BROOKE GLADSTONE: Long before the bombs began to fall on Baghdad, the United States had waged a radio war in Iraq, covertly beaming signals from Kuwait, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraqi Kurdistan. Nick Grace is managing editor of Clandestineradio.com, a web site dedicated to tracking clandestine radio stations around the world. He says that until recently Iraqis could tune in to a variety of CIA-backed stations on the radio dial.

NICK GRACE:When the Iraqi listeners turned on their radios, say, one month ago there were approximately 8 radio stations that were covertly pumping in propaganda - into Iraq. Five of these stations have been tied to U.S. intelligence and three have been tied to Iranian intelligence. Three of the stations that were supported covertly by the U.S. include a station called Al-Mustaqbal, called The Future, Radio of the Two Rivers as well as a station called Radio Tikrit. These three radio stations broadcast from a covert transmitter in Kuwait and had ties with an Iraqi exile group in London called the Iraqi National Accord. The message of these three stations were more or less directed towards the enlisted soldiers in the Iraqi armed forces, high level officers in the Republican Guard, as well as members of the Baath Party in Baghdad essentially encouraging them to defect, encouraging them to stand down orders, encouraging them to undermine the regime in Baghdad. Al-Mustaqbal broadcast programming which was very comic. They were known for its impersonators of Saddam Hussein. Radio of the Two Rivers broadcast a more upbeat program -lots of very-- high energy Middle Eastern popular music as well as almost New York FM-style radio promos. Radio Tikrit however, was much more timid during the beginning of its life cycle; in fact when it first went on the air it was very much anti-U.S.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Even though it was being supported by U.S. intelligence? That's confusing!

NICK GRACE:It was a hook. The target of its listeners were of course the loyalists of the Baath Party, especially those from Tikrit. Within a week of its first being heard and noted by us and, as well as other monitoring organizations, the message shifted to a very much pro-Baath Party yet pro-democracy and anti-Saddam Hussein.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:So you have these pro-western stations and they were urging people in the Iraqi military to, to give up, to surrender, to desert and so forth, and this is before there was Gulf War II how effective was this message?

NICK GRACE:We can see an effect of these stations, though it's anecdotal. There were a number of stories by embedded journalists who noted that many of the defectors and, and the surrenders of the Iraqi troops were in accordance, if you will with what the coalition had been telling them to do!-- to mobilize their tanks in such a way and such a pattern so that the coalition would know that those tanks were not hostile. Same thing with planes and so forth. So-- [BOTH SPEAK AT ONCE]

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And this was heard on their radio stations.

NICK GRACE: The radio stations were telling their listeners - those enlisted troops as well as officers - how to surrender properly.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And how has the message changed now that the war is pretty much over?

NICK GRACE:Many of these stations whose modus operandi was to broadcast during the war are now off the air, of course, and those stations that are still on the air have re-branded themselves, if you will. Radio Tikrit has now become Radio Sumer; it's not longer broadcasting specifically for one segment of the population but in fact the entire country. Sumer, of course, being the historic name of, of Iraq, and suggesting that the agenda or the interest of the station is to promote unity in Iraq! Radio Tikrit is also borrowing some of the content-- some of the comedians and the personnel from Al-Mustaqbal to produce their own brand of comedy, the most famous being the rap song which was broadcast the day after Baghdad fell.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:Your web site was recommended to us by a couple of sources we find very reliable, but how do you know what you know? How do you know who's backing whom?

NICK GRACE:Everyone involved with the web site have been monitoring radio for 15, 20 years each. We're veterans in the radio-monitoring field. Our knowledge of the transmitter in Kuwait -something that we broke - came from sources within the Iraqi opposition. Radio transmitters leave -- they have a footprint; they have a particular sound, and when the United States has sponsored covert radio st-- broadcasts in the past, they have essentially used the same transmitters. So when we know, for example, that a station in the past has broadcast from, say, a transmitter in Kuwait, that station is no longer on the air and a new station comes on -this is the same frequency, the same schedule, the same signal quality -- everything lines up - all the ducks are in the row - it's - it has to be from that transmitter.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:And finally what do your sources tell you about the future of clandestine radio in Iraq? do you think that it's going to become less clandestine?

NICK GRACE:Absolutely. In fact both the Iraqi National Congress and the Iraqi National Accord are refusing support from the United States government to broadcast clandestinely from within Iraq. It's clear that Iraq as a nation is tired of this covert propaganda and wants to start fresh and start with legal broadcasting, and they want to be able to control their media outlets much more than they would be able to-- under the CIA.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Well thank you very much!

NICK GRACE: Oh, thank you, Brooke! It's been a pleasure.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Nick Grace is managing editor of Clandestineradio.com.