Helga Davis: You wake up in the morning and then what happens? Oh, put your headphones on, Peter.

Shara Davis: Uh-uh. Oh, yeah, come on, put your arms around me.

Peter: [laughs] I want to hug you and hug you and hug you some more right through all these microphone cables.

Helga Davis: Go ahead.

Shara Davis: [laughs] I know I'm in the right time in the right space.

Helga Davis: Do you feel that?

[music]

I'm Helga Davis. How do you talk about someone who is so multifaceted, talented, and who is a doer of things? By a doer of things I mean that he, he Hilton Als is a curator, is a photographer, is a writer, is a director, is a professor, is an author. So I found some of his words to describe what it is that he does and some words about his art making. He says that art had to have some bearing in reality in order for me to bear it. My writing had to be rooted in real feelings that come with observing reality as truthfully as possible in order to have any respect for it at all. So when I think about this and I read his words, what his words are for me are proof of my own existence. Here is my conversation with Hilton Als.

[music]

Helga Davis: Wow.

Hilton Als: I love your studio.

Helga Davis: It's good, right?

Hilton Als: It's really beautiful.

Helga Davis: It's good.

Hilton Als: You have more room than anybody I've ever known around here.

Helga Davis: Well, it's for you.

Hilton Als: It's really beautiful.

Helga Davis: You want to be in that space and--

Hilton Als: And I like your necklace too.

Helga Davis: Of course. I wanted to put you in here. Which one?

Hilton Als: The beads. I used to bead myself-

Helga Davis: Really?

Hilton Als: -when I was little. Yeah, those was are beautiful.

Helga Davis: Sharon Nova gave me these beads. They are from Nigeria.

Hilton Als: Wow.

Helga Davis: And they were money. They're very, very old.

Hilton Als: Wow.

Helga Davis: And I try and wear them every day to kind of walk around and-and not feel alone.

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: You know?

Hilton Als: Yes. When you wear-wear something like that, do you feel a connection to history or to the person that gave it to you?

Helga Davis: Both things at the same time?

Hilton Als: Yes. Yeah.

Helga Davis: Both things at the same time.

Hilton Als: And let's talk about this idea of aloneness or reality.

Helga Davis: Sure.

Hilton Als: What does that mean to you when you use that word?

Helga Davis: When I say so that I don't feel alone?

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Sometimes I get caught in-in thinking like every person that "whatever I'm going through" that I say in quotes, uh, is only happening to me. And I know it isn't. I know it isn't.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: But I feel sometimes alone with the thoughts.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Or alone with the feelings.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And I also think that there are certain things you just a person has to feel.

Hilton Als: Yeah.

Helga Davis: And-and that those things are your-- it's your path. It's your walk. It's not for anyone else to hold your hand through. It belongs to you.

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: It belongs to the way that you see, it belongs to the way-- to the choices that you've made about who you are and how you move in the world.

Hilton Als: Well that's fascinating cause today was the first day, um, an analysis where the doctor said to me, "And it's your pain." And I thought that sounds so hackneyed kind of. Um, I know that something is getting to me when it feels constructed or hackneyed.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: What does that mean to own or it's yours? What does that mean, Helga, to you? 'Cause I can't work it out in my mind what it is as artists we own. Like, because so much of what we do is ephemeral or it doesn't have monetary value. So the idea of ownership is very strange. But also I think as people of color, the idea of ownership is really strange.

Helga Davis: Really strange.

Hilton Als: And so when he said it's yours, I kind of didn't understand and didn't like owning something.

Helga Davis: Really?

Hilton Als: It was two-- it was funny. It was like two levels. It was, I don't understand what that means. And ownership of anything makes me queasy.

Helga Davis: Really?

Hilton Als: Yeah. It makes me feel like, am I now the oppressor?

Helga Davis: Uh-huh. In part, I think that has to do with just the experience itself.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: If you speak with me about the experience you're having that is disconcerting or uncomfortable, I can listen, I can empathize, but at the end of the day, it is still your experience to work through.

Hilton Als: So--

Helga Davis: Which is why you own it.

