TOBIN: So Kathy.

KATHY: Tobin.

TOBIN: Before we get started with today's episode, we have a quick visit from a very special guest.

KATHY: So special!

TOBIN: Radiolab host and producer Molly Webster!

MOLLY: Hello hello hello!

KATHY: Hi Molly.

MOLLY: Hiiii.

TOBIN: Welcome to the studio!

MOLLY: Thank you, I'm doing a shoulder dance

KATHY: Hi Molly

TOBIN: Yes you are, it's a little shimmy!

[LAUGHTER]

KATHY: OK, I have two questions right off the bat.

MOLLY: Yes.

KATHY: Number one: what is this series "Gonads"...

MOLLY: About?

KATHY: Yeah!

MOLLY: It's a series that looks at how humans make more of themselves, but it dives back to sort of these developmental moments that set us on the pathway to be either egg-makers or sperm-makers.

TOBIN: Hmm...

MOLLY: It's like a Magic School Bus-style journey that'll have some biology and some humans and some fish.

KATHY: Fish?

MOLLY: Which are also biology but they feel different than just the word.

[LAUGHTER]

KATHY: Second question: What is a gonad.

MOLLY: (GASP) A gonad is testes and ovaries

KATHY: Reproductive gear

MOLLY: The reproductive parts that come in pairs. Someone said to me on the phone, "Gonads are magical organs" and once that happened I thought, "I'm going to go stand there, what is that about?" I didn't even know gonads was a science term.

TOBIN: Hmm. You thought it was a slang term?

MOLLY: I just thought it was a slang term for balls.

TOBIN:  I'm just curious like, how did you get interested ... like what drove you into this series?

MOLLY: So there’s much happening in science right now, like with technology and just research that's reframing how we understand, like, how we make more of ourselves. You want to be in the place where something is being re-framed, like, as you go. Right? And so much of the science that we've looked into, especially in the episodes that are coming up about how your body commits to, you know, being egg or sperm, so much of that science is new. We found that while we were reporting, a lot, actually a lot of the most interesting answers were the "I don't knows." Cause they're just right at the edge of science.

TOBIN: How can people listen to the series?

[GONADS THEME MUSIC STARTS]

MOLLY: It's all on the Radiolab feed so you can get it wherever you get podcasts. Or you can just go to the Radiolab website.

KATHY: Molly Webster, thank you for stopping by. We love you.

MOLLY: Kathy Tu, thank you!

TOBIN: I don't get a thank you?

MOLLY: I figured we'd do it personally, one on one. (laughter) I thought we were going to look into each other's' eyes and do deep personal messages. I didn't want to lump everyone together.

TOBIN: Well I appreciate it

KATHY: We come as a package though.

TOBIN: Alright alright, onto the show.

[GONADS THEME ENDS]

KATHY: Tobin the first ever musical I ever saw was Wicked.

[MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: Oh!

KATHY: Love Wicked, still love Wicked.

TOBIN: It’s a nice soft entrance into the musical world.

KATHY: Yeah, I saw it with my good friend Cece who lives in New York now and when we got to intermission....

TOBIN: Mhm.

[MUSIC ENDS]

KATHY: ...which I thought was halftime, I thought it was over! She sang a big song, the lights came up, people got out of their seats. I thought it was the end of the musical because you know, musicals are strange.

TOBIN: [LAUGHING] That makes no sense in the plot of that musical. That would be the most unsatisfying ending.

KATHY: She becomes the evil person!

[ TOBIN LAUGHS]

KATHY: Is that not the end?

TOBIN: You just thought it was a dark musical, she’s evil, that’s it, everyone go home.

[MUSIC STARTS]

KATHY: Yeah.

TOBIN: Well at least now you know that there is a second half.

KATHY: So funny story, I went last year with superstar producer Matt Collette to Groundhog Day, the musical, and at intermission I again thought it was over.

TOBIN: [LAUGHING] No, wait, I’ve also seen that musical and if it had ended there, the story would have just been, "Guy gets stuck in perpetuity and never gets out."

KATHY: You know, at least I didn’t call it...

[MUSIC ENDS]

KATHY: ...halftime.

[TOBIN LAUGHS]

[THEME MUSIC STARTS]

VOX 1: From WNYC Studios, this is Nancy!

