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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Atlantic staff writer, Katherine Wu, normally writes about science. She's been on this show a number of times over the last few years to talk about COVID, for example. Today, though, we'll speak with Katherine about something much different, the bonds between people and their pets, the topic of a recent piece of hers in The Atlantic. We'll dwell on one relevant question. Is your pet your family? To take it even further, is your pet your child?

Katherine writes, "The bonds humans forge with animals can feel as strong as the ones we make with each other." The question is how much validation those relationships should get. Katherine Wu joins me now. Hi, Katherine. Welcome back to WNYC.

Katherine Wu: Hi. Always good to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, where do you stand on the question? Are you a pet parent? You can tell any story. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, call or text. Why do you raise the question about how much validation those relationships should get? Shouldn't a pet be considered a member of the family and get maximum validation?

Katherine Wu: I admit that the genesis of this piece was maybe a little more selfish than the genesis of some of my other pieces. I think I just spent a little bit of time wondering why I got so much flack sometimes from friends and family when I would go out of my way to accommodate my own cats. If I would leave dinner parties early to go home and be with them. If I would fuss over when they were going to get their meds. If I would think about, "Oh, I can't be out of the country for this long because I need to be around for these two little creatures that depend on me."

A lot of people were just very skeptical, sometimes even mocking. I wondered, why is this? Why do people react so strongly, even sometimes with a little bit of disdain? Is there something more going on here? Is it about just, "Hey, we shouldn't treat other animals as we do humans? Is there something maybe a little extra sacred about the parent-child bond that these people feel like is being violated?" I wanted to dig into it and see if what I was feeling was more common.

Brian Lehrer: I'll let the listeners in on the fact that you being you, your cats are named Calvin and Hobbes.

Katherine Wu: That's right.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have an example of parenting, if I could use that word, Calvin and Hobbes in ways that might go above and beyond how some other people relate to their cats?

Katherine Wu: Yes. I'll admit, I don't think I am necessarily on the farthest end of the far end here, but I can certainly relate. I think for me personally, one of my cats, Hobbes, is a nervous weirdo. He's afraid of food, of all things. We have to have everything completely quiet when we feed him. I sit down and I will put his food on his plate, and everyone else in the house has to pause what they're doing. If he hears a butterfly flap its wings a mile away, he will stop eating and just run away. [laughter] We usually have to tell people if they're over, please just chill out, sit where you are for a second.

It can be a little annoying and off-putting to them, but it's one of those things. I got to make sure my cat eats otherwise he's just not going to do it.

Brian Lehrer: Brendan in Kendall Park in Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Brendan.

Brendan: Hi. Hey, Brian. It's nice to hear from you. I recently lost my two beagles in a divorce, and the loss is crushing. I feel like I can't see my children. It feels like there's nothing that can solve this ache that I feel. I used to sleep with my dogs and-

Brian Lehrer: Too much information.

Brendan: -I haven't seen them in six months.

Brian Lehrer: Just kidding. I hear the pain in your voice, Brendan. It's really, really terrible. How does that go if you're comfortable saying, in a divorce proceeding? Was it contentious in court as to who got custody of the pets?

Brendan: No. I felt that-

Brian Lehrer: Your ex should have them.

Brendan: -my wife could probably take better care of the dogs due to just that I wasn't able to secure stable housing.

Brian Lehrer: But you're experiencing grief.

Brendan: Yes, I would say profound grief.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for sharing. What a sad story, Katherine. I don't even know what my question is, but what a sad story, and we hear it in his voice.

Katherine Wu: Yes. It makes so much sense. I think there is this gut reaction when people are separated from their pets or when pets die. People are like, "Oh, just get another one," but it seems to trivialize the relationship that was there. For a lot of people, you can know more easily replace a beloved companion like a dog than you can replace a spouse, even a child, a sibling that you grew up with.

