Coming Out, Coming Forward
KATHY: A content warning before we start: This week’s episode discusses childhood sexual assault and suicide.
TOBIN: So Kathy.
KATHY: Yes Tobin.
TOBIN: One floor up from where Nancy sits at WNYC there’s this incredible team called Radio Rookies.
KATHY: Yes, I love them. It’s this small team of journalists here at the station who help young people from all over New York report and produce their own radio stories.
LUKE: Hello? I’m in a program called Radio Rookies and I’m interviewing people about who was their first crush.
TOBIN: This is Luke. He’s been working with Rookies for about four years now, since he was 15. He started off just interviewing his friends and classmates about totally normal teenager stuff.
INTERVIEWEE: Um, he was ugly and short and I don’t like him [LAUGHS],
LUKE: Then why’d you have a crush on him?
INTERVIEWEE: Why? Because I didn’t have a brain in seventh grade.
KATHY: But he pretty quickly moved from reporting on middle school crushes to documenting something much more personal: a story about his abusive father. And later, about his own process of coming out as trans.
TOBIN: Luke is incredibly candid about his experience, with the justice system, with his parents, and with how he’s feeling every step of the way.
KATHY: We’re going to bring you his story today, he recorded it a year ago. And just a heads-up, we’ve changed the names of some people in the story—including Luke’s name—and we’ve bleeped the names of others, in order to protect their privacy.
TOBIN: So here now is Luke’s story of growing up, coming out, and finding his voice.
VOX: From WNYC Studios, this is Nancy!
VOX: With your hosts, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu.
LUKE: Growing up, I never wanted to be at home, so I always found reasons to leave.
[SOUNDS OF ROBOTICS]
LUKE: In high school I spent my time at robotics, student government, National Honor Society, and taking college courses.
[SOUNDS OF FIGHTING AT HOME]
LUKE: At home everyone was always arguing. My family has never really been there for me. So I don’t talk to them.
[SOUNDS CUT OFF ABRUPTLY]
LUKE: Instead I talk to my friends but I don’t tell anyone everything. I pick and choose parts of my life to tell different friends.
[SOUNDS OF FRIENDS TALKING]
LUKE: Like Lola. I told her that my father had been sexually abusing me since I was in kindergarten. Part of the reason I told her is because I knew that she had family members try to touch her too…but she never told any adults.
LUKE: Why don’t you tell anyone?
LOLA: First, if my mother finds out, my cousin is dead. And it’s embarrassing, too, you know like I don’t want people to know what’s been going on, some incesty stuff in my family, you know. ‘Cause aside from my cousin, my mother’s boyfriend also, he also tried to hit on me and stuff too. I haven’t told my mom about that either. Sometimes it’s not worth telling people stuff that’s only gonna bring more problems.
LUKE: Do you blame anyone for it?
LOLA: No. I don’t blame anybody, you know. I mean, I could probably blame myself for my stepfather thing, for being too friendly with him. I probably would have led him the wrong way. But at the same time, you’re a grown man, why are you finding interest in a little girl? Like, what is wrong with you? I guess I blame myself a little bit for being weak minded and not being able to tell him no or not being able to tell my mom the first time that it happened. But at the same time I cared so much about my mom’s feelings, to hurt her like that? You know?
LUKE: I know. For a long time I didn’t tell my mom either, because I knew she wasn’t going to react well. She’s an alcoholic and whenever she’s stressed out, she starts drinking. She picked up bad habits from my father before they split up when I was 9-years-old. Telling people wasn’t going to change what my father did to me, so I kept it to myself. I thought I could live without anyone knowing.
LUKE: On my 15th birthday the truth just slipped out. My godparents, their two kids, my aunt, cousins, mom, and sisters were all in the living room. There was Mexican music playing…there’s always Mexican music playing at my house. My family sang to me, then they shoved my face in the cake. That’s a Mexican tradition. And right after that, that’s when I decided to finally tell them that my father used to touch me. I was apologizing and crying for not saying anything sooner. They told me it was okay. And they tried to calm me down and put me to sleep.
[MEXICAN MUSIC ENDS]
LUKE: This wasn’t the first time my mom had heard this accusation. My older sister had told her the same thing when she was three years old, but my mom didn’t take it seriously. I asked my mom...
LUKE: [SPANISH] Do you wish that I hadn’t told you about what my father did to me?
MOM: [SPANISH] I would have liked for you to tell me from the beginning.
LUKE: [SPANISH] Why?