VOX 2: With your hosts, Kathy Tu and Tobin Low.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

[WHISTLE]

TOBIN: Kath.

KATHY: Tobe.

TOBIN: As long as we’re talking about Broadway.

KATHY: Ugh, yeah.

TOBIN: Okay. This is a great segue to talk about one of my favorite Broadway stars, Alan Cumming.

KATHY: I know him from Spy Kids.

TOBIN: Oh God.

KATHY: X-Men! X-Men.

TOBIN: No yes, he is in those movies. That’s totally fair. But I know him and love him best for his starring role in a musical called Cabaret.

[SONG PLAYS]

TOBIN: He won a Tony award for playing the role of the Emcee in that musical and I got a chance to see him perform it a couple years ago. It was incredible, he played this really, like, bawdy character that serves as larger than life master of ceremonies. But outside of Cabaret the musical he also performs solo cabarets, which are these they’re these really intimate one man shows performances where he tells stories and sings songs. And he’s about to perform one of them at Cafe Carlisle and Joe’s pub in Manhattan which is where I got to meet up with him

ALAN: We’re in a kind of...rather drab dressing room.

TOBIN: It’s a little…damp.

ALAN: Is it damp? Like smelly damp?

TOBIN: Oh no I think the humidity...

ALAN: It’s the humidity, those flowers look like they’ve seen better days.

TOBIN: This new show is all about his experience as a Scotsman who became an American citizen 10 years ago. And he talks a lot about what’s going on with the Trump administration. A little side note, we recorded this conversation a couple weeks ago before the situation at the border escalated. Anyway, his show is a commentary on America's attitudes about immigrants. Even down to the title...it’s called Legal Immigrant.

ALAN: And you've got to have a snappy title. We're so used to hearing the word illegal in front of immigrant. And we’re so used to having a connotation of something negative when we hear stuff about immigration or refugees or just people who are different to us. And so I called my show "Legal Immigrant" to make people go what? Wait? Isn’t it illegal immigrant? And to actually draw attention to the fact that it doesn't really matter what your prefix says anymore. The very notion of immigration itself has this negative connotation and I think the irony of a country that is built by immigrants is...it's like historical revisionism happening right in front of us.

TOBIN: Part of the art of cabaret is that you're doing it it's almost like hosting a dinner party. I feel like like you you create an environment you tell stories you sing the songs you love. So I'm wondering like with this show what environment are you trying to create?

ALAN: It's interesting that it's like a dinner because it's also got structure as well. Like you know you take the audience through a structure and you have to kind of end, and so I guess the environment I'm trying to create is what I always would is...I mean to use the food metaphor like a smorgasbord of I think is it should be. I want people to laugh I'll tell funny stories and you know I'm quite funny. And I sing a couple of funny songs. And also to cry, it's really moving. There's a song I sing in this show called Caledonia about Scotland. I've never got through it without crying and it's so ridiculous as you know I talk about being Scottish and I talk about you know and then I sing the song I just can't get through it. But the thing I'm trying to create would be this I think...cabaret the form is so exciting because of its ability to change on a sixpence.

TOBIN: Right.

ALAN: Both genres and the styles of song but also the emotion you'd be laughing one minute and then literally crying or talking about politics one minute and then talking about you know my testicles which is-- a lot a lot of mentions of my testicles in the show. So that's that's what I want to create.

TOBIN: Yeah well I wanted to talk about Caledonia actually.

ALAN: I thought you were going to say my testicles.

[LAUGHTER]

TOBIN: We can talk about that too, in a minute but you know there's this theme in the show about immigration and becoming an American citizen and that song Caledonia. It's a song about being homesick.

ALAN: Yeah.

TOBIN: For Scotland. When I think about you know this narrative around becoming an American citizen a lot of it is about like being really proud to be an American. Like really proud to be here. And that doesn't leave much room for talking about how you miss home.

ALAN: Yeah.

TOBIN: Or how you can be homesick.

ALAN: Yeah.

TOBIN: I wonder if you think about that.

