Helga: You wake up in the morning and then what happens? Oh, put your headphones on, Peter.

Speaker 2: Uh-uh.

Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Come on. Put your arms around you.

Speaker 4: I wanna hug you and hug you and hug you some more right through all these microphone cables.

Speaker 5: Go ahead.

Speaker 6: I know I'm in the right time, in the right space.

Helga: Do you feel that? I'm Helga Davis. What is family? There's a question. [chuckles] Just coming right out of the box on that one. What is family? And I know that it's not just the people you're born into. And I know from my own family that what they tell me is that I can't trust people outside of our family because they're not really family, and at the end of the day, everybody's looking for that blood connection. And that's the thing that people respond to. That's the thing that people are loyal to. That's the thing that people defend.

That's the people that people go out of the way to make right, to keep intact, and to hold up. I don't know, I don't know because what I've learned is that when you go out and you make your family, and you find the people who feel familiar to you because they will feel familiar, they will feel like they belong to you, even if you don't share blood with them, you make something that can shift and change and grow and adapt to who you are and to what you need.

You're not locked into the picture of the little person in pigtails if you had them, or the person who never cleaned their room, or the person who could never do anything right, or the person who was fat, or the person-- right? All that stuff. You get to let that go and choose something that actually supports who you are in your life. That's family. Those are the people who are family. So this conversation is with a person who is part of my family and I'm part of her family. This is the author, Jacqueline Woodson.

I was in the Strand, and a guy stopped me and he said, "Are you Helga Davis?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Oh, I know you from Hilton Als' Instagram."

Jacqueline: Oh, that's so funny.

Helga: I think it's amazing.

Jacqueline: Wow.

Helga: And it says so much about how we keep track of each other now.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. So-so, um, how long have you known Hilton because I've-- he and I have been on each other's radar and then friends for-

Helga: Right.

Jacqueline: -decades. [laughs]

Helga: Well, of course, I've read him forever but-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -I met him when we first did Einstein on the Beach in-

Jacqueline: Oh, wow.

Helga: -in Ann Arbor. And he came there because he was writing that long piece about Bob.

Jacqueline: Oh, wow.

Helga: So it's all, for me, really interesting this thing of like part of why I wanted to talk to you, one, is to catch up-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -right? But to also see all the ways in which we come together, we separate, but the lives still traverse. We still have connections. We still, you walk through the door, and immediately, something inside me settles.

Jacqueline: Yeah, you're like she made it.

Helga: And it says-- No, not she made it. Like that's home.

Jacqueline: Exactly.

Helga: Here's another place where I find home and it has nothing to do with-with where home actually is. Well, where is that anyway?

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: Or what it looks like, or it's- it's not a physical place and that I find more and more this is- this is how I make it. This is how I-I am okay-

Jacqueline: Uh-huh.

Helga: -with whatever else is happening in the world or you walk through that door and I say, "Yeah, here's- here's home. Here's a place where I see myself where I can come and that comes to me and reflects something too."

Jacqueline: Yeah, it is- it's so true. It's so interesting too because I think of, um, you know, when I want to be inside my sadness, I think of the people who don't have this and I think so many people don't have it and I think, as a result, they don't understand it. They-they don't understand that, you know, you're part of my village. Like, you're part, you've known me since when you've known the kids before they were born.

Um, I know that if I need something, I can pick up a phone, I can write a text, like, and I could not see you for a long, long time and then see you and it's like no time has passed at all. Um, I could see you in crowds and still connect, and I think it's a gift. I mean, it-it-it-it's work. It's definitely work. I think a village is not easy. Home is not easy. [chuckles] But, um, but it's, at the end of the day, you can exhale because, you know, people got you, you know, you've got people.

Um, and you can just kind of keep on moving through the stuff that you have to move through, especially now, I feel like each day I'm so grateful for my village because of everything.

Helga: Can you name a little bit some of what you feel the-the-the everything's are?

Jacqueline: Mm, I think, um, oh, there's so much.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: You know, and it's interesting trying to write through it and trying to write through an onslaught of everything from all the stuff that's happening with climate change, um, to getting texts from your people who've been flooded out and, um, to listening to what's happening, what's coming from the supposed leaders of the country to, um, watching your children as children of color, as-as girl children, um, try to negotiate the world and the messages that they're getting to all the hate that is so much more easily spewed through social media.

Whereas there was a time when you could shut down different things, um, to-to, you know, just trying to figure out. I feel like there was a time for me as, um, where it was easier to see where the hope was coming in.