MOM: [SPANISH] Because I could have made precautions, or turned him into the police, and maybe the abuse wouldn’t have continued. Were you scared to tell me?
LUKE: [SPANISH] It’s not that I was scared, I was scared of my father, but I grew up like that and I didn’t know it was bad. I mean it happened a lot of times and Dad was hitting you. I didn’t think you would be able to do anything anyway.
LUKE: Even though I said I wasn’t, I actually was scared of what her reaction might be.
MOM: [SPANISH] I admit that I made a lot of mistakes with you guys. And sometimes I feel that I failed as a mother. And I want you to forgive me. That I couldn’t protect you from the person who was supposed to protect you.
LUKE: [SPANISH] Sorry for what? I don’t blame you for anything, you didn’t do anything wrong. That was my father.
LUKE: A few months after my birthday, child protection came to my house because my father was trying to get custody of my baby sister. The social worker was asking me questions to see if he was a fit father. I said that he drank when we were on visits, he brought prostitutes to his house, he used to beat my mother, and…he sexually abused me. The social worker called the police and that’s when this whole case started and things got even worse in my family.
[SOUNDS OF FAMILY FIGHTING]
LUKE: My siblings tried to pressure me to drop the case. My brother said it was my fault. He would get violent—busting into my room and hitting me. And my sisters were mad because our father was in Rikers.
[SOUNDS OF FAMILY FIGHTING]
LUKE: I began feeling unsafe in my own home. I don’t want to be here anymore. I spoke to an attorney about trying to live somewhere else. So she set up a family court hearing. I told my friend Lola about it and she asked if I wanted her to come with me.
LUKE: Ok, so hi.
LUKE: I just called my attorney and she said court is gonna be tomorrow at 11.
LOLA: Alright but can we dress up?
LUKE: [LAUGH] Why?
LOLA: Cause I wanna wear my outfit! We’re going to court. It’s the perfect time to wear the outfit.
LUKE: You can dress up if you want to.
LOLA: Do you have nice shoes?
LUKE: No, I only have sneakers.
LOLA: Ok, I can bring you some fancy type shoes.
LUKE: Are they girl shoes?
LOLA: Remember the heels I was wearing?
LUKE: I’m not wearing heels!
LOLA: It’s just for the court and then you can put your sneakers on.
LOLA: Dress nice so that I can wear my nice outfit!
LUKE: The next day Lola and I walked to the courthouse from school.
LOLA: You gotta keep looking in the hallway when you’re in the courtroom cause I’m gonna be making faces at you.
LUKE: That court date was insignificant, the one I’m stressing about is where I have to testify against my father.
[COURTHOUSE SOUNDS FADES OUT]
LUKE: A lot of the time I regretted coming forward. I got nothing out of it. I’ve been waiting on this case since i was 15 and I’m almost 18 now. They get my hopes up saying the trial is going to happen soon, but then it keeps being put off, again and again. Before I came forward, I never really had to think about him touching me. But because of this case I have to think about it and talk about it. And every time I bring it up it’s like it's happening again.
ALLI: So my name is Alli Drieves and I’m the Clinical Supervisor at STEPS to End Family Violence. We specialize in working with teens who have been affected by abuse.
LUKE: Um, I have to testify in front of my father…
LUKE: So how do you think it would it affect me?
ALLI: Is there anything you are hoping will feel different once you have gone there and have faced him?
LUKE: Um, I don’t know. I’m hoping for an apology but I think I’m just going to be satisfied with him, you know, getting what he deserves.
ALLI: What would feel different if you did get an apology?
LUKE: I don’t know, I just want one. [LAUGHS] ‘Cause there was this one time where my sister, she had went through the same thing but in her case, she told my mom when she was three years old but my mom did not believe her. So how would you be able to trust a little kid saying something that big to a person?
ALLI: I would say that kids don’t make things like that up and we should just always believe children. And so if a child discloses to you that they’ve been harmed by anyone in any way, you want to fully believe them, every time.
LUKE: Yeah, I think my mom regrets not believing her and to this day my sister blames my mom for all of it. So...
ALLI: I think that’s completely understandable because all children should be protected and I think that everyone is in a difficult situation in this scenario. I think often children do try to come forward but anyone who receives the message that this might be negatively affecting someone else, I think children...people don’t understand how protective children can be.