ALAN: Oh I do. That's why I put that song in. Really. I mean I talk a lot about becoming...why I became a citizen and how it feels to be an immigrant to this country in the present time when the rhetoric about immigration is so negative. And anyway, that's what the whole shows about. I talk very much as well about how I'm very proud to be an American. You know I want to I want America to regain some of the things that I was so excited about but also I'm always going to be Scottish first. And living in America, rather interestingly being away from Scotland more than I've actually lived there has made me understand more about what is about me that makes me Scottish what are the qualities in me that are given to me from my country and also the very fact I'm able to be the person I am and to be doing a job that I am doing is due to the fact I went I was lucky enough to be living in Scotland to be born in Scotland and be to get a free education and to work in the subsidized theater otherwise I would never have been able to...if I was born in America my parents would never been able to afford to send me to drama school or anything. So there's...`you know I talk about that a lot.

TOBIN: Well are there lyrics in it that feel particularly meaningful to you.

ALAN: Yes, but I'll cry if I say them. That's the thing. It's all about. No I can't. I'm going to cry. I will.

TOBIN: What is it about that about it that gets you so emotional?

ALAN: There's a line, 'Caledonia's been everything I've ever had' so this idea that, like I said I feel like Scotland is giving me so much and also you know one of the things that it's given me is over sentimentality about things like my country and my people. And so I just like that I like...I think sentiment is a much maligned thing and it's not you know by definition not necessarily a bad thing. And I think we've got a good balance of it in Scotland. I think the Celts in general are you know we cry a lot. And so I was joking, you know drinking and over sentimentality of the two favorite pastimes in Scotland and I'm usually doing both of an evening.

[LAUGHTER]

TOBIN: Do you have a favorite story that you tell on the show?

ALAN: Well there's a whole sequence about aging and testicles and things of that.

TOBIN: What about aging and testicles?

ALAN: Well just about how I went to the dermatologist for years ago. And I had I had two little dots. It was as though someone had had a red sharpie and done a little 'bop bop' on one of my testicles and I  had a look down there and thought oh that's weird I wonder what that is. So I said to a dermatologist...these little dots over here ..And I suddenly thought, someone did pick, you know, do the sharpie down there. I just didn't notice. And he had a look and he went, "Oh that's nothing to worry about Alan, that's just a normal part of scrotal aging" and I was like "What the fuck did you say?" And it's a thing-- scrotal aging is a medical thing so anyway I talk about how over the years I've noticed a distinct change in with gravity ...and once I was in a I was once in a roman baths in Budapest when I was making a film there. And I went to is amazing roman baths place, the Gellert baths, ah it was amazing, you know you go down these steps into these pools and it's all it's beautiful frescoes and at the showers afterwards, I saw this my old man but I was like early 30's I was in a phase of not wearing under pants and just feeling very free and you know la dee da and I saw this man with literally his balls at his knees. I've never seen anything like it. It was a game changer. I was just standing there, paralyzed with just realization and fear and I left those roman baths and went straight and bought a jockstrap and I have been hiking my balls up ever since.

TOBIN: So you did have an immediate connection of not just being horrified but like, that's the future.

ALAN: That’s me. There's me. Those are my balls if I don't get my shit together. Yeah.

TOBIN: You gotta keep ‘em high and tight

ALAN: You totally do...support them. Yeah. And then my doctor told me about that he went to someone on a patient visit wanted of Botox in his balls.

TOBIN: Is that a thing?

ALAN: It's a thing. Guess what it's called? Scrotox.

TOBIN: Scrotox.

[LAUGHTER]

ALAN: And I know a lot of gay guys love the big ball thing, they love like-- and so this man wanted to have bigger balls, like hanging out balls and I mean Botox relaxes your muscles. Yes I things so that's why you don't get wrinkles. And so with your balls it just means they dangle because they're not being held up by the by the muscles.

TOBIN: Why would you want that?

ALAN: Because I think if you I think you know if you want to make a feature of it of them. I was like saying, I don't know why you're bothering to pay the money for scrotox just a couple of years that's going to happen.

TOBIN: It happens naturally.

ALAN: Believe me. But I think actually it's the thing that you know people are that's a thing people love big balls. Some people.

TOBIN: Do they really?

ALAN: Don't you know you think? They sometimes say like you know big balls...dangly balls as a sort of thing on people's apps. Grindr and stuff.

TOBIN: I just have never paid that much attention I feel like.

ALAN: What?

TOBIN: Like... it's not the main feature for me.

ALAN: Me neither. No no.

TOBIN: But you notice them.