Hilton Als: So he says, so my anger, he said, you own-- I own my anger. And that then-- okay, so I'm going to take the- um, I'm going to take the old, very old feeling of being owned, possessed off of it and say, I'm just angry. And so I can just say, I am angry.

Helga Davis: Yes. Yes. And that's good.

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: First of all, when are we ever allowed to be angry?

Hilton Als: Right.

Helga Davis: Part of why I think we're-we're in any mess, and I'm not even talking about the country, I'm talking in our most basic communication, why we're in the mess is because we don't own our anger.

Hilton Als: Mm.

Helga Davis: We're so afraid of our anger.

Hilton Als: Mm.

Helga Davis: And sometimes there are people who are angry with me and I just look at them and I say, "Okay." And there's something about that that is- that's very disarming.

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: So it's not just anger we want to have, but we want the violence-

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: -that goes with the anger too.

Hilton Als: Exactly-

Helga Davis: That's where we're gonna get--

Hilton Als: To justify how awful it is.

Helga Davis: Right.

Hilton Als: Right? But I don't feel violent. I just feel-

Helga Davis: Angry.

Hilton Als: -angry.

Helga Davis: And so the question then is how does that manifest and what do we do with it? Because in the place where-- and maybe this is what your-your therapist was trying to get at with you, in the place where you don't own your anger, it's still in you and it's going to leak out somewhere.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: It is. It's gonna be in your next exchange with some person who bumps into you, who you perceive as having not-

Hilton Als: That's-that's fascinating.

Helga Davis: -not honored your-

Hilton Als: Yeah.

Helga Davis: -feelings. It's-- it will be right there.

Hilton Als: That's fascinating because I felt dangerous this afternoon that if someone was unthinking and walking across the street looking at their iPhone and bumped into me, I was going to hit them.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Hilton Als: And that's the reason we can't own our anger is because then society as we know it would disintegrate. Right?

Helga Davis: You think?

Hilton Als: Well, this is the idea. Like if you go around hitting people 'cause you're angry.

Helga Davis: Well, hitting people-

Hilton Als: That's what I mean.

Helga Davis: -is one thing.

Hilton Als: Yeah.

Helga Davis: But anger-

Hilton Als: Okay.

Helga Davis: -to say, I am angry with you that you did this or that, I feel you did this and so I feel this, I-I don't see that there's anything wrong with this.

Hilton Als: Okay.

Helga Davis: Nothing.

Hilton Als: No, there's nothing wrong with that. But how do we address it to-- how do we, um, make the anger-- how do we direct it to the correct person? If it's apparent--

Helga Davis: Then we have to build the muscle. We have to start practicing with each other.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: You have to be angry with me and in some moment and know that our friendship, our sense of home, our sense of belonging, our feeling of community with one another is not at risk-

Hilton Als: It's not endangered.

Helga Davis: -because [crosstalk] you or I are angry at the other.

Hilton Als: Because-because of the anger and-- Right.

Helga Davis: That-that has to be the first agreement.

Hilton Als: Right.

Helga Davis: The second is that then we have to practice it and we actually have to bring our anger. We have to-

Hilton Als: Hmm.

Helga Davis: -we have to do it.

Hilton Als: And how do you practice that hunger with?

Helga Davis: It's not an- it's not an easy thing.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Because I have all those fears about losing the community--

Hilton Als: That you've built.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Hilton Als: Yeah.

Helga Davis: But for instance, I have a very good friend who, um, I don't know, we were- we were talking one day and I threw something at him. And I didn't do it in a way-- in any way to be disrespectful or anything. I was being playful. And that was not the way he perceived it. And when I tell you he was angry with me, like I was scared-

Hilton Als: Wow.

Helga Davis: - that he was so angry with me.

Hilton Als: Wow.

Helga Davis: And even if I felt it was playful, for him, it was careless and disrespectful. But then I could look at him and say, "I'm sorry. And I didn't- I didn't know."

Hilton Als: Right.

Helga Davis: And I will never do that again." And it was hurtful. It was uncomfortable. We-- I think we were both a little bit shaken, but I felt after much closer to him because he actually brought himself to me.

