The Price of Stability
Transcript
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
This is On the Media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.
BOB GARFIELD:
And I'm Bob Garfield. In this next interview, which Brooke recorded last June in Moscow, we hear the candid views of a Russian editor who is sick and tired of Western pieties about a free press.
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
When you're representing an American radio program called On the Media and you say you want to talk about free speech, pro-Kremlin media heavyweights will cross the street to avoid you, aside from Alexander Prokhanov, who, in the last segment, laid out an extreme position, even by Russian standards today.
We couldn't find anyone of importance, by which I mean a player, willing to sit down with us and explain the Kremlin's position, expect one, Vladimir Mamontov, editor-in-chief of one of the nation's most important, most famous, most emblematic newspapers, Izvestia.
Izvestia started out as a revolutionary paper in 1917 but soon became an organ of the government. It was Stalinist under Stalin and then it grew more liberal during the thaw of Nikita Khrushchev. In the late '80s and into the '90s it was in the forefront of Perestroika, and in 2005 it was purchased, as was so much of Russian media, by the state-owned oil company, Gazprom. Its liberal editor was sent packing, to be replaced by former Komsomolskaya Pravda Deputy Editor Vladimir Mamontov.
Liberals have bemoaned what they see as the paper's devolution into a Kremlin mouthpiece. Mamontov, obviously, sees it differently.
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
Nowadays as editor-in-chief of Izvestia, I want to see it as a definitely conservative, definitely pro-government newspaper, and there is no desire on my part to conceal that.
It seems to me that it is within the boundaries of the freedom of speech to follow this line. And I think those people who inform you that there is something wrong with Izvestia are, in fact, exactly the people who want to monopolize the very notion of freedom of speech and who do not want to tolerate any opinion different from their own.
So they are eager to label other heterodox newspapers as “yellow press” or “pro-Putin” or “KGB-dependent publications.” These shallow allegations, I hear them every day.
[RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
My question is how you make your decisions, what red lines you have at your paper. In other words, we know what's happened to television under Gazprom. Gazprom is becoming a media empire, which is very closely associated with Putin. If there isn't any explicit censorship, the feeling is that there is probably some self-censorship.
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
The thing is that I have my own independent political views formed throughout my life, and in order to live by them, express them or use them as the guidelines in my editorial policy, I do not need either Gazprom or Putin.
It has been my understanding for a long period of time that Russia should be strong, should use its advantages, and so on.
[RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
But I wonder, as a journalist, what do you think of Putin's policies regarding a free press in Russia?
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
I think that during the Yeltsin years the press was handled mostly by oligarchs like Berezovsky and Gusinsky, and they managed Russian media outlets in the way they thought would suit them. It was not until Putin became the president that this way of thinking was interrupted.
Instead, there have been created official TV networks, which, as is practiced in many countries in the world, hold a very well-balanced, cautious and absolutely pro-government position. There are lots of precedents like this all over the world. The difference is only in the matter of disguise, and our networks might be too straightforward, not sophisticated enough.
At the same time, you can't underestimate the role of these TV stations in stabilizing situation in society. Undoubtedly, they do that using a range of methods, like filtering of information, entertainment programming. All in all, it would be really strange to deny that, to a certain extent, our TV networks function in propaganda mode.
At the same time, I should tell you that having traveled a lot through many countries, I do not remember a single case when the major TV station would be in opposition to the government.
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
Is it because you feel Russia is so fragile that it can't handle opposition on mainstream television?
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
As soon as we establish a secure and predictable multi or bipartisan system and after we have lived with it for several years, I will totally agree with you and would root for all kinds of opposition. I would not be concerned with the fragility of Russia anymore.
You have asked me if I consider the economical, political or any other part of Russian life to be unstable. I'd say I do not understand how I can live without this fear of instability, if I have lived a major part of my life being a Communist, then found myself in the midst of Perestroika, then lived through tumultuous 1990s.
[RUSSIAN]
How can I be sure that the situation in Russia will be stable from now on, without me personally contributing to the stabilization?