ALAN: Well you're down there you know. I mean it's definitely a thing. And they're more in vogue right now and…

TOBIN: They’re having a moment.

ALAN: Having a moment.

TOBIN: We’re in the moment.

ALAN: This is the age of balls.

TOBIN: The New York Times is going to write a trend piece any second.

ALAN: I know.

TOBIN: The year of balls.

ALAN: The front page.

TOBIN: This is not where I thought we were going but I’m so delighted that we did.

ALAN: I can’t believe you’re not interested in balls. I mean not-- interested, or that you’ve never sort of considered balls.

TOBIN: Well I think it's interesting to hear your talk about it because you touch on this a little bit but I also think it's a thing that queer men are incredibly bad at talking about.

ALAN: Balls?

TOBIN: Aging. Like anything to do with aging.

ALAN: They're terrified of it yeah. Yeah. I talk about it. I mean when I laughed at that dermatologist thing,  I tweeted immediately about scrotal aging. I think I think queer culture has really has-- or gay and bisexual men anyway it's fascinating in that it's very youth and body conscious and very you know people talk about their summer bodies and everything and it's very-- gym culture. I mean it's less so now because I remember when I first came here in the late 90s you know it was all muscle and everyone was shaved and so it's nice that people are hairy now and there's different bodies and things but it is very much a sort of a culture as obsessed with youth and with strength… with show of strength...I once, years and years ago I had sex with a big muscle boy and I thought oh this is going to be great. And he was so weak because basically all of his muscles were just for show.

TOBIN: It's all vanity, yeah.

ALAN: Yes! I could hold him down. But at the same time as that I think interestingly now and as an older man myself, the older people are more engaged in the sort of you know sexual sort of what's the word zeitgeist than they used to be I think. Because there's this whole thing about Daddy's. And so I think aging, as a gay or bisexual man and you know I think  before it'd be, in your mid 30s you kind of just put out to pasture. Now I think it's an interesting time because actually young people are not closed off to older men.

TOBIN: You know you're deeply associated with this role of the emcee in Cabaret. You did it for several times.

ALAN: Yeah.

TOBIN: And there's something about that role that so like eccentric and like very sexually open. And I imagine that would lead people to assume a lot of things about you?

ALAN: The thing I think most people assume I don't like is that I thought that there would be a meanness to me. I think I think people especially in America associate sexually free people with kind of meanness...to be sexy somehow got to be mean. I get lots and lots of people sending me things on Instagram or Twitter when they're doing Cabaret at schools and colleges and everything. They send me pictures of themselves and it a lot of the time I see them being sexy but where there's kind of a sneer to it. And that's what I don't do and I didn't do in Cabaret. And I think that's what was different and shocking and mysterious for people and curious. But I think that's something that people sometimes assume that because I am quite like that in my life. I want to deride people and I never ever do that.

TOBIN: Yeah. Do you remember the first time you realized you could sing?

ALAN: No. Because I actually didn't really come to singing until much much later. I mean I know I can hold a tune you know. But the idea of me having a show where I'm singing like, "I'm Alan Cumming, come and hear me sing." That's that's taken a long time for me to comfortable with that. That did not happen until very recently. But I sang-- I first sang in a stand up comedy double act. My friend Forbes Mason in Scotland we were at drama school we made up this thing called Victor and Patty and sort of you know, a character comedy thing and we would sing in that, we wrote the songs and sang and so. And they were they were great songs. But they were sort of meant to be funny. So it didn't really count as much right in my view. And then I sing in some plays and then I did Cabaret and of course I sang a lot in that. I never really thought myself as a singer until much and really until I did in 2009 I did a concert for the first time at the Lincoln Center the American songbook thing and And I was just so scared of it. I never the idea of me singing as me was very difficult for me to come to terms with…

TOBIN: That's surprising to me to hear because 2009... you would have already done your at least your first run in Cabaret

ALAN: I’d done the first one cabaret, I'd done the Threepenny Opera on Broadway. Yeah I done some movies...I’d done musicals. You know it's not logical. But actually there's a difference between when you're performing as a character. I'm not singing as myself. I don't sound like that when I sing I sound like this I sing in my own voice and it's a very different thing. And also it's just the idea of not being in character...removing the veil that is between you and the audience is a huge thing to do and I thought if I'm going to do that I really wanted to I want to be personal and authentic...I mean I love people who are Broadway people and do their concerts and everything like that. But that's not me. I've never had a voice like that. I've never wanted to sound that way. I just don't I couldn't even if I tried. And I actually I think people aren't coming. People are never going to come to see me because of the mellifluous tones of my voice. They're going to come to hear me sing because I interpret songs so...  I think by necessity...there has to be more at stake because of that. Yeah and you have to be more prepared to be vulnerable and so that was took me a long time to be prepared to do that.