Hilton Als: Yeah. It was you-- Uh, so when we speak of anger as-- anger is one of the more dangerous emotional truths. Or why are we taught that it is a danger to you and to other people? I think we're taught that as a way of keeping ourselves down, um, of repressing to the point of illness at times, um, this terrible true self.

Helga Davis: I agree.

Hilton Als: The true self who says I'm angry, um, don't do that again. Um, that's a true self. And the other self is the self that we know is acceptable.

Helga Davis: And I feel that-that part of life or my life, part of why I wanted to do this work with this program-

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -is to continue through conversation to give people tools to keep reclaiming all these parts of themselves. And-and they are the parts of myself I wanna have always also.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And so how do we do it? We-we have to practice. And for sure, slaves could not have anger, right?

Hilton Als: Right, right.

Helga Davis: And it's so trippy to think about how we begin to untangle all of this.

Hilton Als: Well, this is where I started with the-- um, I was describing the autobiography of Frederick Douglass to the analyst, and he says, "Which parts, you know, jump out at you?" And I said, "Well, one, when his grandmother--" I don't remember if it's his grandmother or, um, another relative because she's outlasted her time to breed. And caretake is an old woman. They just put her in a shed in the- in the forest, and she's by herself. That's one thing. Another thing is when he is- um, he's very close as a boy to his grandmother, and one day he's-- she's just gone. And so what I'm learning is-is as I read these various narratives about Black men in particular, how to remain a socialized person in the world without blame, right, but the ability to describe history better.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Um, I feel I was able to do it okay before, but I think in reading these re-- in these really incredible narratives of discovery and self-discovery, um, that I'm now-- I think what happened before was that I was afraid to read them because they were-- I didn't wanna see how close I was to something.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Hilton Als: I really have avoided these books for a long time, and I would start and feel, oh, it feels so constructed, and I would be "bored." Right? Right. Oh, this is not me. This was a long time ago. Actually, it's not a long time ago.

Helga Davis: No, it's not a long time ago.

Hilton Als: And what he's describing about the danger, the physical danger is one thing. And then he's describing his quest to read.

Helga Davis: This is what devastated me-

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: -in that autobiography that the worst day almost of his life-

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: -is the day that he learns to read.

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: -and that he can really understand the conditions in which he is living-

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: -and surviving.

Hilton Als: Yes. And when-- oh, and the-- yes. And then the doctor then said, "And what else?" And I said-- I said, just the way people are fed, they're not people. They're feeding horses, pigs, livestock better than the Black people who are taking care of it. And he describes hunger so great at times, and then being fed well, but you have to eat it in five minutes because you have to go back to work. So there's never this moment in which there is physical satisfaction. And I started to think, this is not so far away from my experience, and the reason I've avoided these books is because I didn't want to know.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And now I know, and this is made the anger bigger, righteous, bigger, depressing. Um, I feel physically depressed. I feel exhausted, but that's a sign of depression. And I feel, "Oh, there I was all along."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And so I, you know, as a kind of modern person right, I wasn't-- as you know-

Helga Davis: [laughs]

Hilton Als: -I'm living in the modern world. Those ghosts don't haunt me there.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Wretchedness-

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: -of experience is not mine, but it is actually. And the ways in which I've had to control anger in order to not feel that includes not having read them carefully before. So I don't know what to do with the anger, except I'm fighting really, really hard not to be depressed, which is to repress the anger. I have no right except to make it useful.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: What-what- mm, what I'm seeing as I read is this goes back to the spirit and the spiritual abandonment of children is not unfamiliar to me. And this is what I'm going back to, right? This is what's making me angry, is the spiritual abandonment of children affects people of color profoundly to this day because the skills and the love was so broken by separation, grief, the fear of intimacy, right? Deep fear of intimacy. Um, all of these things became-- um, were broken and some-somehow put back together. But the way that if you're putting like a table back together, the edge, um, edges don't-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: -m-meet up. But I'm always amazed when people-- or I'm amazed by myself actually, that I should have the nerve or temerity to think that I had it together and was distant from this narrative. I think what made me distance was that there's also been a lot of bad art about this shit.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: And I didn't wanna contribute bad art to it, but I think I'm figuring out a way to talk about it and not be making bad art for white people, mostly.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: I wanna make art for myself that addresses this idea of, and reality of Black maleness and that fracture. Like why isn't there someone taking care of the kids? Why is-- where is he? Where is he is the question. What happened during Vietnam? Why didn't so many men, I remember just-just literally disappear?