Helga: Mm.

Jacqueline: Um, and now I feel like it's work to get to that hope that you have to go through a lot of the muck and mire to get to that point where it's like, "Okay, here's some light coming in-

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: -and this is the light that's going to shine me to the next moment." And, you know, it's my village and it's my- it's my writing, it's music, but at the end of the day, it's my people who I can sit down and exhale with.

Helga: Do you find that you have words for this moment, being a part of all the things that you've named, but also words for what you hope for?

Jacqueline: Mm.

Helga: Words for-- So you're talking about writing through this moment and so we know some of the elements of this moment, but are there words really?

Jacqueline: I think the thing about words is they're infinite.

Helga: Mm.

Jacqueline: And you can always find ways to put them together to make something new. And sometimes that new thing is an old thing [chuckles] that you're recreating for this particular moment in time. And so I think I'm- I'm slowly cobbling the words that are needed in this moment together but it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to quiet the mind. It's hard to focus. But once I'm in it, I-I can be there and, um, reading poetry helps, listening to music helps, um, talking helps.

I, you know, I'll text Toshi Reagon three or four times a day and say, "Get me through this writing moment," and she'll send me some words of wisdom and I'm like, "I'm good now. I can go back to writing." So yeah, it-it's definitely a journey and yet another moment of journeying.

Helga: Mm-hmm. So Toshi Reagon, was it- was it just completely obvious to you from the very beginning that you were going to name Toshi-Toshi after Toshi?

Jacqueline: Yeah, we were going to name my daughter Toshi, whether she was a girl or a boy. Um, we-we-- Toshi had gotten my partner and I together, so we promised her our firstborn. But I-- aside from that, I just always loved the name. Um, you know, Toshi Reagon was named for To-- her godmom, Toshi Seeger, um, then To--

Helga: Who is the wife of?

Jacqueline: Uh, Pete Seeger.

Helga: Pete Seeger.

Jacqueline: And, um, and then Toshi Georgianna Widoff-Woodson was named for Toshi Reagon. Uh, so we have a picture of the three generations of Toshi's.

Helga: That's awesome.

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Helga: You-you were away with your family. How long were you away for? A month?

Jacqueline: Uh, no, we were away a little over six weeks.

Helga: Wow.

Jacqueline: Yeah, we were trying-

Helga: Wow.

Jacqueline: -to move for a year, [chuckles] but that didn't come through. So we-we took six weeks off and-and left the country.

Helga: Tell me something about, first of all, your desire to move, like move from New York, move from the United States, move--

Jacqueline: Move from the United States and just step outside of it and-and try to get grounded. Um, I think it's much harder for me. I feel, you know, I do feel like, and I know as an artist you feel this, that you are walking through the world with your skin pulled back, right? And everything is just coming at you. And I think some people have tougher skins and are sealed off and-and we're not. We-- The part of us that allows us to create is also the part of us that doesn't allow us to seal ourselves off.

And I was hoping that taking a year off and leaving the country and just going somewhere else to bear witness from afar and get a sense of what the work was at hand was going to be the answer to it. Um, and I guess the universe told me, "Nope, you could go away for six weeks, but you need to get your behind right back here and do your work here."

Helga: Isn't that interesting?

Jacqueline: Yeah. And it's interesting cause you know, coming through the great migration, right? So my family left South Carolina for New York, um, in the heart of Jim Crow. And people stayed and people stayed and suffered through it and fought it and people left for better opportunities for their family. And it's-- For me, it's that constant, "Do I stay? Do I go?" Um, because there are people who don't have the option of leaving, other people who don't wanna leave who are getting kicked out. So it is that zen moment for me of saying, "Okay, I'm going back. I've rested, I'm ready, [chuckles] for the revolution.

Helga: You real-- You-you feel-you feel rested and ready?

Jacqueline: I do. But there's still a lot of self-care going on. There's still a lot of, um, ways I have to kind of protect myself daily to make sure I don't get to that point of being overwhelmed like I was before I left. We'll see how long it lasts. You know, I'm-- We've only been back two weeks. [chuckles]

Helga: Yeah, but still.

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Helga: Still. I-I was thinking too about, especially with regard to you, is this idea of family and how-how big your family is and that your family is part of your village, which is part of your community, which is part of your-your way of being in the world. But I-I am also particularly struck by how I think it's one of the-one of the skill sets we need to add to living in the world right now is how we make family.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And that we have to learn to make family wherever we are. Because what's true is that our family is everywhere. I mean if you go into any group of people, you can find the person who is like your mother, the person who is like your father, who is like your brother, who is like the boy in sixth grade that pulled your hair. We're surrounded all the time by our people. And so we attract them to have whatever experience we need to have with them to continue to work out whatever it is we need. [laughs]

Jacqueline: So true.