I saw how easily things break apart and replace one another. Those irreversible changes happen not always based on the needs or agreement of the majority, not at all. There were lots of outside factors, political forces. I saw all this happen with my own eyes, saw how political methods worked. I still witness similar scenarios played out.
[RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
Do you think, given this point in Russia's history, it's all right for the president or the government to control the principal means by which people get information in this country - television?
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
Oh, please! Can you show me any country where the sources of mass information are not controlled? Same things happen all over the world. The political force in power manages the way information is distributed.
I do not want to expose my colleagues from western media who are quite frank with me in describing how it all works in States - who is coming from where, how the problems are taken care of, how the interaction with the government is structured.
The only way out of this situation is to have different journalists, publications and media outlets coming from the opposing political parties. So just give us the time and we'll create those opposing forces, normal political parties. You do not have those extremists that we do, apart from the so-called political party of anti-globalists that break the windows. We have our freaks. You have yours.
I am very sure that all these mechanisms will emerge and develop in Russia. And, by the way, it'll happen much faster with your assistance. It would be, in fact, nice to receive some encouragement, instead of these streams of criticism that serve as a better evidence of western journalists' ignorance and inability to comprehend the situation in Russia than of anything else.
[MAMONTOV SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
But do you sympathize at all with the concern that this control of Russian television smacks of the past, of the Cold War? You say that you are an ex-Communist. [LAUGHS] But, that said –
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
Mm-hmm [AFFIRMATIVE]. [LAUGHS]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
- would you — you wouldn't want to go back to that time. Do you see why people might be worried about that?
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
I can assure you that not a single sensible individual in Russia wants to get back to USSR. I do not see any serious signs of totalitarian regime here. Totalitarianism is very serious and has nothing to do with what's happening.
Our citizens are free to go wherever they want, film what they want, stage the plays on any subject they want. Our cinemas show the motion pictures all over the world. Anything can get published. Internet is not banned or blocked.
You ask me if I want to go back. Well, being a person with keen interests for western music, western literature, I do not want to go back. Instead, I want to integrate my new interests with my love for Russian literature and many facets of Soviet life, as well.
By the way, there are absolutely anti-Putin plays that are on in the theaters all over the country.
[RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
Only, not on TV.
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
That's separate.
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
But you can't integrate culture without politics. Politics can never be left aside.
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
Just pay attention to this curious phenomenon for a moment. Among all the imaginable freedoms our people have - mobility, right to work and all the freedoms that I talked about a couple of minutes before - you somehow concentrate only on those freedoms that have their shortcomings, that are in some ways limited.
Why do you not blame EU for not giving Russian citizens open date visas? This way, our people could travel more and, consequently, learn from the western democratic experience. Let's focus on this problem as well.
I just see that you have a tendency to select a certain point and devote all of your attention to it. And I can detect a certain bias in this approach.
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
So true, but our program is called “On the Media.”
[LAUGHTER]
However, one could easily extrapolate that from freedom of speech, freedom of the press emerges all freedoms, ultimately, freedom of thought.
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
I am sometimes smitten by your western self-confidence. You are somehow sure that everything you say, all the values you propagate, be they true or false, are ultimately good and indispensable for everybody.
But, my dear friends, it's so much not right. I'll reiterate. It's not true. There are different civilizations who created their own values and Russia is one of them. You can't point to us which freedom is more important and to which extent it has to be presented. We might as well figure it out ourselves. We do not ever try to dictate to you the rules of the game. This problem is actually at the root of everything else.
Gentlemen, just let us have our own values. Do not put this mercy on us by force, as you do in Iraq and Serbia. Whenever the due progress is not achieved, you use your military force — bombs, air force. Why don't you start with yourself and deal with your own Bush?
Everybody says Russian journalists are in danger, but look at what's happened in Iraq. How many journalists and people were killed there? Thousands of people have been murdered.
Why were those people killed? What did they suffer for? In fact, they suffered for democratization, according to the rules you consider to be superior and true. Fantastic, fantastic!
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
Vladimir Mamontov is the editor of Izvestia.
This is On the Media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.