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Hilton Als: Walk out of the house one day and never come back.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Hilton Als: Where did he go? Where is he?

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: Where is he? That's what is heart-wrenching about reading this. Frederick Douglass is that his father, white father is only kind of mentioned, like, there's no idea that as a male, you can look to another male and have some clue about what the universe is. I never had bedtime stories read to me.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: I wasn't ushered into the world or escorted into the world. You had to figure that shit out for yourself. And that's a remnant of this kind of profound spiritual disregard that we were taught and that, unfortunately, we emulate with each other. Since we have no power really in the white world, we do it to each other.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: But I'm-I'm thinking about this idea of ownership still.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And so my analyst, I guess, is saying you have a right to have it. That's really what--

Helga Davis: Yes.

Hilton Als: -it is.

Helga Davis: Yes.

Hilton Als: Is that we have a right to have it. So what does this leg-- this terrible legacy teach us, which is we shouldn't have anything, we shouldn't respire. Right? But what Frederick Douglass is saying is, I don't know what it was in me that made me keep going back to those boys to learn. He knew that there was something there. It's the way that James Baldwin read Uncle Tom’s Cabin over and over again and A Tale of Two Cities over. And he said his mother got so scared, she started to hide the books. And he said that he doesn't know why he was reading them over and over, except there was something he had to learn.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: I feel in reading these various narratives, I have a lot to learn in terms of accepting what was in my soul and it marrying it to the fact of the-- of this language. I think this goes back to the spiritual question, right, of why I'm attracted to a performer spirit. It's because it really, um, outlasts the temporal and the ephemeral, the beauty of- beauty of theater is that it doesn't exist as you knew it from night to night. It doesn't exist.

Helga Davis: Right.

Hilton Als: And so the only unifying thing that we have, other than a printed text, is the memory of that performer giving us their spirit. And so I feel incredibly blessed as a reader now to have the spirit of Frederick Douglass in me. I used to read about him.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And I had a photo of him in my bedroom, and my mother said, "Oh, isn't that nice Hilton's interested in history?" I was really interested in how hot he looked. He was like, really beautiful.

Helga Davis: He was so beautiful.

Hilton Als: And I was like, "Sure, whatever, Mom." But the-the body of that person to withstand that, and to even write it as a memory, writing takes all your courage and energy. And to relive it, to give us that gift to let us know, I think this is what's profound. If you write it down, someone will find it.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: Someone will find it.

Helga Davis: They will find it. And I feel in your writing in particular for me-

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: -I find myself.

Hilton Als: Oh, thank you.

Helga Davis: And so this is- this is part of-of, um, again, like the-the danger that you're talking about or what-what is why you had avoided reading certain kinds of things for-for a while.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Whether I agree with what you write about a show or not, I know that-that I am in there, that Helga the actor is in there-

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Um, and--

Hilton Als: And that I've done my very best to understand.

Helga Davis: Yes. And that criticism is something that ca-can be applied-

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: -and that it's not meant to be destructive.

Hilton Als: That's right.

Helga Davis: And so part of my attraction to your work has always been to find myself, to keep finding myself.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: And when I go to my next project, uh, what does it mean to be in a role that may be highly emotional, but not to make it nostalgic or simplistic?

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: How do I do that?

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: How do I tell that story without bringing the drama of Helga into-

Hilton Als: Right.

Helga Davis: - the story, which is not necessarily good theater?

Hilton Als: I'm always touched by performers because they have to live with such incredible hope about work and about being seen and about the right kind of work. Um, I mean, their work is them. So it can veer, um, into that dangerous territory of is this acting or an excuse for some solipsism, right?

Helga Davis: Yes.

Hilton Als: I think the danger is when you don't have someone to tell you.

Helga Davis: Right.

Hilton Als: I remember working with a friend a long time ago on a piece, and she kept insisting on putting certain things in that I kept saying, "No, you have to take them out. We already have pity for you."

