON STALL Basically, the way that it works is people join a chat room and you push a button to talk. And when you release the button and you're done talking, it cuts your mic again.
MICAH LOEWINGER That's Hampton Stall, an Atlanta based researcher and founder of a blog called Militia Watch. We teamed up on this story when we learned we shared a strong interest in tracking far right activity on Zello.
HAMPTON STALL There's like a little bit of a fetishization of ham radio operation in the armed militia, right. The difference between ham radio and Zello is that Zello allows for very fast audio communication between a pretty good amount of people across any distance, as long as people have connection to either wireless or cellular Internet.
MICAH LOEWINGER Another difference is that Zello records and saves everything that's said. Users can also set a password and decide who is allowed to talk. Some miltia's we found operate several Zello channels at the same time. One for interviewing new recruits, one for leaders to discuss operations, one for training in the woods and another for sharing intel in small talk.
HAMPTON STALL Any regular radio commands you would hear in the military are often replicated in militia use of walkie talkie apps,.
MILTIA MEMBER A solid copy of that intel you gave me. [END CLIP].
HAMPTON STALL Like solid copy.
[CLIP] MILTIA MEMBER Radio check [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER To an outsider hearing this kind of talk, it plays in to a perception that it's a big LARP. You know, it's a big live action role play. Grown men playing army.
HAMPTON STALL But I think it kind of stops being LARP when the weapons are real.
MICAH LOEWINGER In the past decade, people associated with far right militias have plotted to bomb mosques, shot protesters and kidnaped migrants at the southern border. We found a couple hundred such groups on Zello, everything from Boogaloo boys to Proud Boys to outright white nationalists. But the vast majority of such channels belong to Three Percenter militias. These groups have drawn the media spotlight this year by rallying behind a steady stream of culture war causes. There was the gun rally in Virginia, known as lobby day.
NEWS REPORT Gun rights supporters gathered in huge numbers today in Richmond, Virginia. They are protesting a wave of gun control measures being proposed by the newly elected Democrat. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER The COVID lockdown protests in Michigan.
NEWS REPORT As protesters moved into the Capitol building, Democratic State Senator Dayna Polehanki posted this photo saying directly above me, men with rifles yelling at us. Some of my colleagues who own bulletproof vests are wearing them. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER The Black Lives Matter protests sparked by the murder of George Floyd.
NEWS REPORT Peaceful protests, met by armed men and Confederate flags. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER And conspiracy theories of ANTIFA infiltrating white suburbs.
NEWS REPORT Stay safe and lock and loaded. That's the warning in this Facebook post made Tuesday afternoon. Police call it a false rumor that claimed ANTIFA had three bus loads of members ready to hit neighborhoods in. [END CLIP]
JOAN DONOVAN It's an interesting situation that we find ourselves in where America is heavily armed. Right.
MICAH LOEWINGER Joan Donovan directs research at the Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy at Harvard University.
JOAN DONOVAN And there are a lot of folks right now who have been socially isolated for a very long period of time, and have been reaching out through social media because they don't know how to assess the risks posed by the pandemic political environment that we're in.
MICAH LOEWINGER The heightened polarization, the increased visibility of these armed groups, combined with the anxiety and anger about the news, drove prospective recruits to right wing forums and Facebook groups where militia guys shared passwords with step by step instructions about how to join their zealot channels.
HAMPTON STALL And so you joined the group and then the officers will invite you for an interview. They'll ask you some questions about what area you're in, whatever sort of ideological requirements there are for joining said militia.
RECRUITER What interested you in the three percent movement where you heard about the three percent?
CANDIDATE I was actually approached in conversation during a anti-war protests of ANTIFA and BLM in Brandon, Mississippi. [END CLIP]
RECRUITER Do all of you have the backing of your family? Do they know that you on an interview tonight?
CANDIDATE I'm the man of the house, so, you know, if I need to go somewhere or do something that's going to happen. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER To be clear, neither Hampton nor I ever pretended to be a militia guy or a potential recruit. We merely lurked in the background.
RECRUITER So what do you got? What kind of experience you got? Military, law enforcement, medical?