Helga: We need to work out with them. And they are there to-to serve us in that capacity even if it doesn't always feel like that. If sometimes we look at a person and we're like, "Wow, I think you're an idiot." And-and if we can-- And if we have that moment and we can take that step back and we can say, "Oh, who is this?"

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. It is so true.

Helga: "Who's talking to me right now?" Oh, that's why I'm responding to you that way.

Jacqueline: [chuckles]

Helga: Now, I get it. Um, but how did you- how did you come to make this family?

Jacqueline: Ooh. [chuckles] I, uh-- So it's interesting. I think about, you know, another Brooklyn, and when I was writing it in that sense of needing your girls and people who don't have people. Um, I feel like the first person who I met, um, was Linda Villarosa. Linda Villarosa and I were housemates and she runs the J-School at City College now, but she was the first out lesbian at Essence Magazine and wrote a big piece about coming out to her mom. Um, and she-she started, um, a publishing company and published a recent bio of Audre Lorde.

Um, she-she just wrote a cover story for New York Times Magazine on the impact of HIV in Mississippi among Black men. I mean, she's badass. Like she's-

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: -she's doing the work and she's always been doing the work. Um, and she and I were housemates, you know, and now we're sisters basically. And through her, I met Jana. Eventually, Toshi I met through an ex-girlfriend that we were both dating. [chuckles]

Helga: Yes.

Jacqueline: Um, at the same time who Liza McAlister who we're-- who is now the head of, um, I think religious studies at Wesleyan, um, and something else. But she's Elizabeth McAlister at Wesleyan. But, you know, I'm grateful to her because she created the family that became Toshi. And through Toshi, I met my partner Juliet 'cause her brother plays in Toshi's band. But it just- it was this kind of organic outgrowth of people who you turn around and 25 years, 30 years have passed and they've been in your lives and they've been the aunts and the godmoms to your children.

Um, Carl, I feel like I met Carl when we were so young and he was already-- Carl Hancock Rux was already doing amazing things in the world of theater and literature. And so he was kind of this-- Uh, I was awestruck by him as a, um, when I was younger, um, even though he's younger than I am. [chuckles] But, um, the people just stayed and-and showed up and continued to show up and our circles revolve around each other through art, through music, um, through journalism, through medicine, you know, my partner's a physician.

And um, but through her, I met some people that she had gone through medical school with and the residency. So it just goes on and on.

Helga: But in your family-

Jacqueline: Uh-huh.

Helga: Did you grow up with both of your parents?

Jacqueline: I grew up with my mom and my grandmother. So it was a two-parent home. It wasn't a mom-dad situation.

Helga: So already from the beginning-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -you were in an alternative to what the larger society said was a correct--

Jacqueline: "Normal family".

Helga: Normal family.

Jacqueline: Yeah. And we didn't have close relatives nearby. I mean we had an uncle, um, and maybe a cousin or two, but-but every-- all of our people were down south still. So my-my earliest memory of family is chosen family. My best friend Maria and her mother and her grandmother who-- It's funny 'cause I went back, um, to visit her grandmother with Toshi with my daughter. And, um, her grandmother's like [Spanish language] like, "Why is she-- Why does she speak Spanish?" I'm like, uh, "Because [Spanish language]."

You know, I'm like, and I-I said to Maria, "When did your grandmother stop speaking English?" And she said, "She never spoke English. You always spoke to her in Spanish." And you know, Maria had this whole monolingual Spanish side. And as a child, I spoke to them in Spanish and I grew up speaking both those languages, but I had completely forgotten it as I moved away from my childhood community and, um, was around very few monolingual Spanish speakers. And it was so interesting because, um, they were my family.

I mean, they fed me, I spent the night over her house all the time. We spent the night over her grandmother's house. Her aunt who was, you know, this kind of butch out lesbian was like, you know, our idol because she was so beautiful, she was so handsome, and she always had these beautiful girlfriends. And-and so it was interesting that when as a child people would talk about broken homes, even single mothers as, um, other, and as not the way society should be, I was like, "What? Are they trying to talk about my family?"

Like, and I'll be ready to fight, right? Because like, for me, it was-- This was real and this was everything I needed.