Helga Davis: Mm.

Hilton Als: We already see you. We already have pity for you." There's this wonderful moment in, um, Montgomery Clift is I think still my favorite film actor because he was just film. He was-- he knew how it worked and how-how to hold you with in-in close-ups and so on. Anyway, he was in judgment at Nuremberg. And, uh, he was-- um, Judy Garland was doing a scene in the film, and Stanley Kramer was with Clift watching her, and he called Cut. Stanley Kramer did. And uh, he turned to Clift who was crying, and he said, "Isn't she wonderful?" And Clift says, "No, she plays her tragedy the minute she opens her mouth."

Helga Davis: Whoo.

Hilton Als: That's not--

Helga Davis: Yeah. I-I get it.

Hilton Als: That's, we wanna see evolution. And also, you know what? It's our job to feel you. It's not your job to feel yourself.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And that's where so many performers go wrong, is that they, through either bad education or self-indulgence because they have power, um, believe that they're leading with their story or is what we're interested in, but we're not-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: - really. We're interested in the fiction that will reveal the truth. Every performer comes at you with their story, and that's amazing. What tempers it is the fiction and the craft. And then revealing- [clears throat] excuse me, revealing who you are through this experience of metaphysics as opposed to me, me, me, me, me, you know.

Helga Davis: If I didn't, I do now. [laughter]

Hilton Als: That's funny.

Helga Davis: Let's go back just a little bit, because we're gonna want to know who you are-

Hilton Als: Mm.

Helga Davis: -and what you do and how you came [laughs] -

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: - to all of this. And I was looking, and I-I was trying to say, okay, so Hilton's a writer. And I was like, "Well, no. Hilton's also a curator.

Hilton Als: Mm-hmm.

Helga Davis: Hilton's also a photographer. Hilton's a director.

Hilton Als: Mm.

Helga Davis: Hilton's a professor and Hilton's an author." Say something about yourself in all of these capacities. Curator.

Hilton Als: Oh. Um, I saw-- a friend of mine said, "Hilton's a real mocker." And it's true. I just like making things. At one point, I was living in North Hampton. I was teaching at Smith College, and my neighbors were Kim Gordon and Thurston Moore, and they were mar-married at the time, and they were very sweet. It's this very small town. And they would have me for dinner, you know, I'd go over there for dinner or "What are you up to?" And I'd go over there and it'd be snowing. It was endlessly snowing.

Helga Davis: [laughs]

Hilton Als: And I-I-I watched Thurston just do.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: So he would-- he had this little office off the dining room. It was a big beautiful house. Kim's painting studio was upstairs. Her costumes were upstairs. And I would watch them just make something.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: I was like, "Well, if they're not guilty about taking up space, why should I be guilty about it?" And I was always guilty about taking up space.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Hilton Als: This goes back to-

Helga Davis: Yes, it does.

Hilton Als: - claiming, right?

Helga Davis: Yeah. Yes, it does.

Hilton Als: And through the example of Thurston Moore in particular, I learned it was your job to make stuff. And it was also your job not to overthink it. Not to overthink the making. The making was the-the beautiful thing. Not explaining it, not analyzing it, but doing it so that it existed. And it was then that I started-- and I wasn't really writing a lot at that point. I was kind of--

Helga Davis: What year do we think this is?

Hilton Als: This was about 2005 or so, 2-- no, no, no, this is after that. So 2008.

Helga Davis: Really?

Hilton Als: Yeah. Um--

Helga Davis: You weren't writing so much then?

Hilton Als: I was writing some, but I wasn't-- I was writing some.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Hilton Als: Or I wasn't writing fully.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Let's put it that way.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Hilton Als: And I-I would then go to like Noise shows with Thurston at 2:00 in the morning, and there'd be these kids who had made amazing t-shirts. And, and I was like, "Wait a minute. Whoa. There's this whole world that said, doesn't even say, is it okay?"

Helga Davis: Right.

Hilton Als: It just does.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: And sure there are conflicts in other ways, but this thing is yours and it was just an incredibly val--  invaluable lesson to me. Another person who was very influential, um, I was trying to write a profile of Cecil Taylor. And, um, it never came to pass because no one can write a profile of Cecil Taylor.