For some people they see their pets more than their spouses, especially if they work from home, especially if they have this incredibly close relationship where there's the dependence on when they go outside to go to the bathroom, when they eat, when they sleep, where they sleep. It is this huge hole that is left behind when that is taken away from you.

Brian Lehrer: Suzy in the village, you're on WNYC. Hi, Suzy.

Suzy: Oh, hi. Well, I have a somewhat more cheerful story.

Brian Lehrer: Good.

Suzy: I bought my dog, a co-op and a car. I had a big furry dog. My building went co-op. I thought no place else in the world is ever going to take this dog. I bought the apartment for the dog. There's no other way to get her around than to have a car. Whatever pain it is, I have a car in the city for my dog. A previous dog had developed breast cancer when I was in grad school. I had no money. Took her to the Animal Medical Center, took out a new credit card just for dog treatment. Yes, my pets are absolutely family members. They get exactly the same care any other member of my family would get.

Brian Lehrer: Suzy, thank you. Thank you very much for sharing that story. Here's another one. Justina in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Justina.

Justina: Hi. I am a cat lady, but I have always been, ever since I was a kid, so I don't really like people making that stereotype about a girl or a woman being not married, which I'm not. Yes, I have always loved cats and I have a couple right now. What I wanted to point out is a friend of mine who always looked funny at me whenever I was telling her story about my cats, she ended up with two dogs when COVID hit. Guess what? Now she's the one not being able not to talk about her dogs, and she cries whenever she has to leave town.

My point is, they are our family. You just have to try adopt one, bring one from a shelter, and you'll see how big a love it brings out of you.

Brian Lehrer: I hear the love in your voice just as I heard the grief in Brendan's voice. Katherine, you write in your article that people have never been this obsessed with their cats. What's changed?

Katherine Wu: I think there's a lot that has changed. I think there are some big sociocultural shifts. Also, just people are more willing to come forward with these sorts of feelings. I certainly don't want to deny that people have had very close relationships with animals since the beginning of human history, but modern living, especially in the Western world, has made that easier.

We've also, in recent decades, really opened up what it means to be a family. I think there was so very much this prevalent stereotype of a, "Family should be a mother, a father, 2.5 kids inside of a white picket fence." We, of course, know that that doesn't have to be the case. There are blended families. There are divorced families. There are families with many, many parents, with single parents, with no kids at all. Pets have entered that picture as well.

As soon as we loosen the definitions of family, it becomes very clear that there are set roles that have to be filled. It just matters that you are having these meaningful, reciprocal relationships with another living creature.

Brian Lehrer: When I cited the line from your reporting in the intro- let me go back and find it so I say it exactly right- you wrote, "The question is how much validation those relationships should get." I think Robin in West Harlem had a reaction to that. Robin, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Robin: Hi. Thanks. I strongly object to this idea of "should." Should we have this much care for animals? Should we show this much love? Who's evaluating the quantity that is appropriate or not? Who's saying, this much love is good, that much love is bad? That's what's gotten us into trouble as a species in the first place, that humans are more valuable, humans are at the top of the hierarchy. Yes, I really object to the "should."

Brian Lehrer: Katherine?

Robin: That's all.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Robin.

Katherine Wu: Yes, sure. My goal is not to prescribe how much people should love their pets or anything else in their lives, whether it is a human family member, a car, their job. The "should" is actually more about if people do have certain kinds of relationships with their pets, is that something that society should or should not criticize, that society should or should not have, I guess, jurisdiction over?

I think this is reflected in a lot of things. Policies. Do we give bereavement leave when someone loses a human family member as well as when they lose a pet? Do we give leave when someone adopts a new puppy and is maybe losing a lot of sleep potty training them at night? I think these things are coded into a hierarchy right now. Is that correct? Definitely not about whether or not people should care for their animals a certain amount. I think whatever people want to do is fine, but hopefully, the rest of society sees it that way however much or however little people want to give to the members of their family.

