Tiffany Hansen: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Tiffany Hansen, filling in for Brian who is off today. We're going to take a little bit of a lighter turn now. We're going to talk about manspreading, nail clipping, music blasting through phones, speakers. We're talking, of course, about subway etiquette. People have always acted inappropriately on New York subways. I think that's fairly accurate. There are even Instagram accounts who are dedicated to the fact that people act inappropriately on subways.

Since ridership has returned to near pre-pandemic levels, it seems like some of us may have forgotten how to coexist courteously on the country's largest mass transit system. Listeners, I know you have thoughts. We would love to hear them. 212-433-9692. Have you seen the MTA's new little placards in the subways that say, "Courtesy counts. Don't be somebody's subway story"? Tell us your subway story. 212-433-9692. You can call us, you can text us. Joining us to talk about all of it is Ana Ley from The New York Times, who wrote the unwritten rules of riding the New York City subway. Good morning, Ana.

Ana Ley: Good morning.

Tiffany Hansen: All right. I think we have a sense now that ridership, whether we talk about specific numbers or not, ridership is on the way back up. We're getting a little more crowded. We're in each other's spaces a little bit more. Do we have a sense, other than anecdotally, is behavior any better or worse than it was pre-pandemic, during the pandemic?

Ana Ley: Well, I think you have more people, so naturally there's going to be more bad behavior. There are today about 4 million people riding the subway on any given weekday roughly. That's a lot of people. It's not quite as many as there were before the pandemic, around five and a half million, but that's still the size of some American states. That's quite a lot of people packing into a very, very, very tiny space in the city. Everyone's trying to get somewhere, and sometimes tensions can flare when people are in a rush.

Tiffany Hansen: Well, it's not just an issue of you and I are standing too close to each other. It's a little bit of a personal decision. I'm going to put my bag on the seat next to me so nobody can sit next to me. I'm going to put my feet up so that nobody can sit in these seats. I'm going to, I don't know, clip my toenails. Bleurgh. It's also a personal decision. I'm wondering, was there something about the pandemic that gave people license to behave badly or more badly than before?

Ana Ley: I think some people might say that. Maybe everyone got used to being in their own space, and all of a sudden, we're around strangers, and everyone wants to be comfortable. I think another factor here is that a lot of people forgot the rules, and at the same time that they're relearning them. People that move to the city have not been able to learn gradually by observing people that have lived here longer, and so everyone's learning at the same time. There tends to be chaos sometimes.

Tiffany Hansen: Well, one of the things that came out of the pandemic is more pet ownership.

Ana Ley: Correct.

Tiffany Hansen: We have pets on the subway. I'm a dog owner, I'm a dog lover. I try not to assume that everyone loves dogs as much as I do and that not everyone wants to say hello to my dog in the way that I do, but we see a lot of bad behavior, specifically around pets. Before we get too far, I want to take a caller on this. We're going to go to Cue in Bronx. Good morning. You're on The Brian Lehrer Show.

Cue: Hi. Good morning. Thanks for taking my call. First thing, I'm a native New Yorker, and I will always ride the subway regardless of this high crime or not. That said and two things. One is the pet thing. As a native New Yorker and someone over 40, I feel like there's been this new thing and even prior to the pandemic of people bringing in pets in the subway. As a native New Yorker, I know that pets are not allowed in the subway unless they're in a carrier.

I've seen dogs that are too big for carriers, of course, in the subway, on the trains taking up space, and then people with smaller dogs, maybe not in the carrier, having their dogs lounge on the seats, and that's not cool. The second thing besides the dog thing is bicycles and mopeds. I have lots of friends who ride bicycles, and for the most part, when they're riding their bicycles, they're not taking the subway. They don't take it onto the subway system. Those who need to take it for work, maybe they're delivery workers.

I think the MTA, hopefully Janno Lieber is listening, perhaps you have a separate car for bicycles so that they don't take up lots of room, especially during rush hour. Then mopeds, mopeds shouldn't even be on the system, but I've seen lots of mopeds on the system in the elevators. With the increase of pets, I see more feces. Of course, there's human feces for those who are living in the subway, but those are things that I think the MTA should address, and they don't seem to. Also, Citi Bikes. They're not in charge of Citi Bikes, but I don't even see why are Citi Bikes on trains. So many times, I've seen Citi Bikes on the train.

Tiffany Hansen: Cue, thank you for that. We also have a couple of texts here, Ana, before we get your reaction to this. Someone says, "I haven't seen any Courtesy Counts signs in years." I saw them today on my way in. Standing in front of doors, slowing the exit and entry. We can tick that on the list. "Buy some earbuds," [unintelligible 00:06:13]. New phones don't use the same plugin, people watching downloads at full volume, these are all complaints that we've heard. You said there may be a little bit of a difference. People got used to being by themselves, but when you're blasting your music, you got to know that everybody's listening.

Ana Ley: Well, frankly, it's annoying for other people, but it's also dangerous. What if there's a subway announcement? What if there's an emergency? There's already so much noise in the system, and you're just adding to it needlessly.

Tiffany Hansen: The bike issue that Cue mentioned. I've been next to an e-bike. There's an off-gassing smell to some of those electrical bikes. It's not just about the physical space the bike takes up, you're affecting the whole car at a certain point.