Helga Davis: [laughs]

Hilton Als: He-he is himself and the language is his own.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: But visiting him a lot in, um, his house in Brooklyn, I'd see his poetry. I'd see his music, I'd see a camera. He didn't stop the borders. That's the thing. The borders aren't-- the borders are self-imposed. No one is saying, "Helga, you can't sing." No one is saying, "Helga you- Helga you can't act Helga, you can't have a radio show." If you didn't have those things, it's because of the limitations you put on yourself.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: These two guys through examples, I started to just--

Helga Davis: Just make stuff.

Hilton Als: - to make stuff and to not be embarrassed if it failed or it didn't work out that time or whatever. There's always going to be another time if you stay in good health and good company.

Helga Davis: Tell me about your photographs.

Hilton Als: Oh, um, that's another thing. Okay. So when I was a teenager, I was-- I always loved pictures and I always loved, this is in the days before it digitized anything. And I would go to the Brooklyn Public Library all the time and look at photo books by Cartier-Bresson, Irving Penn, Avedon. And I was mentored by a man named Owen Dodson, who gave me a Rolleiflex. And there was a kid in my neighborhood who said, "Oh, I like taking pictures or whatever." And I gave it to him because that is who I was until yesterday. And I gave him the camera.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: And I became friends with a guy who was very protective of me in certain ways. And no, I was in my 20s, I guess early 20s. And a mutual friend said, "Oh, isn't that nice? Hilton gave X person the camera." And my friend said, "I haven't seen his byline-

Helga Davis: Mm.

Hilton Als: - on any photographs."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: I then become a picture editor at the Village Voice. So I'm nurturing all these photographers. I became close to a number of photographers. I nurture- hopefully, nurture them. And I would do pictures every once in a while, but I'd like lose the film or the camera was really junky and I couldn't get the battery to work. It wasn't until I got this, um, app on the iPhone for Polaroids that I remembered how much I loved Polaroids when I was a kid. And I used to take photographs and there's an album of pictures I took of my sister, who was my muse when I was a teenager.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And I stopped. Why did I stop?

Helga Davis: Why did you stop?

Hilton Als: I was taking up too much space. Right. I was taking up-- I wasn't oppressed enough.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Hilton Als: I was taking up too much space. Now, this doesn't just translate to work.

Helga Davis: Of course.

Hilton Als: It goes into love, right?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Why would I be with someone who would want me back?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Or why would I be with someone who, um, didn't put language where the love should be?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Why should I-- why wouldn't I be with those people? They can smell it on me.

Helga Davis: Right.

Hilton Als: They really can.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And the minute that funk is off you, there is a person who says, "I like you."

Helga Davis: You, right there.

Hilton Als: You.

Helga Davis: You exactly as you are. You.

Hilton Als: Or, and they say, "I miss you."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And they say, um, "I just want to be with you." Shockers, all of this. Shocking, shocking, shocking.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: So I am learning.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. Writer.

Hilton Als: The writing was always the thing that was mine because I could hide it. I started when I was eight years old before I even really read. I wrote things down, stories, voices, um--

Helga Davis: Writing as a way for you to learn to observe without being observed?

Hilton Als: That's right. I could put it in notebooks under my bed.

Helga Davis: Mm.

Hilton Als: The person I showed my writing to, uh, was my mother. And we never discussed it. I would leave a story on the dining room table for her and she would write her comments when I went to sleep in the morning. And then I'd read her comments and that was what we would discuss. Not in the way that we're having a chat now.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: We never talked about it. It was all through writing.

Helga Davis: So your mom was your first editor.

Hilton Als: Editor. That's right.

Helga Davis: I had no-- I didn't know that.

Hilton Als: Yes. So that's how I communicated with my mother about being an artist. I didn't say, I am an artist. I did it. So what you're bringing out today in this conversation was like, the doing was always the conversation for me.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And you've known this-- you've known this from work experiences with me. If someone talks about it too much or overthinks it, I'll just leave.

Helga Davis: You were so done.

Hilton Als: Uh, yeah.

Helga Davis: You were so done.