TOBIN: Alan Cumming thank you so much for talking...for making the time.

ALAN: Thank you.

TOBIN: This was so fun.

ALAN: I had lots of fun. Yes. It's so great. Thank you very much.

[EXCERPT OF ALAN CUMMING SINGING 'CALEDONIA']

TOBIN: If you're in New York, you can catch Alan Cumming's caberet, 'Legal Immigrant' at Cafe Carlisle and Joe's Pub from June 26th to the 30th.

[MUSIC]

VOX: Nancy will be back in a minute.

[MUSIC ENDS]

[WHISTLE]

[MUSIC]

TOBIN: And we’re back!

KATHY: So Tobin, one of the things we love hearing about is where people all over the country gather.

TOBIN: So like, in choirs and clubs and bagel brunches. By the way have you managed to work your way into that like, bagel brunch gaggle?

KATHY: Sort of, we are in a texting group.

TOBIN: Oh!

KATHY: Anyway, yes, I was talking about this with our pal Lewis Wallace

TOBIN: Ugh, Lewis is so great, he did that beautiful story about his grandmother.

KATHY: He did. And he was like I've got another story for you. A very different story about a place that he discovered.

[MUSIC ENDS]

LEWIS: So I grew up going to Columbia, South Carolina pretty much every summer because that’s where my mom is from so of course at a certain age I started looking for the gay people. And like, how do you find gay people? I googled ‘gay bar Columbia, South Carolina.’ One place kept coming up, it was called PT’s 1109, one address, 1109 Assembly Street, and I would go there to 1109 Assembly St and I didn't see anything. No rainbow flags, no nothing. And I did that a few times, like on a couple different occasions, Googled 'gay bar' went to address, nothing there. And 1109 Assembly, I should tell you  is like right across the street from the state capitol, which is this very conservative state assembly, known for that in South Carolina. So then I'm at thIs wedding, it was actually my mom's wedding, but that's a whole other story. So I'm at a wedding, I met a guy on the dance floor who was like oh I can tell you how to get to PT's 1109.

[MUSIC STARTS]

LEWIS: And I'm like, yeah I've tried to find it, I can't find it. And he gives me instructions, he says okay no no no, you can't, there's nothing in the front, you have to look for this sushi place, go around the back to the parking lot, go up these wooden steps to a door with a red light above it.

[MUSIC STOPS]

TOBIN: And then you will encounter a unicorn who will ask you three questions. And if you answer two of them correctly--

KATHY: This sounds more like...

LEWIS: More like a brothel

KATHY: Yeah I was going to say. The red light. Yeah.

TOBIN: Wait so what does it look like when you walk in?

LEWIS: It's totally magical. It's also just like a regular gay bar, kind of in the way that small town gay bars are even though Columbia is not really a small town you know, a stage at the front, a long bar, pool tables, there's gay men, there's lesbians, there's trans folks, like everybody's there. All ages. That kind of spot, which I love. And that's where I meet Pat.

[MUSIC]

LEWIS: And Pat is kind of like a regular-looking white guy. A theater professor at a local college and he's the force behind one of South Carolina's longest-running drag shows—18 years.

PATTI: Right now, I’m Pat Patterson, but with a little help from makeup I will transform into Ms. Patti O’Furniture, the Carolina’s queen of cocktails and comedy. Someone once told me that I look like the illegitimate love child of Kathy Griffin and Bozo. So, I’ll take that. I can live with that.

LEWIS: Can you describe your outfit?

PATTI: Glamorous, gorgeous, sickening, for the gods, lovely...oh, you mean this little old thing? Oh! The show’s about to begin!