LUKE: When my older sister was in 7th grade our father was trying to touch her while she was doing dishes. She screamed at him to stop. She couldn’t take it anymore. This time, my mom believed her. Then my mom asked me if he touched me and I immediately said no. If you saw the way she freaked out, you wouldn’t have told her either. Back when my sister came forward, if I would have said something, I could have helped her case. At the time we were really close, and she needed the support, but I didn’t want to do that. I was like, “If you want dad in jail, go ahead.” Now I get it. Eventually, my sister decided she didn’t wanna testify and the case was dropped.
LUKE: So I just came out when I was 15, so that was last school year because my dad was trying to get custody of my little sister. I wasn’t about to let him do that, so I was like, um, “OK, I’m ready.”
ALLI: So you really started telling your story to protect your sister. I guess I’m starting to see a theme of you protecting people maybe around you.
LUKE: Yeah. The only reason I was sexually abused was because he was trying to do it to my little sister, so during that, [VOICE SHIVERING] sorry...
ALLI: It’s ok.
LUKE: [STARTING TO CRY] Ok, so during the process…
ALLI: May I ask what’s coming up for you now?
LUKE: Well I don’t really like talking about it most of the time, so yeah.
ALLI: What is it feeling like to talk about it?
LUKE: I guess a lot of shame I guess, for not saying anything sooner, so I guess that. [PAUSE] Ok, so the only reason I was sexually abused is because I had seen that he was doing that to my older sister whenever he’d get alone with her. So after a while he tried doing it to my little sister so I’d get in the way. So he’d just end up doing it to me.
ALLI: So you’ve taken on a lot to try to protect the people that you love.
LUKE: Yeah. [CRYING]
ALLI: You’ve gotten through a lot, you’ve survived a lot, how do you feel like you’ve been able to get through it?
LUKE: I’ve been able to get through it by not saying anything, basically. So...if I don’t have to talk about it, I’m fine. Just you know, that’s basically it.
ALLI: Sometimes not talking about it can be what we need to do to survive at the time and then as we move further and further away from what happened and from the abuse itself, not talking about it can start to not work for us as well as it used to.
LUKE: After I talked to her I just wanted to go home and sleep. I don’t like crying. I don’t see myself as a victim or a survivor. I see it as something that happened to me and I just need to get over it. I feel like there’s no need for me to continue to talk about what happened so long ago unless it’s to testify. But I’m doing this story so people know that this actually happens to kids. I used to cry when it would come up, but now it’s more of a conversation I can hold, like if we’re talking about math.
LUKE: Hello? Hello? I’m starting my senior year of high school, finally, I just hopefully the court case ends so I can have a whole year of just focusing on what’s important rather than this court case.
LUKE: I recorded this in September of 2015. At that point, I’d already been waiting a year and a half for my dad to go to trial.
LUKE: There’s also robotics, college applications, I have to still study for my SATs...but senior year will be fun hopefully.
LUKE: Almost every month since the case started there’s been a court date, and every time they decide to put the trial off. At the end of my senior year, there was still no one telling me why my case was taking so long. I wanted to ask someone who understands the legal system.
LUKE: Could you introduce yourself and tell me about your career?
MARJORIE: Sure. My name is Marjorie Fisher. I was a prosecutor in New York City for 30 years. I tried a lot of cases and I interviewed lots and lots of kids in my career where the case involved either child sexual abuse or physical abuse.
LUKE: She said that since this happened in Brooklyn, there are a lot of cases. It’s one of the busiest court systems in the country and there are just a few judges that actually do the trials. So waiting for years for cases to go to trial is normal.
MARJORIE: I just want to know how you’re doing with all of this, like does it get in the way of school work are you thinking about it a lot?
LUKE: Yes. I’m usually late for school, I oversleep a lot.
MARJORIE: Are you worried about the trial?
LUKE: Sort of, I mean they said we might lose the case only because it’s only me testifying
MARJORIE: Yeah, but once you get up there and start telling, yes, you may lose. That’s always a risk. There could be a boatload full of evidence, and you could still lose but the important thing is that you had the courage to get up and do this.
LUKE: No, the important thing is winning. Me coming forward created even more tension in my house and in my life. And if I lose, it will also have been a waste of my time.
[BAPTISM MUSIC FROM HOME VIDEO]
LUKE: I found this home video of my baptism party from when I was about six years old.
LUKE: I think I’m finally getting baptized…
LUKE: I had on a white dress. Honestly, wearing dresses always made me feel disgusting.