Helga: And it was working.

Jacqueline: Yes, yes. It was completely working and it still works. I mean, you know, my mom and dad got back together when I was 12 or 13. Um, and they lasted until I went to college. And as a result, you know, my dad, I adore. I-I'm very, very close to him and he lives in Ohio. Um, but them together was not working, like they argued all the time. There was a reason they had separated in the first place. But yeah, I definitely grew up with my people being not blood-related always and being very, very close to them.

Helga: And feeling always that that was- that was okay. Like the not ever feeling like you needed to justify that to the world in any way.

Jacqueline: No, and more so I felt like the world needed to justify to me why they thought it wasn't okay. Um, it's interesting because Tayari was talking about this.

Helga: Tayari.

Jacqueline: Tayari Jones is another um, uh, writer, and her most recent book is called An American Marriage, which is phenomenal. I was at the Well-Read Black Girl Festival this weekend, but she was talking about growing up in Atlanta and not knowing anything other than a Black community. She had Black teachers, you know, her whole community was Black, and she was going to Spelman and then she got information about Florida State or some school and she's like, "I wanna go to this school maybe 'cause they have a Burger King on campus or something whack."

And her dad was like, "That's a white school. That's a white university." She's like, "What do you mean? They have a white university? Like universities where white people go?"

[laughter] And it was so funny because it is kind of the bubble you're raised in. And then- and then she's like, "Yeah, I guess they have to be educated too."

[laughter]

But-but it was so interesting that, you know, when someone steps inside your bubble and says, "Your bubble is other." And it's like, "No, get out my bubble. You're other."

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: Um, and even in my neighborhood, the neighborhood I grew up in, which is Bushwick, um, reading the paper and seeing that they were saying it was, um, a ghetto neighborhood or an underserved neighborhood, or underprivileged at that time, that's what they called it. And for me, I was always thinking they must be talking about somewhere else.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: Because not where I live. There's so much privilege where I live and, you know, the privilege to go to your friend's house and have a great dinner to dance Merengue to, you know, have a block party to jump double dutch. I mean, the list just went on and on-on of how happy we were and for someone to step out-- come out from outside and-

Helga: And name you.

Jacqueline: -and try to name it. Yeah.

Helga: As other.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Helga: Did you have a big moment of coming out to your parents?

Jacqueline: Um, I didn't, you know, my-my family was Jehovah's Witness, so I grew up in a pretty conservative family in that respect. But it was- it was kind of a gradual coming out. I mean, when my mother found out, she was so pissed and-and, but they always knew I was always such a tomboy, you know, and they always told me I walk like my, um, Aunt Alicia who's gay and that-- no or that I walk like my dad, um, that I was always being told, I walk like Jack, who's my father. Um, and it wasn't-- I mean, they were angry. My mother's like, you're not gonna live here.

But I was already in college at that time. And then they-they-- and my grandmother was mad about it, but they were also like, I think they were more mad that they had been right. You know-

Helga: Uh-huh.

Jacqueline: -that they had known 'cause parents know. I mean, parents know who their children are. Hopefully, they do. I think there's a lot of deep denial that goes into it sometimes, but we know. Um, and-and they struggled with it for a long time. And I think it was more, um, when I was dating interracially because I think that was pretty other to them.

Helga: Huh.

Jacqueline: And I think they felt more comfortable when my partners were of color because that's what they knew. But in the end, I mean, they adored Juliet and they adored my ex-partner, um, Theresa. And-and they adored my community. And so, you know, my mother before she passed away would join us for Thanksgiving. And our Thanksgivings are like 40 people. And as you know, like the kids' dads, there's half-siblings, their aunts, their uncles, their--

Helga: Will you talk about that a little bit?

Jacqueline: About the family makeup?

Helga: Yeah.

Jacqueline: Um, so-so Toshi is now 15.

Helga: To-Toshi, your daughter?

Jacqueline: To-Toshi. My daughter who's named for her, godmom, Toshi Reagon. Her dad is, uh, my close friend James, who's, uh, a professor of education in Vermont. And so he has his partner in Vermont and they have Toshi's, half-sister, Junah.

Helga: How did you all even have this? What was this conversation even, Jacqueline?

Jacqueline: Well, um, uh--

Helga: Did you always wanna have kids?

Jacqueline: I wanted-- I-I always knew I wanted to have kids. I-I-- you know, from the time I was a kid, and you know, the narrative as a child is like, "Yeah, you'll grow up, you'll get married."