BOB GARFIELD:
And I'm Bob Garfield. In this next interview, which Brooke recorded last June in Moscow, we hear the candid views of a Russian editor who is sick and tired of Western pieties about a free press.
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
When you're representing an American radio program called On the Media and you say you want to talk about free speech, pro-Kremlin media heavyweights will cross the street to avoid you, aside from Alexander Prokhanov, who, in the last segment, laid out an extreme position, even by Russian standards today.
We couldn't find anyone of importance, by which I mean a player, willing to sit down with us and explain the Kremlin's position, expect one, Vladimir Mamontov, editor-in-chief of one of the nation's most important, most famous, most emblematic newspapers, Izvestia.
Izvestia started out as a revolutionary paper in 1917 but soon became an organ of the government. It was Stalinist under Stalin and then it grew more liberal during the thaw of Nikita Khrushchev. In the late '80s and into the '90s it was in the forefront of Perestroika, and in 2005 it was purchased, as was so much of Russian media, by the state-owned oil company, Gazprom. Its liberal editor was sent packing, to be replaced by former Komsomolskaya Pravda Deputy Editor Vladimir Mamontov.
Liberals have bemoaned what they see as the paper's devolution into a Kremlin mouthpiece. Mamontov, obviously, sees it differently.
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
Nowadays as editor-in-chief of Izvestia, I want to see it as a definitely conservative, definitely pro-government newspaper, and there is no desire on my part to conceal that.
It seems to me that it is within the boundaries of the freedom of speech to follow this line. And I think those people who inform you that there is something wrong with Izvestia are, in fact, exactly the people who want to monopolize the very notion of freedom of speech and who do not want to tolerate any opinion different from their own.
So they are eager to label other heterodox newspapers as “yellow press” or “pro-Putin” or “KGB-dependent publications.” These shallow allegations, I hear them every day.
[RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
My question is how you make your decisions, what red lines you have at your paper. In other words, we know what's happened to television under Gazprom. Gazprom is becoming a media empire, which is very closely associated with Putin. If there isn't any explicit censorship, the feeling is that there is probably some self-censorship.
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
The thing is that I have my own independent political views formed throughout my life, and in order to live by them, express them or use them as the guidelines in my editorial policy, I do not need either Gazprom or Putin.
It has been my understanding for a long period of time that Russia should be strong, should use its advantages, and so on.
[RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
But I wonder, as a journalist, what do you think of Putin's policies regarding a free press in Russia?
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
I think that during the Yeltsin years the press was handled mostly by oligarchs like Berezovsky and Gusinsky, and they managed Russian media outlets in the way they thought would suit them. It was not until Putin became the president that this way of thinking was interrupted.
Instead, there have been created official TV networks, which, as is practiced in many countries in the world, hold a very well-balanced, cautious and absolutely pro-government position. There are lots of precedents like this all over the world. The difference is only in the matter of disguise, and our networks might be too straightforward, not sophisticated enough.
At the same time, you can't underestimate the role of these TV stations in stabilizing situation in society. Undoubtedly, they do that using a range of methods, like filtering of information, entertainment programming. All in all, it would be really strange to deny that, to a certain extent, our TV networks function in propaganda mode.
At the same time, I should tell you that having traveled a lot through many countries, I do not remember a single case when the major TV station would be in opposition to the government.
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
Is it because you feel Russia is so fragile that it can't handle opposition on mainstream television?
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
As soon as we establish a secure and predictable multi or bipartisan system and after we have lived with it for several years, I will totally agree with you and would root for all kinds of opposition. I would not be concerned with the fragility of Russia anymore.
You have asked me if I consider the economical, political or any other part of Russian life to be unstable. I'd say I do not understand how I can live without this fear of instability, if I have lived a major part of my life being a Communist, then found myself in the midst of Perestroika, then lived through tumultuous 1990s.
[RUSSIAN]
How can I be sure that the situation in Russia will be stable from now on, without me personally contributing to the stabilization?
I saw how easily things break apart and replace one another. Those irreversible changes happen not always based on the needs or agreement of the majority, not at all. There were lots of outside factors, political forces. I saw all this happen with my own eyes, saw how political methods worked. I still witness similar scenarios played out.
[RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
Do you think, given this point in Russia's history, it's all right for the president or the government to control the principal means by which people get information in this country - television?
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
Oh, please! Can you show me any country where the sources of mass information are not controlled? Same things happen all over the world. The political force in power manages the way information is distributed.
I do not want to expose my colleagues from western media who are quite frank with me in describing how it all works in States - who is coming from where, how the problems are taken care of, how the interaction with the government is structured.
The only way out of this situation is to have different journalists, publications and media outlets coming from the opposing political parties. So just give us the time and we'll create those opposing forces, normal political parties. You do not have those extremists that we do, apart from the so-called political party of anti-globalists that break the windows. We have our freaks. You have yours.
I am very sure that all these mechanisms will emerge and develop in Russia. And, by the way, it'll happen much faster with your assistance. It would be, in fact, nice to receive some encouragement, instead of these streams of criticism that serve as a better evidence of western journalists' ignorance and inability to comprehend the situation in Russia than of anything else.
[MAMONTOV SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
But do you sympathize at all with the concern that this control of Russian television smacks of the past, of the Cold War? You say that you are an ex-Communist. [LAUGHS] But, that said –
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
Mm-hmm [AFFIRMATIVE]. [LAUGHS]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
- would you — you wouldn't want to go back to that time. Do you see why people might be worried about that?
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
I can assure you that not a single sensible individual in Russia wants to get back to USSR. I do not see any serious signs of totalitarian regime here. Totalitarianism is very serious and has nothing to do with what's happening.
Our citizens are free to go wherever they want, film what they want, stage the plays on any subject they want. Our cinemas show the motion pictures all over the world. Anything can get published. Internet is not banned or blocked.
You ask me if I want to go back. Well, being a person with keen interests for western music, western literature, I do not want to go back. Instead, I want to integrate my new interests with my love for Russian literature and many facets of Soviet life, as well.
By the way, there are absolutely anti-Putin plays that are on in the theaters all over the country.
[RUSSIAN]
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
Only, not on TV.
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
That's separate.
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
But you can't integrate culture without politics. Politics can never be left aside.
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
Just pay attention to this curious phenomenon for a moment. Among all the imaginable freedoms our people have - mobility, right to work and all the freedoms that I talked about a couple of minutes before - you somehow concentrate only on those freedoms that have their shortcomings, that are in some ways limited.
Why do you not blame EU for not giving Russian citizens open date visas? This way, our people could travel more and, consequently, learn from the western democratic experience. Let's focus on this problem as well.
I just see that you have a tendency to select a certain point and devote all of your attention to it. And I can detect a certain bias in this approach.
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
So true, but our program is called “On the Media.”
[LAUGHTER]
However, one could easily extrapolate that from freedom of speech, freedom of the press emerges all freedoms, ultimately, freedom of thought.
[RUSSIAN]
INTERPRETER FOR VLADIMIR MAMONTOV:
I am sometimes smitten by your western self-confidence. You are somehow sure that everything you say, all the values you propagate, be they true or false, are ultimately good and indispensable for everybody.
But, my dear friends, it's so much not right. I'll reiterate. It's not true. There are different civilizations who created their own values and Russia is one of them. You can't point to us which freedom is more important and to which extent it has to be presented. We might as well figure it out ourselves. We do not ever try to dictate to you the rules of the game. This problem is actually at the root of everything else.
Gentlemen, just let us have our own values. Do not put this mercy on us by force, as you do in Iraq and Serbia. Whenever the due progress is not achieved, you use your military force — bombs, air force. Why don't you start with yourself and deal with your own Bush?
Everybody says Russian journalists are in danger, but look at what's happened in Iraq. How many journalists and people were killed there? Thousands of people have been murdered.
Why were those people killed? What did they suffer for? In fact, they suffered for democratization, according to the rules you consider to be superior and true. Fantastic, fantastic!
BROOKE GLADSTONE:
Vladimir Mamontov is the editor of Izvestia.
Produced by WNYC Studios