LUKE: I keep looking back at my dad…
LUKE: When my father would abuse me, he’d tell me to go change into feminine clothing.
LUKE: Woah. I forgot how dirty my father’s hands used to me. My face looks so serious, like I don’t want to be there.
LUKE: What he did to me made me even more uncomfortable with my body than I already was.
[BAPTISM MUSIC FADES OUT]
LUKE: If I had the body I was meant to be in, this wouldn’t have happened.
NIECE: [SINGING] Tinkle tinkle little star, how I...sing it!
LUKE: [REDACTED] is the first family member I actually came out to. I wanted her to know that I’m not her aunt. We were having a conversation and I was like, “I’m not a girl.” She said, “Yes you are.” I said, “No, I’m a boy.” She sighed and walked away. I told her she had to say Tio [REDACTED].
LUKE: She’s four years old and doesn’t really understand but she at least knows that I’m Tio [REDACTED], that’s all that matters for now.
TOBIN: That was a young man we’re calling Luke. He reported that story over the last couple years. And his life has continued to change. After the break, we’ll find out how he’s doing now.
KATHY: Nancy will be back in a minute.
LUKE: Can I put this on?
TOBIN: It’s up to you, I think. We don’t necessarily need you on earphones, or...
LUKE: OK, I kinda wanna put these on now.
TOBIN: Cool [LAUGHS]. You want to hear what’s happening.
LUKE: No, I kinda want to hear my voice.
TOBIN: Oh cool. Cool cool cool.
KATHY: It’s been 4 years since Luke started reporting his story, and as you can probably hear just from his voice, a lot has changed in that time. Back when he was 15, he was pretty hesitant to talk about his situation...he felt like talking about it just made things worse. But Luke is 19 now, and feeling ready to open up. So Tobin asked him to come into the studio to fill us in on what’s been going on.
TOBIN: When you hear this younger version of yourself what do you wish you could tell that person.
LUKE: Um, honestly I would tell them to just leave my house. I would just tell them that like family isn't so important as people make it out to be.
TOBIN: So you hear yourself trying to stay and work things out.
LUKE: Yeah because like when I was living with my family I didn't really do many of the things I wanted to do because they held me back. I felt like maybe if I were to tell my younger self just to leave and try and focus on making yourself better...
TOBIN: Are you still living at your parents house?
LUKE: No. I left my mom after I graduated, once I turned 17. I couldn't really be there. My mom wasn't very supportive of me medically transitioning and I could not be around her.
TOBIN: How did you go about making the decision to start medically transitioning?
LUKE: Well, I wanted to start T for like a while. And on my senior year I really wanted to start then, so I had asked my mom but she said no. And then, because she didn't allow me to start T...she gave me a choice. She was like, “You can get pregnant right now, have a kid, and then by all means I'll let you take hormones.” And it was only because of her fear of the testosterone leaving me infertile. But I'm just like, "I am 17. I'm not going to have a kid just because you want me to have one." That's unfair for me. So once I graduated, I left and went to AFC. It's Ali Forney Center. They help LGBT homeless youth. And they also really couldn't really help me start T again, like I have to be 18. So even though I had left home I had to wait until I was 18. to make the decision on my own. With, like, obviously doctors consent.
LUKE: So I had to wait until I turned 18.
TOBIN: I guess I'm just curious what did it feel like when your mom offered you this extreme ultimatum?
TOBIN: What did that moment feel like?
LUKE: Honestly if I was younger I would have agreed. If I was like 15 I would've agreed with those conditions because at least I like...15 to 16 I’d be pregnant right? 16 to 18 I'd be able to start on T and from there it have a huge impact on a person of that age. So I would have agreed. But since I was already 17, if I would have gotten pregnant at that point it would have passed my 18 year mark. So it was not convenient for me. I could have just said, I did say no and just waited until I was 18 to make that decision on my own.
TOBIN: Yeah. Yeah. So you fought so hard for this moment of like being able to, you know, be on testosterone. What did it feel like the first time you were able to administer it to yourself?
LUKE: Oh. I guess my first shot on T was really...it's really scary. I just stood there with a needle in my hand for 10 minutes. And this would happen, um, occasionally. Sometimes it still happens. I still get scared because it does hurt. But when I finally did it to myself I just felt relieved, the fact that I didn't need to have anyone help me administer the testosterone. That was something I could do on my own.
TOBIN: Like you were free of your family, you were free of like...
LUKE: Yeah. I didn't need anyone to be who I want to be.