CANDIDATE 3-1 Bravo. Military police. I know a lot about weapons, munitions, and a fair amount of gear. [END CLIP]
RECRUITER It's like a second job. It's us tyranny. It's us or failure. It's us or a post-American world. Don't give two shits about anybody that's less than 100 percent all the f*ck in. Are you all the f*ck in, over?
CANDIDATE I ain't got nothing holding me back. If it kills me, it kills me. [END CLIP].
JOAN DONOVAN The ways in which those groups come together and do recruitment through platforms really has to do with them unapologetically believing that they can actually become a proxy for law enforcement.
MICAH LOEWINGER Joan Donovan.
JOAN DONOVAN And, so I think the continuous engagement with one another through social media has really normalized the notion of the vigilante.
MICAH LOEWINGER Vigilantes, of course, are not law enforcement. They're not accountable to the public or trained to de-escalate violence. That's why some observers shudder at the thought of armed militias, say standing guard at polling stations in November. Monitoring Zello, we did hear some references to violence surrounding the election, but it was about how to react to it.
MILTIA MEMBER 1 We have to stay vigilant, stay well trained and maintain our composure so that we don't ever fire that first shot. That would kill us. [END CLIP]
MILTIA MEMBER 2 Yeah, Roger that, sir. We fired the first shot, we're done. I mean, the public view is turning around about us. And that's the way we need to keep it. We don't need to do anything to tarnish that. [END CLIP]
MEGAN SQUIRE They're fantasizing, again. Oh, there's gonna be all this, you know, riots in the streets, we gotta be ready, guys. We got to be ready. But they're not talking about themselves going out there and doing it.
MICAH LOEWINGER Megan Squire, a professor of computer science at Elon University, has been tracking discussions of the election from far right groups online.
MEGAN SQUIRE The whole vigilantism is couched in this language of protection, and that's started in earnest with the reopened protest element to protect your business from the police who are trying to shut you down. And then it went to George Floyd, "oh, I'm going to protect you from the looters." And that's persisting, now. I'm going to protect Trump from election meddling. That idea that this vigilantism is justified from a protection standpoint - yeowch. That's terrifying, because now they have a reason. Right. And it's a reason that makes them look like a hero.
MICAH LOEWINGER And then there's this growing body of evidence that some local police departments are enabling it. Hours before Kyle Rittenhouse shot three protesters, killing two in an alleged act of self-defense, he and the Kenosha Guard, a local militia, were thanked by law enforcement. They even offered the vigilante's bottles of water.
MICAH LOEWINGER Rittenhouse provides a template for examining how violence might unfold in the coming months. Here was an armed vigilante who use social media to find other armed vigilantes. With the approval of law enforcement, they patrolled the streets looking for conflict. But Rittenhouse was overwhelmed when he found it, and so he shot his way out.
For better or worse, police and social media play crucial roles in the likelihood of these scenarios recurring. Let's start with the cops. While listening to Zello, Hampton and I observed three times when militia members claimed they had coordinated with law enforcement. For example, one group called the Georgia Three Percent Martyrs expressed deep distrust of the police in their chat room, but claimed to have teamed up with them at a BLM protest south of Atlanta.
MILTIA MEMBER When Payne, Ivo, J3 and myself rolled up Southlake Mall and assisted the Morrow Police Department, we were in full battle rattle and Payne, even cited in on somebody and they didn't mess with us. [END CLIP]
HAMPTON STALL The fact that the police are, you know, allegedly standing next to a militia member who is pointing a rifle and looking down his sights, said protester, is highly troubling.
MICAH LOEWINGER I was interested in this, so I reached out to a reporter named Robin Kemp, who wrote for a Web site that she started called the Clayton Crescent. She was there at Southlake Mall and she sent me audio of the scene.
MICAH LOEWINGER She walked with the protesters, about 150 of them,.
ROBIN KEMP Almost all African-American people who are marching. There was no violence or vandalism or anything like that. It was like a very joyful, family oriented feeling of people assembling for the march in the parking lot of the shopping mall on the weekend.
