BROOKE GLADSTONE: FCC Chairman Michael Powell did not want a public hearing on the rules for media ownership, slated for review by the commission this spring, but it looks like he's getting one anyway. As the January 2nd deadline approached for filing public comments on the issue, opposition to further relaxation of the rules heated up across the media landscape -- not just among consumer groups but also entertainment companies, advertisers and the creative community. It left Chairman Powell with a big, fat PR problem this week as he back-pedaled a little from his pro-market stance during a senate committee hearing on Tuesday and defended himself at a forum at Columbia Law School in New York City on Thursday.

MICHAEL POWELL: I read a lot of headlines about what we're doing. I have strained to read one that's accurate yet. But I'll tell you this: there are going to be rules when this proceeding is over. We're debating about which ones and in what form, and how they will be defended or justified. That's the exercise. But there are going to be rules when this is done.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:We decided to hear this week from the creative community -- specifically Jonathan Rintels, executive director for the Center for Creative Community. He says that deregulation can squeeze out diversity -- that when the FCC threw out rules a few years ago that guarantee independent producers access to the networks, originality took a big hit.

JONATHAN RINTELS: Up until about 10 years ago, the networks could not produce the programming that they aired on their schedules; they could only distribute it. But the rule change allowed the networks into the business; they promised that they would always use and need independent producers, but instead what happened was they have increasingly monopolized the production of programming on their schedules to the point where NBC now owns a financial interest in 100 percent of the new series that they are airing in the current season.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: There are some who say that entertainment programming is as creative and as original as it's ever been.

JONATHAN RINTELS:You know I think television in a lot of ways is terrific. But if you look at the shows that are the most creative, push the envelope the most, a lot of those are holdovers from the prior years. You might want to take a look at the deal that NBC recently did to renew Friends which is a, a show that they don't own, which is a holdover from the years when independents could get on the air -- 10 million dollars for a half hour episode. Well why did they feel that they had to do that? The reason is they haven't developed themselves any new hit comedies in the last 5 years to take the place of Friends!

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And that's just about the same time as when the rules changed.

JONATHAN RINTELS: Yes.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:So you're talking about rules that were relaxed years ago that allow the networks to do more of their own production in-house. But how does the relaxation of the media ownership rules affect your concerns?

JONATHAN RINTELS: For example, ABC a few years ago was just a broadcast network. They didn't have a production arm. So they couldn't produce much of their own programming. But then-- Disney bought them. Disney did have a production company, and the corporate edict went out that Disney would produce all of the programming that would run on the ABC network, and it put ABC at the absolute bottom of the ratings!

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And you would say that's directly related to their producing in-house and the con--media consolidation.

JONATHAN RINTELS:Yes, absolutely! For example the dual network rule -- what that rule prevents at the moment is any of the top 4 networks -- ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox -- from combining. So if suddenly have 4 major networks turn into 3 major networks, you have a huge loss of one point of view that covers the entire country and the potential for mischievous re-running of shows on network-owned cable stations or, in the case of CBS, they've re-run shows on UPN.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Right. And the FCC predicted the reverse --that they would diversify their programming.

JONATHAN RINTELS:The FCC said well if Viacom, which owns CBS and UPN, owns these two networks, they'll aim one at one audience and one at another audience. Well, instead they have taken the same show; run it on CBS and then a few days later run it on UPN!

BROOKE GLADSTONE: But don't big networks have the right to save money?

JONATHAN RINTELS:Well of course they have the right to save money, but do they really have the right to buy up all the various networks and turn them into VCRs in case you didn't see it the first time or didn't want to watch it the first time?

BROOKE GLADSTONE:But can you prove -- can any constituency against the relaxation of these rules prove that any real harm has been done to the diversity of voices, to American values, to American culture -- to any of the things that are always invoked in this argument!

JONATHAN RINTELS: Well it's very hard to do an academic study. The FCC has proved that itself by doing its own studies that have really been criticized for being sloppy and not addressing the problem. But what you can point to is simply the walking away by the American public from the broadcast networks! That their share of the television audience has plummeted over the last year, and the reduction in the sales of American programming overseas to foreign markets -- and while we would not say that the sole reason for that is that network-produced programming is less interesting, we think it's one of the reasons.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Okay. Thank you very much.

JONATHAN RINTELS: Thank you!

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Jonathan Rintels is executive director of the Center for the Creative Community.