TOBIN: Right. That had to be really cool.
LUKE: Yeah it does. I still like enjoy doing my testosterone shots still. Like I still do them on my own. I do them every week.
TOBIN: So does your mom respect your gender pronouns?
LUKE: Um, it's been maybe like two three years now since I came out to my mom and now she does like she's slowly starting to accept the fact that I am her son like I went to visit her two weeks ago and it was the store that...they've known me since I was 10 but they didn't recognize me at all. So then they asked her like, “How many kids you have again?” Because like genuinely confused. And she finally said four boys and three girls. Which, well.. That kind of made me happy because she
TOBIN: She included you in the count of boys.
LUKE: Yea, she included me in the count of boys and that was very validating. And then she was like yeah this is like this is my son. She slowly started to like..When she’s introducing me, she stops using my dead name she stops referring to me as her daughter. So like... it did take a lot of time for her to process things and even now it's still like an ongoing process. But I definitely see my relationship with my mom getting better.
TOBIN: So you mentioned your father...your dad eventually pleaded guilty to a lesser charge, endangering the welfare of a minor. And that meant that there was no trial, so you didn't get to testify after all. What did it feel like when that happened?
LUKE: Well I didn’t even know the case was like finished until my baby sister told me that my dad was out of jail.
TOBIN: What did that feel like when you heard about it?
LUKE: I definitely feel like a lot of hate towards the system for the fact that like if you would have called me maybe my testify would have done something. Like if I would have been there, maybe he wouldn't have just gotten off with endangering a welfare of his child he would have actually got charged at what he did. But that didn't really happen.
TOBIN: Yeah. Is there a thing that you would have most wanted to say if you had been able to testify?
LUKE: I don't think that I would have been able to say something that they wouldn't have already heard. I think me just being able to say in front of them and I’ll probably get emotional saying that would be proof enough to them that yes it did happen. And yes this man deserves to be charged with what he had did. And like I wasn't the only person he's done this to. So like this is an ongoing problem. And honestly I don't see him getting better. He doesn't deserve to be out with society. He...It is definitely not safe for people to be around him.
TOBIN: Do you worry about encountering him when you’re just like out and about?
LUKE: I do have a restraining order. A few months ago I live in the area where I grew up and I guess that's the area where he chose back to live because...I had to go to the bank to open up a saving account and I saw him there and that was like a few months ago so that was like two, three years of me and him not having seen each other. But I feel like he didn't recognize me either.
LUKE: But I don’t want him to know that I am trans, to be honest. I don’t want you to know that you have a son. Like, I don’t want you in my life. You don’t have a son. I am nothing to you at all.
TOBIN: Who who have been the people who have seen you the most clearly and sort of been with you in everything that's happened in the last couple of years?
LUKE: Honestly, my wife. She was there for like a huge chunk of it. I went to AFC, I didn't meet her maybe like a few months after I left home. And you know we started this relationship and she was always there with me so I always had someone. So she was like a huge emotional support for me.
TOBIN: Um, what was your wife's name.
LUKE: My wife's name was Jayne. She went by a bunch of names though. She like...she also experimented with Karen. I was calling her Rose at one point. But Jayne was definitely something like that was her official legal name when she changed it.
TOBIN: How did y'all meet?
LUKE: Uh, we met through a trans group. We were just sitting around and like I don't really like to talk to many people at first, so usually I chill in the groups and I feel out people. And she seem pretty like chill. She like the way she presents herself and the way she spoke she definitely was someone with a certain amount of intellect that I wanted to like talk to. So that's how I started talking to her. Things ended up getting serious and like she ended up being my girlfriend.
JAYNE: [SINGING] We are the Crystal Gems. We’ll always save the day. And if you think we can’t. We’ll always find a way… Why the people of this world believe in
LUKE: Steven universe is trash.
JAYNE: You’re trash, son!
LUKE: Then why are you dating me?
JAYNE: You’re not trash. [KISS] Is there anything else you want to say?
LUKE: I love you.
JAYNE: I love you.
LUKE: When we first got together, she was street homeless and I was living inside one of the shelters, one of the emergency shelters provided by AFC.
TOBIN: Had she been in one of the shelters before?
LUKE: She was staying at the drop-in for some time because they have overnight beds there but those who are younger get prioritized more than those who are overage.
TOBIN: Well and that was something that happened while you were together, right? She sort of aged out of the services.
LUKE: So she aged out when she turned 25. That was March 5th.
