NPR’s Culture Clash


April 20, 2002


BOB GARFIELD: We're back with On the Media. I'm Bob Garfield.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And I'm Brooke Gladstone. The world of public radio was in a small uproar last week with the announcement by NPR of a major overhaul in its cultural programming. The reorganization will eliminate some 15 jobs at NPR's Washington headquarters, redirect resources from network-produced culture programs to its news magazines and substantially alter the daily classical program Performance Today. The network will also develop 24 hour streams of classical music that local stations can use as they choose.

BOB GARFIELD:There will also be more attention paid to developing entertainment programs and to the coverage within the news magazines of culture -- both high brow and popular. The architect of these changes is senior vice president for programming Jay Kernis, founding producer 23 years ago of Morning Edition. Kernis returned to NPR a year ago after a long stint with CBS News. He joins us now. Jay, welcome to the big, big show.

JAY KERNIS: Thank you, Bob.

BOB GARFIELD: All right now first as a matter of full disclosure we should say that On the Media is distributed by National Public Radio and as such you have a substantial amount of influence on our fate as a show. That out of the way, you've said that in essence less is more. You've cut jobs and said that cultural programming will increase and improve. Do the math for me.

JAY KERNIS: Well I think there's some things the audience should know first, and that is in my job I don't program 680 public radio stations across the country. I mean people think I sit in my office and I make decisions for local public radio stations. I don't.

BOB GARFIELD:So you're just trying to create a better palette of programs from which the station program directors and station managers can choose.

JAY KERNIS: Yeah. That's absolutely right. We asked the stations what's important to you in terms of what NPR is doing culturally. Here's what the stations told us: the cultural material that's on Morning Edition and All Things Considered -- very important. They also talked about Fresh Air with Terry Gross. They talked about Car Talk. Of lesser priority to them -- I mean look -- our stations are dedicated to classical music and jazz, but of less importance was the classical music programming that we were feeding nationally and, and the jazz programs that we were feeding nationally. And so I thought well that's-- that's sort of a problem! I mean we're asking very talented people to do wonderful programming, and if a local radio station is scheduling it at a time possibly when fewer people are listening or when very few people even listen to radio, it means that that program probably could be better.

BOB GARFIELD:To what extent are the stations in the NPR system as far as you know making decisions based purely on what the audience numbers seem to suggest, based on what generates the most pledge dollars as opposed to what I understood NPR's mission to be which is to serve the under-served.

JAY KERNIS: I, I, I - I mean to - I mean to interrupt there. That is not public radio's mission --to serve the under-served. Public radio's mission is to work in partnership with member stations to create a more informed public --one challenged and invigorated by a deeper understanding and appreciation of essential events, ideas and cultures.

BOB GARFIELD:All right, here's where I'm going with this Jay. Everyone loves Car talk, but presumably we don't want a whole network full of Car Talks. The commercial path would be to figure out what generates the most audience and come up with as many programs that the largest number of people are listening to and willing to write their pledge checks to support - but the public radio's model as I understand it is to use programming discretion to figure out what's good - not just what's popular but what's good. So is there a conflict between the desire to serve audiences and give NPR listeners what they've proved they want based on their pledge checks and the idea of creating quality programming.

JAY KERNIS: It depends how you use the research. I use research as a tool. We're s-- we're spending dollars hard earned, and I want to make sure and everyone at National Public Radio wants to make sure that we measure it in some way -that, that we're able to say to the public and to public radio listeners we're spending your money wisely. But that, that's just measuring the audience.

BOB GARFIELD:Are you telling me that you don't worry yourself that program directors and station managers aren't obsessed with audience and pledge results to the detriment of the mission? Don't you worry about that?

JAY KERNIS: I don't think I worry about it.

BOB GARFIELD: That the people you serve are, are taking their eye off of the mission ball?

JAY KERNIS: No. I have nev-- the-- I have never found that to be the case.

BOB GARFIELD: You have taken a lot of heat personally and NPR has over the announcement of these moves which I guess you believe have been somewhat misunderstood.

JAY KERNIS: Mm-hm.

BOB GARFIELD: There is the over-arching fear that the network is going to be taken down the path of pop culture--

JAY KERNIS: Here it comes -- there's that word -- popular culture.

BOB GARFIELD: -- to the-- [LAUGHS] - to the--

JAY KERNIS: Mm-hm.

BOB GARFIELD: -- exclusion or, or at least diminishment of true culture. Rant for me, please.

JAY KERNIS: [SIGHS] It so happens that the smart public radio audience does not only watch PBS. It watches CBS; it watches HBO. The public radio listener -- yeah! -- likes foreign films, a lot. Likes independent films. But the public radio listener goes to big blockbuster movies and rents big blockbuster DVDs. And all I've ever said is that when we cover popular culture, we should cover it with the same journalism filters that we use when we cover a news event, which is to say do the reporting -- ask tough questions -- tell a real story. I have never said more popular culture, more popular culture. But I have said: Don't be afraid to cover popular culture.

BOB GARFIELD:I don't think anybody believes that there's going to be the NPR equivalent of the Solid Gold Dancers but isn't news and information on popular culture vastly available elsewhere from Entertainment Tonight and the E Channel and-- MTV and many other sources?

JAY KERNIS: I've heard 31 years of public radio reporting. When we turn our ears and eyes on this material, we do it in a way that no one else does it.

BOB GARFIELD:Let's just say someone had the ability to sort of scan the entire universe of public radio stations around the country -- what will he or she hear that's noticeably different?

JAY KERNIS: I think we all hope at NPR that listeners hear better stuff. For some stations it'll mean more classical music. We're developing with our public radio stations a classical music stream. I hope on the news magazines, Morning Edition and All Things Considered, you hear better reporting! I mean this is subtle stuff that you're discussing. In some ways I'm amazed that it got the coverage in the print media that it did. I mean I'm doing my job. In, in some ways this is like watching me cut the lawn! I gotta cut the lawn every week! You know? I have to eventually programs!

BOB GARFIELD: But you're tinkering with an institution, and that's why people are very, very sensitive, irritable and maybe terrified.

JAY KERNIS:You know what -- there's no reason the audience should trust me. The audience does not know me, and it's not just me; it's many people at National Public Radio. But I'm the founding producer of Morning Edition. I was at a public radio station when I was 16 years old. I am very, very devoted to this and so is my staff.

BOB GARFIELD:You were quoted in the Washington Post as saying people unfairly say I am changing the course of public radio. If only I can do that. All I can do is ask what can we provide for our stations that they want to air? All right -- if you had the power -- if only you could, to paraphrase you, would you change the course of public radio?

JAY KERNIS: I, I think those of us in public radio programming have to figure out what the next generation wants to listen to. The core public radio listener is 48 years old. That listener is getting older and older. I want public radio to succeed and go on for years and years and years and years, and, and, and that means trying to figure out what younger audiences want.

BOB GARFIELD: Is this the beginning of something radical or is it just tinkering on the margin?

JAY KERNIS:You want to know something? I have a radical idea for a late night show. The only problem is, is that most people aren't listening to the radio late at night. That's my only radical idea.

BOB GARFIELD: No Solid Gold Dancers.

JAY KERNIS: Not unless they're dancing to Cole Porter or Jerome Kern. [MUSIC UP AND UNDER]

BOB GARFIELD: All right [LAUGHS]. Jay, thank you very much.

JAY KERNIS: You're welcome.

BOB GARFIELD: Jay Kernis is senior vice president for programming at NPR.