Hilton Als: Like 'cause that's not the process.

Helga Davis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hilton Als: The process is, I gave you the thin.

Helga Davis: Try stuff.

Hilton Als: Helga is flawless, but keep going. Don't worry about me.

Helga Davis: Right.

Hilton Als: Like, don't worry.

Helga Davis: Right.

Hilton Als: Don't be good. Be ruthless.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Hilton Als: - in making the most beautiful thing that you can do. And seeing that Thurston didn't have that struggle took a lot of anxiety away from me. I always-- I was always amazed by fiction writers because they were taking up the world, right? Like they could remake the world. I didn't know how to do that. But what I knew how to do was be as hard as it was to remain open to the experience of learning and thinking. And that's really, to go back to Frederick Douglass, that's what's so moving to me, is that despite this-- it's like Anne Frank, you know? Despite it all, I still believe people are-- no, he's not saying, "I believe people are good at heart." He's saying, "I believe I was good at heart."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Or that I had enough of myself to say, these words are important to learn, to understand my condition.

Helga Davis: And isn't that a big thing, to have enough of oneself?

Hilton Als: Yes. In that- in that-

Helga Davis: It's-it's not a small--

Hilton Als: Degradation and devastation, there's still that.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Hilton Als: So I'm learning. I used to be like, "Okay, you can't complain." And now I'm like, "Don't shut the fuck up."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Keep talking, keep saying I'm angry. It is constructive actually.

Helga Davis: Yes. And it makes the room safe.

Hilton Als: Yes.

Helga Davis: We think it makes people unsafe and afraid of us.

Hilton Als: Yes. I'm reading-- no wonder my head's so fucked up. I'm reading in tandem, William Faulkner stories.

Helga Davis: What's the matter with you?

Hilton Als: I'm losing my fucking mind. [laughter] I'm losing my mind. And his brilliance is to describe white hierarchies.

Helga Davis: Yes.

Hilton Als: Right?

Helga Davis: Yes.

Hilton Als: And so there's a story about these men going after a Black man to lynch him.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: And in that horror, he describes how whiteness plays against itself, how the power of whiteness plays-plays against itself. And so there is their hierarchy. And so the Black figure is there and kind of longed for as a place of safety and custodian of civility, right? And there's this enormous violence against themselves.

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Hilton Als: They're feeding on themselves.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Why wouldn't they feed on us-

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: -or the history of us being available to them in this way? His genius is to say it's so broken down and crazy. Um, let me show you how crazy it is in this language that is so crazy. It is not stream of consciousness. It is American.

Helga Davis: It is so American. And Faulkner is-is-- and Flannery O'Connor,-

Hilton Als: Oh my God.

Helga Davis: -are two authors I just, I had had the hardest time with because-

Hilton Als: Because of the truth-

Helga Davis: Hilton--

Hilton Als: - of their fracture.

Helga Davis: Exactly.

Hilton Als: Yeah.

Helga Davis: And because I see, and in the place in me that wants to blame, I cannot.

Hilton Als: No, don't.

Helga Davis: But I can't.

Hilton Als: Here's the thing, there's that story of hers. Everything that rises must converge.

Helga Davis: Yes.

Helga Davis: Where the white woman buys a hat and she says, "In this hat, I won't meet myself coming or going. She then meets a black woman on the bus post-segregation with the same hat-

Helga Davis: Same hat.

Hilton Als: -who-- and the white woman? And what she feels is a gesture of the new white civility gives the little boy a penny. The black woman knocks her the fuck down.

Helga Davis: [laughs]

Hilton Als: Her son says, "Don't do it." She does it. The woman knocks her down. This is the truth of what has happened and will always keep happening if you insist, as James Baldwin says, if you insist on being white. I'm going to have to insist on being black.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. Professor.

Hilton Als: I think it's just wrapped up in the gorgeousness of access. What universities give you is a tremendous gift and the gift is access to students, to this vulnerability and ability to listen and to learn humanity.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: Learn the history of humanity, and learn how to be humane in your actions, thoughts, and deeds as artists. I teach in the arts program at Columbia. And what is amazing about Columbia is that it gives each kid context that there is a history to this. And that's what I give them is the wind-window onto history. That there is a context for this thing that interests you.