TOBIN: what does it mean to age out? Like what do you sort of lose access to?
LUKE: You lose access to anything AFC has provided to you. So, they provide metrocards, they provide food, clothing, they do help you get a job if you’re looking for it. They help you with education, they have grants and stuff. And they just have a whole bunch of emergency shelters and actual programs to help your living situation.
OFFICIANT: We’re gathered here today to witness exchanging of marriage vows. Is there anyone present today who knows of any reason why this couple should not be married? Let them speak now or forever hold your peace…
TOBIN: When did you decide to get married?
LUKE: So we were street homeless for a while and maybe we were rushing into things, but I did love her and you know...with our financial situation we weren't working but both of us had money saved up. So both of us were like you know feeding each other, giving whatever we really needed. And I had the chance to be housed, but I didn't like the idea of when a trans woman being outside in the street alone especially with you know trans people do get targeted, especially trans women, especially visible trans women, so I chose to be street homeless with her. So there's like different steps you know to get out of the situation. And one of them we couldn't obviously afford to pay rent but there are housing opportunities but these housing opportunities are restricted to you have to be blood related or you have to have like be married or domestic partnership. But the more like time I spent with her the more I was like why don't we just get married. So because of us being married we were able to no longer be in the street which was like a huge thing for both of us.
TOBIN: Right. Umm...Jayne has passed away.
TOBIN: If you're comfortable talking about it. How did how did you find out that she had died?
LUKE: So as a trans person, you know, you have gender dysphoria and at a certain sense, some trans people do experience depression because of it. So her dysphoria caused her severe amounts of depression and her parents didn't accept her. None of her family did. So she always had...she definitely self harmed in the past. She started around the age of eight. So it wasn't something new, like when I started dating, it was something I was already aware of. So umm...she did end up committing suicide because you know at that moment she was alone. All she had was me, so...she just gave up.
TOBIN: First I want to say I am so sorry this happened. I guess I'm just curious like has the feeling about it changed at all in the year since it happened?
LUKE: I do still blame myself a lot for her not being here. And I do sometimes hate myself because I do hate her for leaving me because I was at that point where I was relying on her very heavily like it was a co-dependent relationship. And I did love her. So her leaving when she did leave I was even more depressed than I was before. So I do hate the fact that she caused me so much pain. But I do hate myself for hating her because I know she was also at a point in her life where she felt like she was alone. And I know that I was the only one who was actually there for sher. And like at least I know I have other people I can count on but she she had no one.
TOBIN: Hm. I feel like, as someone who's gone through depression myself, um, and you know you say you have experience with it, too...there's something about it that is so outside of anyone else's control. Do you know what I mean?
LUKE: Yeah I know I've definitely only been trying to get better on my own. It's just it's...it's been really hard. I'm definitely taking the steps to get out of my depression.
TOBIN: Mmm. You've been through so much transformation in the last couple of years. And you know a lot of stuff has happened. What are the moments that you feel most like yourself?
LUKE: Honestly I'm at that point like I was alone like I am. I do have a boyfriend now...since yesterday. So let's make it clear, it's very recent. So aside from that, I spent like an almost more than entire year just alone trying to just be me. Honestly, I can't tell you only because I'm still like I guess at the age where I'm trying to figure out who I am as a person. So it's just it's really hard especially ‘cause like I do have a lot of anxiety being out...I don't really like going outside on my own very often. So it's like I guess I'm still trying to get to that point where I'm like fully know and understand myself.
TOBIN: Yeah, totally. Well, I really appreciate you coming in to talk with me.
LUKE: No problem. I definitely do enjoy, you know, talking to people. Also it definitely helps being talking about stuff, so I do appreciate you having me here.
[CREDITS THEME STARTS]
TOBIN: Special thanks this week to Radio Rookies producer Courtney Stein, who’s worked with Luke for more than four years now. You can learn more about Radio Rookies and the Ali Forney Center, which he mentioned, at nancypodcast.org.
KATHY: And now, credits time! Our producer...
TOBIN: Matt Collette!
KATHY: Production fellow…
TOBIN: Temi Fagbenle!
KATHY: Sound designer...
TOBIN: Jeremy Bloom!
TOBIN: Jenny Lawton!
KATHY: Executive producer...
TOBIN: Paula Szuchman!
KATHY: I’m Kathy Tu.
TOBIN: I’m Tobin Low.
KATHY: And Nancy is a production of WNYC Studios.
[CREDITS THEME ENDS]