PROTESTERS And this time that we speak up, we stand up and we make the world know that Black Lives Matter. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER Was this like the only Black Lives Matter protest at the Southlake Mall over the summer?
ROBIN KEMP Yeah, I think. That was the only one.
MICAH LOEWINGER She did not see very many police officers there and she did not see any militia guys there. If this did happen, then the police and the militia were out of sight off to the side.
HAMPTON STALL It's very common for militias to either go on roofs or go around corners and just be staged nearby. There was a Black Lives Matter protest here in Atlanta back in 2016 that I attended. And as I was leaving, I took a wrong turn in the parking garage and ended up on the on the roof and two spaces over there was a jeep with four men with rifles in their hands looking out over the protest. There's a lot of work that happens that isn't super visible.
MICAH LOEWINGER It's worth noting, too, that Zello is just one app that militias use for organizing. So I wouldn't have access to their communication on, say, telegram or Facebook chat. In a written statement, the Georgia Three Percent Martyrs' denied that they were at this event. The Morrow Police Department did not respond to our request for comment. A month after the mural protests, I caught wind of another potential police militia relationship in Georgia.
MILTIA MEMBER 1 I got word from Douglas County Sheriff's Department today that they're supposed to have a protest in Douglas County where their monument and civil war monument. They said within the next week they may reach out and ask for assistance.
MILTIA MEMBER 2 And if possible, we'll will give it. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER That's two guys from the Three Percent Security Force speaking on July 2nd. One week later, there was, in fact, a Black Lives Matter protest at the Civil War monument. But we're not sure the three percenters ever showed up. The three percent security force militia denied that they had contact with the police. The Douglas County Sheriff's Department did not respond to our request for comment. The third example of alleged coordination between armed vigilantes and local police actually reveals a course of action for reducing violence in the future. It involves the Michigan Home Guard, a militia that made national news in May when it defended Carl Minkey, a barber shop owner who defied state lockdown measures by reopening his business.
NEWS REPORT Members of the Michigan militia say they will take action to keep Nanking from going to jail. [END CLIP]
HOME GUARD We are willing to stand in front of that door and block the entrance so that the police will have no entry there today. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER A few weeks later, word begins to spread that there's an upcoming Black Lives Matter protests in the works. A couple local politicians and at least a couple armed militias, including the Michigan Home Guard, are preparing to attend. Then Livingston County Sheriff Michael Murphy posts this video to his department's Facebook page.
MURPHY So here's the deal. I've had personal conversation with Rob from 2A, Mike Detmer and former Sheriff Bob Azat asked both to stand down to not show up tomorrow. Let me tell you a little story. Back in the mid 90s, there was a KKK rally held on the steps of the old courthouse. That was the biggest non event that this county has ever seen. The community really banded together and had other activities to do. A handful of people, maybe 20 at the most, showed up for the KKK to do their thing. They realized that they didn't get the reaction that they were looking for. They packed up and left. So it was a beautiful thing. That said, my plea is if you just stay away, there's no stage for anybody to make this thing go sideways. [END CLIP]
HAMPTON STALL That's fascinating.
MICAH LOEWINGER Isn't that fascinating?
HAMPTON STALL I hadn't seen that.
MICAH LOEWINGER I think it's a little problematic to compare the KKK to Black Lives Matter protesters. But I understand the point that he was trying to make, which is that showing up in force in response to something could have the effect of pouring gasoline on the fire.
HAMPTON STALL Yeah. Michigan has an extensive history with right wing militias referring to these militia as the 2A community is laundering that history through something that is deemed a little bit more politically neutral, a constitutional amendment.
MICAH LOEWINGER That's a good point. And as I listen to the Michigan Home Guard on Zello kind of making sense of the message from the sheriff, there was some frustration and anger. And I would also say confusion.
HOME GUARD So Livingston County sheriff there requested Hungary and other vetted militia groups to come and help him with extra security. And then later came out publicly and said he did not do that. He does not want any 2A people there to stay away. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER There was a rumor that spread in the Michigan Home Guard Zello group that even after he made that video, he secretly said, no, Michigan Home Guard should come.