Brian Lehrer: We haven't even talked about service animals yet, which suggests a special relationship, but Clyde in Kingston is going to. Clyde, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Clyde: Yes, hello. I have a service animal by the name of Trigonometry.

Katherine Wu: Great name.

Clyde: He is extremely good at racquetball. As a matter of fact, I've never won a game. He can shoot the ball across two or three walls without any problems. I've never seen a dog that actually shoots the ball. Not only chases it, but also catches it and shoots it. I share my meals with him. He eats human meal. Occasionally, a little bit of dry dog food, which I think might be very reason why there's so much cancer in dogs. One of the differences between humans and dogs is that dogs [unintelligible 00:12:23] dog food, and humans don't. He's been potty trained to go to the bathroom, in the shower, or the bathtub, depending upon because, as has happened, when I'm in the hospital and I can't walk him, and it doesn't make sense for someone to drive two hours to find him and walk him for 20 minutes.

Brian Lehrer: Clyde, can I ask? Is the fact that your dog is a service animal, do you think that makes your relationship with a dog different than other people and their relationships with pets that are not service animals? I realized it's a general [inaudible 00:13:01]?

Clyde: Absolutely not.

Brian Lehrer: No.

Clyde: Absolutely not. I think that people who need dogs need dogs, and I don't think they should be deprived of them because they're not service animals.

Brian Lehrer: Clyde, thank you. Thank you very much. Wow. Another super-close relationship. Heartfelt story. Anything you were thinking listening to Clyde? I think he's got to up his racquetball game, Clyde, but other than that--

Katherine Wu: Yes. I think what is really important to point out there is a lot of the times, maybe a more typical relationship that people have with their pets is this is an outlet for them to perform caregiving. I feed my dog, I take my dog to the vet, I make sure that my cat is brushed, so on and so forth.

It's also so important to highlight what animals can do for us in professional roles and also more casual roles. There's research showing that a lot of human-animal relationships can lower distress, can improve well-being. Just look at how many people got comfort from their animals during the absolute worst of the pandemic. Of course, those relationships have been formalized with service animals. That is really important. It really can be incredibly bi-directional. Sometimes I don't think we appreciate that as much.

Brian Lehrer: A listener texts, "Please stress the importance of pet insurance. When those family members get older and infirm, it can be heartbreaking and financially ruinous to care for cancer and heart ailments." We're going to run out of time, but thinking about Clyde's call and all the things that he was saying his dog can do, let me squeeze in one more question that's actually based on another pet essay that you wrote recently. The essay is about the evolutionary phenomenon of cats who fetch. Really? There are cats who fetch?

Katherine Wu: Oh, yes. I've got one right next to me, actually. Looks like he would enjoy a good ball toss. I think this is a very underappreciated phenomenon. There are studies that show that a decent percentage of cats do this, and it doesn't seem to be something that people are deliberately teaching kittens. A lot of them just do it naturally. Think about it. It's a natural hunting instinct. Cats also figure out, "Hey, if I bring this thing back to my human, it's going to get tossed again, and I can chase it again. That's awesome."

Brian Lehrer: That's awesome. You did that so efficiently that we're going to squeeze in Emily in Yonkers. Emily, we've got 30 seconds for you. Hi.

Emily: Hi, Brian. First-time, long-time. I just want to say that I am a big animal lover. I've been vegetarian for 24 years because I grew up on a farm, and animals have always been family to me. I just wanted to also plug the angle that I work with children who have very high complex medical needs, and many of them are not speaking. When I see the certified animals that can come into the center to visit, the means of connection that don't require words, it's just so moving. I just wanted to say I think, yes, it's very important.

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Brian Lehrer: An important [crosstalk] make them accessible to people in that situation. Emily, thank you. Nice call for the final words as we thank Katherine Wu, staff writer at The Atlantic who raised all this in her recent article. Katherine, thanks.

Katherine Wu: Yes, always good to be here. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer Show produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. [unintelligible 00:16:44] Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily politics podcast. Stay tuned for Alison.

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