VOX: Good evening boys and girls and welcome out to PT’s 1109. If it’s Tuesday night, it’s Columbia’s ultimate free drag show, tonight’s a very special night…

PATTI: The very first time I came in here, you had to sign in, and we all signed in under fake names, because we didn’t want anyone to know we were going here, it was the cruisey bar…

VOX: Please give it up for the one and only yard sale with legs, Miss Patti O'Furniture!

PATTI: Originally, it was a darker, more traditional male clientele. And now, our audience has broadened to a much more diverse audience, men and women, gay and straight, and everything in between.

PATTI ON STAGE: Y’all know that one of my things that I love to remind people about is practicing safer sex. And so...we have a little game I wanna play, and I know that both you boys know about safer sex. Do you have any children? Have you ever impregnated a woman?

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: I’ve never touched a vagina.

PATTI ON STAGE: Thank god, neither have I’m sure they’re lovely.

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Vagina is not bad!

PATTI ON STAGE: I’m sure vaginas are lovely but it’s like Idaho, I don’t wanna go there…

PATTI:  Several years ago. Some students at USC did a short film about me and how I come from a political background here in the States.My grandfather and my mother are both elected officials that I was a professor that they had money to charity and also that I'm a camp queen a comedy queen. And somehow it wound up in the paper, in my parents hometown paper. I get a call from my mom and she says "We need to talk." "What about?" "I was in the grocery store and Miss So-and-So from church came up to me and said 'oh you must be so proud of Pat'" because the article referenced the fundraising that I do and it also referenced mom and her political career. Well my mom said she didn't know how to respond and that she thinks we might need to go to family counseling to talk about it. My mom thought that it was a gender identity issue. She thought that this was me wanting to become a woman and I was like, "No, Mom I've always played dress up." But we went to family counseling and I had to come out to my parents as a drag queen and we're sitting in the counseling session and my dad's sort of like, yeah whatever. And the counselor looks at my mom and realizes as we got to the end of the first session. She says, "so I guess we'll maybe look at," you know speaking directly to my mother, "look at you just you coming next time because it seems like your husband and your son don't have a problem with any of this." Less than a year after that I was asked to emcee the Pride Festival in my hometown and I came home, stayed at my parents home. Didn't make a big deal about what I was doing. You know I'm going to do a show, sort of the polite southern euphemism for I'm going to go cross-dress and lip sync and make money, and I go to the Pride Festival and I walk out on stage to do the opening number of the festival. I look out and my mom is sitting front and center in the audience. Well I walked backstage and one of my friends was backstage waiting to be the next speaker and she said "Are you OK." And I said "Yeah I think so." I said "the only thing that could make today any more awkward is if she shows up backstage" and my friend Tracy looks over my shoulder looks back at me says "Well get ready, because here she comes." And my mother was walking towards me backstage and she stretched her arms out towards me and she said, "Hello gorgeous." And she hugged me and she said "I am so proud of you."

PATTI ON STAGE: And thank you for coming to PT’s 1109 in Columbia tonight! And as we say with my two big old balloon titties, cause these are balloons, these are not real girls...TaTas!

PATTI: Well you know one downside to doing what I do it's the fact that it's very solitary. Yeah I like I'll leave here tonight and you know maybe there'll be another customer who's in the service industry who keeps the same hours that I do. So he might go to an all night breakfast place and grab coffee or something to eat. But who knows maybe one of these days somebody will catch my eye, I'll take the makeup off real fast to get back out into the audience.

[MUSIC]

TOBIN: Alright, that's our show, it is credits time.

KATHY: Producers!

TOBIN: Matt Collette and Alice Wilder.

KATHY: Intern!

TOBIN: Melissa Lent.

KATHY: Sound designer!

TOBIN: Jeremy Bloom.

KATHY: Editor!

TOBIN: Jenny Lawton.

KATHY: Executive Producer!

TOBIN: Paula Szuchman.

KATHY: I'm Kathy Tu.

TOBIN: I'm Tobin Low.

KATHY: And Nancy is a production of WNYC Studios.

[CREDITS MUSIC ENDS]

TOBIN: So, Kath I have written you as a little bit of a, a little bit of a sarcastic foil. But it doesn't have to be full.
KATHY: I know my role, I know my role, I play this one well.

TOBIN: I'm just saying it doesn't have to be full on like "TOBIN." It's just like gently.

KATHY: Yeah yeah, I've got it, I've got it.

 

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