Helga: Married.

Jacqueline: "You'll have kids." I never saw myself in a wedding gown walking down the aisle. I just never wanted that kind of attention. But I always saw myself with a family.

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: Like that was never- it was never a question. And I didn't know how it was gonna happen, but I knew I wanted to have a family. And even when Linda and I were housemates, um, back in the day, we would talk about the plans of one day having lots of kids and you know, them growing up together and-and which is what they've done. So-so then Toshi's half-sister, Junah is five months younger than Toshi. And-and Junah's mom is An Na, who's also a children's book writer. Um, and we've known each other for 20 years.

And the-the girls are best friends and they see each other a lot and they're the same age. Um, and it's funny cause James is white and-and An Na's Korean. So Junah's half white and half Korean. Toshi's half Black and half white. And the girls have-- both have their dad's dimples. Um, and so you could see some of him in them both. But then they-- and they both have his personality at times. [chuckles] Um, but-but we see them a lot. You know, we-we-

Helga: Right.

Jacqueline: -go to Vermont, they come here, um, and--

Helga: But-but I-I just feel like I'm gonna stop you because it's so-- I mean, I've known you all this time and so I-I know-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -all of this right. But even when I sit here and I look at you and I listen to it for someone outside to listen back and say, "Okay, so she has a child with a person who has a partner, who has another child, but those children- their children grow up as sisters." Like, it sounds incredible.

Jacqueline: [chuckles]

Helga: And how is it that all of these people have, first of all, that they've chosen each other and they've decided to come together.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And get together, get the children together, get themselves together, and make a family.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And this is a thing that I feel like is-- it's just getting so lost-

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Helga: -in-in our political discourse, in our social and cultural discourse right now, even in my own family, right?

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: So I'm one of six.

Jacqueline: Hmm.

Helga: I have a brother who died two years ago.

Jacqueline: Hmm.

Helga: And I'll never ever, ever, ever forget at the funeral, and this happened when my father died too, actually, because I didn't live with him. And my brothers are much, much older than I am. I had the impression that I didn't know this person at all.

Jacqueline: Hmm.

Helga: But not at all, except for some very pre-verbal, pre-conscious feelings I had when I look at pictures, when I walk around certain parts of Harlem, that's where I grew up.

Jacqueline: Hmm.

Helga: At the funeral, one of my brothers said-- brother's friends said to me, "Oh, yeah, I didn't even know he had a sister."

Jacqueline: Wow.

Helga: Right. And like I-- and having to deal with that in the presence of grief.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: Of this life passing and I'm never having the opportunity to know now.

Jacqueline: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Helga: So even in as much as I come from these eight people, like including my parents, I also understand that the same thing could happen to me.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Helga: That there would be these people who know things about me and who know me in a way that my family-- the family that I was born into have-have no clue.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And know really no pathway into, for lots of reasons.

Jacqueline: Uh-huh.

Helga: And so how is it that you all, and because there are more-

Jacqueline: There's more. Yeah. Um--

Helga: -made this-this decision and to-to-to make your life and to make your family look like this in the presence of so much, uh, disbelief and hatred and judgment-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -and--

Jacqueline: I think one of- one of my mantras is the final judge is God. And-and I-I always think judgment is about the other. It's about the person judging, right?

Helga: Okay. But when you're six years old and you go to school and some kid who has very different parents-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -looks at your kid and says, "How come you have two mommies?"

Jacqueline: And my kid says, "Well, what happened to your other mommy?" Like, I mean, you know, how come you have a mom and a dad? Like-like, you know, it's- it's interesting. It-it's- it's definitely its work, right? And it's transparency. I think one thing that's really important, like you make this choice to start a family and then you have a new human being in your life and-and it's not about you anymore. It's about them. And it's about what they need and what they need to know and how they're going to navigate the world. And-and part of that navigation is a transparency from the parents and the family. And it's like this--

Helga: So it starts there.

Jacqueline: Yeah. It starts from the womb.

Helga: It starts with you. Uh-huh.