Helga Davis: Hmm.

Hilton Als: That there is an important relationship. Just as I'm learning about my relationship to Frederick Douglass, they're learning about their relationship to Jean Luc Godard, Buford Delany, Roland Barthes, James Baldwin. They're learning how are we-- what are the ways in which we are not separate?

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: What are the ways in which we are like each other?

Helga Davis: Does that feel like a very important thing to you even-even as you--? [crosstalk]

Hilton Als: Enormous 'cause it's part of the art I think.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Hilton Als: It's part of the art and it's also something that really is teaching me. Um, something about how to be connected to other people, um, outside of my ego, outside of my ego needs, right? There's our art needs as artists and there's our personal needs for companionship, love, whatever. But it's outside of that. It's outside of my psychoanalysis, it's outside of all of that. It's out-- it really is in the greater service of something else. It's like praying in a way. You're going to meet people that you pray with.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Hilton Als: Um.

Helga Davis: I get that.

Hilton Als: Yeah.

Helga Davis: Author.

Hilton Als: That goes back to the-- that's a very interesting thing. I've just left my publisher, um, who published White Girls. And I didn't feel I was moving forward as a book author. Um, I was afraid of books because they were permanent. And I had the trauma of publishing my first book and having a lot of acrimony from my family about it. Despite the fact that I was loving my sisters in that book, there was, except for one sister whom you know, about, um, uniform league-- uniform criticism about what I'd written, which then traumatized me because it was hard enough as we know, to get out there. And of course, I deserved the trauma. I shut-- this is what I mean by not writing.

Helga Davis: Yes.

Hilton Als: And it was through writing White Girls and being independent and being with an independent publisher that I started to get it back. And I don't know, I think it's leading to a lot of things 'cause I have a bunch of projects that I'm finishing up. And so I think it's a new phase that maybe incorporates all this stuff, right? The teaching and photos. And they might just be between hard covers and people can grab it without having to, uh, ask me to send it [laughter] you know. They can get it themselves. That's great.

Helga Davis: Is there anything else you feel that-that we haven't talked about? So that's one question. And then the second question and the final question is-is there a question that you would like to ask of another artist for Season 2? It doesn't matter who the artist is.

Hilton Als: Okay.

Helga Davis: But anything about-about, uh, creativity, creative process, whatever?

Hilton Als: I think- I think two things. I think because you are so good at this job as you are at all the jobs I've seen you in, no, I don't feel that you have not asked me-

Helga Davis: Okay.

Hilton Als: -um, everything. Um, Season 2, my hope is for you. The question would be for you, which is why not? That's my question for you. So when you feel haltingly or when you're going to stop, just remember Hilton. The question for Hilton is, why not Helga? Why not? That's it.

Helga Davis: Thank you.

Hilton Als: Thank you, Helga. [chuckles]

[music]

Helga Davis: We are at our 10th and final episode for Season 1. Wow. [laughs] I don't-- I think I don't know how to do this without getting a little bit corny and thanking all the people who came and sat across from me and spoke openly from their hearts about their experiences, about their lives, and about what connects all of us. This was always my-my hope for this work to be an extension of a creative conversation that I was already having with myself and with the world and with my guests. And to continue to bring healing and clarity and connection between you and you and you and me. Though we're done recording the season, we aren't done with the conversation.

You can still contact me @helgawqxr.org or reach out to me on Facebook. And so before I go, I leave you, I leave myself really with the question that Hilton Als left me with for Season 2, which was, why not? When we are feeling that none of this world makes sense, that we are somehow the only ones feeling what we're feeling or doing what we're doing there is the question about how to move forward, which is why not? That's certainly the question that we will be undertaking for Season 2. Yeah, why not? Here we go. Thank you for Season 1.

[music]

Speaker: This episode of Helga was produced by Julia Allsop and executive producer Alex Ambrose. It was mixed by Curtis McDonald and original music by Alex Overington. Alex Overington. Special thanks to Cindy Kim, Lorraine Maddox, Michael Alcester, Jacqueline Sincada, and John Chow.

 

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