HOME GUARD 1 No, I still want you there. I just want you to stand back and make sure nobody sees you more or less. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER I still want them to come. I basically just want them to keep a low profile.
HOME GUARD 2 Well, that's not shady, at all.
HOME GUARD 3 Pardon me, that bullsh*t, and, you know, he should have just kept his mouth shut. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER The next day, the sheriff posted to Facebook denying this rumor. And again, there's a lot about what happened behind the scenes that we can't verify, but by addressing the militias publicly, asking these groups to not show up, the sheriff seemed to at least annoy them enough to the point that they decided not to go.
HOME GUARD Yeah, our LT gave us an official stand down on the Livingston thing. [END CLIP]
MICAH LOEWINGER Sheriff Michael Murphy denied that he was in contact with the militia. The Michigan Home Guard did not respond to our request for comment. We couldn't get a complete picture of what happened in any of these examples. But the tapes demonstrate that local law enforcement wield a ton of influence over local militia activity. The police may either ignore, condone, invite it or effectively tamp it down. Social media companies face a similar choice. This summer, Facebook deleted thousands of militia pages. Twitter also booted a bunch of militia accounts, as did Discord. A smaller app that has long incubated far right groups.
MEGAN SQUIRE We were very concerned about discord during the rise of the alt-right, because discord was a minor app and it really wasn't able to understand enough about what was happening on its platform. Because they would see, oh, you know, it's just 13 people, and that ends up being like Atomwaffen. A group of people that are coordinating violence.
MICAH LOEWINGER In the name of white supremacy.
MEGAN SQUIRE Exactly, and so Zello has to have a procedure and a policy and enforcement mechanisms where they do not tolerate this kind of behavior. Unless it's the business model.
MICAH LOEWINGER You'd think it would be hard for Zello corporate to miss what's happening on their own platform. If Hampton and I alone could locate 200 far right groups ranging from Oath Keepers to straight up Nazis. According to Zella's own terms of service, the app can remove anything that, quote, represents promotion of celebration with violent extremist ideologies, groups and tactics. We reached out to the company asking how it was enforcing its terms of service. In a written statement, Zello told us that the company, quote, allows speech protected by the U.S. Constitution and law.
Late in our reporting process, we spoke with an employee from Zello who asked to remain anonymous. The employee sent us a company-wide e-mail from June that detailed some of the militia and white nationalist activity on the app. The employee said that in a subsequent company-wide meeting, Zello CEO Bill Moore said essentially that because the platform was not legally responsible for any harm caused by those far right groups, it would not kick them off the site. Nor would Zello implement new moderation practices to deter this type of organizing in the future. Zello responded to us saying that, quote, The employees characterization is inaccurate and misleading, end quote. The company confirmed that the most concrete actions to come out of its internal review were two. One, de-index, all pages of user generated content, which includes the far right stuff from search engines. So now when you Google Zello Three Percent or Zello Nazi, those channels don't show up, but you can still find them by searching on Zello. And two, Zello removed a trending channels feature that may have amplified hate groups. For Zello's full response. Go to onthemedia.org.
From now until November 3rd, at least, we'll be concerned about the potential for violence around the election. Researcher Megan Squire says her phone has been off the hook.
MEGAN SQUIRE Probably five times today, different reporters, five times yesterday every single day. That's the question that I'm getting.
MEGAN SQUIRE No one knows the answer, but too much blood has been shed already for any police department or online platform to pretend there was nothing they could have done to help stop it. For On the Media, I'm Micah Loewinger.
BOB GARFIELD That's it for this week's show. On the Media is produced by Alana Casanova-Burgess, Micah Loewinger, Leah Feder, Jon Hanrahan, and Eloise Blondiau with help from Ava Sasani. And our show was edited...By Brooke. Our technical director is Jennifer Munson. Our engineers this week were Adrian Lilly and Josh Hahn.
BROOKE GLADSTONE Katya Rogers is our executive producer. On the Media is a production of WNYC Studios, I'm Brooke Gladstone.
BOB GARFIELD And I'm Bob Garfield.
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