Jacqueline: And I think a lot of times it, um, I knew growing up that a lot of nuclear families were lying, right? You know, and there was a lot of crazy going on in there. And there was a lot of, "Don't let this leave these four walls, keep the family information inside the house." You know, "If I hear you talking to your friends about this, I'm gonna beat you behind." So how do you not go mad living inside that bubble of crazy? And-and I think for me, as a very young person, I was like, "I'm gonna have some people to bounce this crazy off when the crazy starts happening in my family." Um, and so I can go somewhere else and say, "Okay, this is what my mom says. What does your mom say? Like, and-and let's talk about this and compare notes and have mirrors for each other." And I think from the time, um, Juliet and I were young parents, we were like, we're gonna have a village. So when we start acting crazy, there'll be other places our kids can go and other kids, they can talk to and other grownups they can go to and say, "You know, I can't talk to my parents about this, but I know I can talk to you about it. And I know you won't tell my parents and I know my parents are okay with you not telling."

Um, and like I remember, um, at one point Toshi, you know, was into wearing very little clothes. Toshi my daughter and Big Toshi was like, you know, let me tell you something. When you walk into a room, what you're saying is, "These are my thighs, these are my breasts, these are my arms, this is my butt." And is that the message you wanna walk into the room with or do you wanna walk into the room and say, "Here I am human," or however she put it. But it made so much sense and it was something I could never have come up with or I could never have said and [crosstalk] had my daughter listen.

Helga: Yes. She might not have been able to hear that from you.

Jacqueline: Yeah. And so-so for me, the extended family is about having more parenting tools, and um, having more places our kids can have these conversations and then we have to make other decisions. We're a biracial family, right? And we are a two-mom family. We are not gonna send our kid to a school where they're the only kid of color, where they're the only kid in a class with two moms or two dads. So we-we had to, from a very early age, start investigating what schools are going to see my kid as wholly human.

I remember when I was a kid and my teachers would always say, "When you go home, tell your mom and dad, blah, blah." And I'm like, "I don't have a dad." Like, and suddenly, right?

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: Oh, it's like, well, is she trying to say there's something wrong with me?

Helga: Right.

Jacqueline: And so-so you know, even on my website, it says caregivers, right? My son is in a class now. His teacher is one of two moms. Their daughter just went off to college. Um, there are two other two-mom families in the classroom. You know, there-there are plenty of-of kids of color in the classroom. And we, I-I went and did author visits. I visited, you know, I looked at schools, I talked to people, I looked at the libraries to see what kind of books they were, um, sharing with kids. And-and I did the work because I didn't want my kid to ever have to explain.

And yeah, they're gonna have to explain, you know, they're gonna go outside of New York, they're gonna go outside this bubble and someone's gonna say "What?" But I think especially with, um, a lot of the younger kids now, you know, sexually, they're kind of, um, much more fluid. Um, and in terms of identity politics, they're having the bigger conversations. And that's what I love about young people. They're like, "Okay, y'all can take your tired beliefs and-and keep on moving, but we are going to push some boundaries."

And-and so I think, um, yeah, these messages coming from people who are very intolerant and it's coming from a place of-- it-it creeps me out a little because I'm like, I'm looking at you and I'm thinking you're doing something kind of evil behind the curtain 'cause I can see it in your eyes and I can see it. By the way, you're touching that girl's shoulder and you're trying to tell me that, you know, my eye functioning and fabulous and beautiful family is not okay and I don't buy it. So-- but it is work. It is work.

I mean even like, um, my son's family is uh, my son is part Caribbean 'cause Juliet gave birth to him and he has a different dad who's Jamaican. Um, and that was a whole other complicated decision, um, that I won't go into. But, you know, he was, that school, he had to do two truths and a lie. And his lie was that he has eight brothers and sisters and-and the kids guess that it's like, that's such a lie. Um.

Helga: [laughs]

Jacqueline: And he's like, you know, I'm like, "But why didn't you say seven, which is the truth?"

Helga: Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: And, and he is like, "Oh, I didn't think to say that 'cause they would've said that's a lie." But he does have seven siblings when we count all the extended family. And one of his sisters is staying with us this week 'cause her mom is traveling. And it's lovely. You know, now we have the three kids at our house and-and it's so great to be able to engage with [unintelligible 00:33:45] and [unintelligible 00:33:46].

Helga: [unintelligible 00:33:47]

Jacqueline: Yeah. Um.

Helga: From the Brooklyn Youth Forest.

Jacqueline: From the-- Yeah. Who has that beautiful voice. So she's spending the week with us and-and it's just lovely. I mean, I love that my kids can look and see, you know, their Caribbean relatives and look here and see their Irish relatives and see their Korean relatives and see their Puerto Rican relatives and know that all of these, um, people are valid and important and worthy and-and they're gonna grow up and be ready to resist against any message that's saying, "No, they're not okay."

So I-I, you know, it's- it's definitely, definitely work. Um, and-and sometimes it's hard and sometimes it's scary. But I think, um, I do think it's the right thing.