Ana Ley: Yes. I think there are a lot of frustrations around bikes. I think for people who have them, I think you just really have to be mindful that these are big things that you're introducing into the system, and there are some rules around charging some of these electric devices in there. You're not supposed to do that. One of the ads, actually, is about that. I think a lot of it just comes down to just be considerate. Just make sure other people are comfortable.

Tiffany Hansen: Well, you and I both mentioned those ads. What do you think about those ads?

Ana Ley: Well, I talked to some people who were glad. This isn't the first time that the MTA has done this. For people who have lived in the city for a long time, they might remember this campaign they had where they were giving buttons to women who are pregnant so that people could give them their seat, if they could give up their seat for them. Then, of course, there was the manspreading campaign.

Tiffany Hansen: It's real.

Ana Ley: Yes. [laughs] I saw it the other day. I think some people are glad that there's these little nudges in the system. One person that I quoted in the story that ran has called it foolishness and said, "People are just not going to obey the rules." It's hard to gauge how effective these things are because a lot of these things are not-- they're not formal rules. They're just etiquette.

Tiffany Hansen: Ana, I want to take another call here. Sheri in Chelsea. Good morning, Sheri. Welcome to The Brian Lehrer Show.

Shari: Hi. My name is Shari. Good morning and hope you're well.

Tiffany Hansen: Sorry about that.

Shari: That's okay. I have a long list. My list actually stems from people who don't drive. People who've never driven don't understand the rules of the road. You walk on the right-hand side. You don't sit on stairs because it's blocking an exit ramp or an entrance ramp. You don't stand in front of the train doors because people can't get off. If you let people off first, there's more room for you. That's one of those common sense things that people miss.

Now, I see the subway system has not had No Smoking signs in a long time. They need to put them back because I see people smoking and vaping on the trains every single day.

Tiffany Hansen: Thank you. Thank you for that. I agree. I see it also. Thanks for the call. I want to address the getting on and off trains. We hear the overhead announcements.

Ana Ley: Yes. That's a pretty basic rule. I think if you don't know that one, you probably don't know many others because that's a pretty fundamental law of the subway.

Tiffany Hansen: I wonder if there's a sense that at some point during the pandemic, we just lost that ability to emulate what others around us are doing.

Ana Ley: Absolutely. I spoke with a professor at NYU, Jay Van Bavel, who basically described it as osmosis. You observe others and you follow the pack.

Tiffany Hansen: Right. I want to take Janet in Manhattan now. Good morning, Janet.

Janet: Good morning.

Tiffany Hansen: You have something specific about backpacks, which we haven't touched on.

Janet: I do, I do. They always say, take your backpack off. I'm not going to put my backpack on the floor of the subway, I'm sorry. If you wear them in the front, you don't get in anyone's way. If you're standing above people seated, you're not banging into them. No one goes up close, really front in the subway, so you're not really taking up much space. It would be much better if you'd still wear backpacks on the front. One more thing if you have time.

Tiffany Hansen: Sure.

Janet: The conductors, when we are in the station, should very firmly state, "Do not stand on the doors," because sometimes they don't and people stand there. Then if they did say that you pushed somebody inside, they'd say, "Oh, excuse me. You're not supposed to be here."

Tiffany Hansen: Standing in the doors, Ana, that's just a danger for yourself also.

Ana Ley: Yes. Again, I think there are pretty frequent reminders in the system for people, at least audio reminders, to not do that.

Tiffany Hansen: I wonder if we're going to see any improvement. Do you see any light at the end of this subway tunnel?

Ana Ley: I actually do. I think that, eventually, the system will regulate. As everyone starts to recover from the worst of the pandemic, there was almost no ridership at its worse. Of course, that took a hit on how we behave around one another, but I do think it'll return to normalcy eventually. There have been some benefits that I think have come out of it too.

Tiffany Hansen: In our last 30 seconds, what advice would you give somebody when they see bad behavior happening?

Ana Ley: I would say that tensions can flare pretty rapidly in a place that's so packed and where people again are rushing and sometimes not in a great mood, and so I would just be very cautious.

Tiffany Hansen: Yes, put the phone down. Don't take pictures of people doing bad things. Bad things is relative. Somebody wearing a giant costume that gets in your way is one thing, but smoking next to a woman who's pregnant is another. Right?

Ana Ley: Yes. Harassing someone, that probably would require something more forceful. You don't want to just let someone get harassed next to you. That's, I think, different. If someone is, I don't know, eating a smelly piece of cheese, then it's like, "Well, that's annoying." [chuckles]

Tiffany Hansen: You're optimistic?

Ana Ley: Yes, I think so.

Tiffany Hansen: You're still optimistic. All right, good. That's good to hear. All right. Thank you so much. Ana Ley is a reporter with The New York Times, and she's been talking about subway etiquette with us today. Thank you so much for your time.

Ana Ley: Thank you.

Tiffany Hansen: I'm Tiffany Hansen. I've been filling in for Brian, but Brian's producers are Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Our intern this fall is Muskan Nagpal. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen takes care of our podcast. Meg Ryan is the head of live radio. Shayna Sengstock and Milton Ruiz are at the audio controls. Brian will be back on Monday. I'm Tiffany Hansen. Have a good weekend, and enjoy your day off for Veterans Day today. Thanks so much.

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