Helga: Do you think that this kind of family, this kind of agreement around family is somehow made necessary by the fact that we live in this country? The our feeling of family that-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -that it's some-somehow exacerbated by the-the fact that we are Americans.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: Um, that we don't tell the truth about so many things. And so we-we end up in a kind of pressure cooker that forces us to just to make different kinds of choices.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. You know, I can't imagine what a different choice would've been for me.

Helga: Huh.

Jacqueline: You know, um, I-I-I feel so grateful that I love the family and the extended family, right? Even when they, they're, and they, and you know, we get into family brawls and people aren't speaking to people-

Helga: Of course

Jacqueline: -and all of that. But at the end of the day, I know they have my back. You know, and I think one thing that's different is when I was a kid growing up in Bushwick, you know, you had the women, I mean this was in Harlem too. They put their pillow in the window and they would spend the whole day--

Helga: My grandmother, all day.

Jacqueline: I love-- And they saw everything and they reported on everything and-and you were in trouble if you did something wrong. And that was an extension of family to me. And I think that, um, as much as we hated the block watchers as we call them, um, you know, we knew we were safe in this way. And I think now I, you know, I like my neighbors. They're two or three families that might have my back on the block. But I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Um, and-and that people are definitely not watching, um, the block by looking out for your children or telling your children.

I mean, I do that with my godchildren with Linda's children. Like if I see that when they were younger, I'd be like, "Guess what I saw them doing on Fifth Avenue?" Like, you know, we-we are there to tell the story. I don't know if my block is the kind of block where there, so it's our family and then there's I think one or two other people of color on the block. Um, so they know us. I mean, we stand out, but I don't know that at the end of the day, you know, that would you harbor me? I don't know if they'd harbor me.

And I think that, um, my family will. I know that if worse comes to worse, we can go to Vermont and we have a home, we have two homes cuz that's a whole other complicated story.

Helga: Uh-huh.

Jacqueline: Or we can, you know, we can go upstate or we can go to the-- my dad in Ohio. Like I know- I know the people who have my back and-and that's my extended family. And I think the situation that we are living in now warrants me to think about that.

Helga: Yeah.

Jacqueline: Um, where am I going to need to walk to? Where am I going to need to hide my children? Um, where am I going to need to go for a glass of water? You know, all of that. And-and there are people that I know I can go. And that-that makes me feel really, really grateful.

Helga: My-my Italian people said, "Sister, but what happen in the US? But don't stay there."

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: "Come, come with us. Come."

Jacqueline: Ooh.

Helga: And when I think about them, you know, I'm getting ready to go there on Sunday.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And they say, "We wait you, we wait you."

Jacqueline: Wow.

Helga: And that I'm gonna walk into a place where there are 15 people around a table, all screaming-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -and passing food and I'll sit there and not understand and no one speaks English.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And none of it matters.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: I'll only be gone for 10 days, but four of those days are going to be spent around that table.

Jacqueline: Oh, nice.

Helga: And I know that I need that.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And so here's- here's the other thing that I struggle with, but I-I live in a community where that's not a possibility for everyone.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And so how do I maximize my opportunity to see something else, to love more the people I live with every day-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -who are hurting?

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I-I just think you have to, um, harness the healing you get in Italy or wherever you get it and bring it back and be able to have these conversations around the table with others. You know, we get, well, you know, we do family dinner every Sunday and that's that huge family dinner of like 10 to 15 of us. And every single, we've been doing it for, I don't know, 15 years now. Like every Sunday without miss, unless we're, unless someone's out of the country. Um, and it still goes on with those who are in the country. But it-it's- it's like church 'cause it's that place where you can go and say, "Oh, this is what happened to me during the week. Help me exhale through and it helped me get through the new week." But yeah, I-- and I think that's the thing we can do for the people-- you know, our doors always open for-for that, who can't leave the country, who can-- I mean, we can feed them like your Italian family does, and we can give 'em some wine and we can listen and send them off, hopefully, a little bit stronger to face the week. So I mean, I hope that's what happens. I know it happens for me on Sunday nights.

Helga: Can you think of any other things like that are just part of your practice that feel accessible to someone who's not a writer? Who's not a-- Right?

Jacqueline: It helps me to go to readings and there's so many free readings in New York City, especially things where people in conversation with artists, um, just to think about other ideas and to write a paragraph. I mean, I think just write one paragraph a day. Don't even think about where it's going or what it's trying to say or what it's saying. And don't even look back on it. Write a paragraph, put your notebook away, pick it up tomorrow when you're ready, write another paragraph.

And, you know, at some point you could go back and look at those paragraphs, but I think you don't have to look at writing. The-the goal is the paragraph. The goal isn't trying to write a whole book or trying to start journal writing. You know, it could be fiction, it could be nonfiction, it could be anything, but just write a paragraph and, um, don't think about spelling or if someone's seeing it, you know, it's your paragraph. And I think, um, you know, that's how I write. I write books paragraph by paragraph.

Helga: Mm.

Jacqueline: And even, you know, someday 360 days, 110 days from now, look and see what it is. But, you know, give yourself the goal just like you brush your teeth. What it takes 30 days for something to become a habit, you know, a paragraph a day and 30 days. It's a habit. A very inexpensive one. [laughs]

Helga: A very inexpensive. Yeah. I think it's so important for people to have just small things that-that they can do.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: Um, because I think very often people say, "Oh, well, she's a successful author. She does this. She's a-- She has a car, she can--" Right?

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: And-and then they other you, which helps them not take responsibility-

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Helga: -for themselves.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: Um, and so part of what has been so beautiful about these conversations is that everyone can name the small thing that is within reach of every person to do to-to access their own minds-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -their own desires, their own creativity.

Jacqueline: Uh-huh.

Helga: And it's been such, uh, an important part of-of this work for me, is to be able to find those places in myself-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -in the people that I speak with, so that every person listening can maybe find a new place of-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -respite a new habit.

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Helga: Well, since you're here, I just- I wanna say to you again, the important thing for me was for you to be here.

Jacqueline: Yeah, yeah.

Helga: It was not about reading or-or about, about anything.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: It just was about you coming here and for us to have a chance to talk about you and about your way in the world.

Jacqueline: Mm. Yeah. It's been fun.

Helga: It's- it's a very- it's a very important thing right now that we have other kinds of mirrors to hold up-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -to the world and-and to ourselves.

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: Uh, because even if you aren't involved in politics or in any of that, there is still a person who climbs out of bed in the morning and looks in a mirror and says words, has words for what they see, has feelings about what they see. And I-I think it's so important to be in the habit of making that experience a positive one, so that we can make better choices so that we can love better. We can-

Jacqueline: Mm-hmm.

Helga: -be better humans.

Jacqueline: It's so true.

Helga: But since you are here, and since I love this page--

Jacqueline: You can read it. [chuckles]

Helga: I-- Is it okay?

Jacqueline: Yes. I wanna hear how you read it. Go for it, Helga.

[laughter]

Helga: I don't-- I can't even see. My eyes are a little bit, um--

Jacqueline: You want my reading glasses?

Helga: No, it's not that. I'm a- I'm a little bit, uh, teary.

Jacqueline: Mm.

Helga: The sky was overcast. The school bell was ringing all around us. Children were running toward the entrance. Sylvia took my hand. "You belong to us now," she said. And for so many years, it was true. "What did you see in me?" I asked her years later. "Who did you see standing there? You looked lost." Gigi whispered, "Lost and beautiful," "And hungry," Angela added. "You looked so hungry." And as we stood half circle in the bright schoolyard, we saw the lost and beautiful and hungry in each of us. We saw home. Thank you.

Jacqueline: Thank you. You read it so beautifully. Yeah. I miss those girls. [chuckles] So that's from Another Brooklyn. Um.

Helga: That's from Another Brooklyn. And that's-- Because that's what I was feeling.

Jacqueline: Mm.

Helga: Home. And so I wanted to just to share it. That's all.

Jacqueline: Oh, thank you.

Helga: So thank you. Thank you so much.

Jacqueline: Oh, thanks, Helga, that was fun.

Helga: Come put your arms around me.

Jacqueline: Eh. So where are you on this whole issue of family? I definitely want to hear from you about this. How have your notions, your ideas of family changed? Who's your family now? You can also catch up on Season 1 of Helga on iTunes or at newsounds.org. And you can also reach out to me on Facebook. Yes, indeed. Who is your family? I wanna know. I'm Helga Davis and this is Helga. Thank you so much for listening, and I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Announcer: This episode of Helga was edited by Anthony Dean with help and mastering by Irene Trudeau and original music by Alex Overington. New Sounds senior producer is Alex Ambrose. To learn more about new sounds and to discover handpicked genre-free music 24/7, visit our website at newsounds.org.

 

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