[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. We're going to talk now about Yonkers. Yes, Yonkers. Many of you may consider Yonkers just that place that you have to drive through on the deacon getting from points in the city to points further north or the other way around or whatever, but Yonkers is the third largest city in New York state. Did you know that? Behind New York City and Buffalo. There's stuff going on.

Leading up to the midterm elections, you know that we spent a week of our 30 Issues in 30 Days series on the issue of democracy in peril. Actually, we spent two weeks, 10 of the 30 issues on democracy in peril, because overwhelmingly, listeners of all age groups who called in when we did a pre-series, what do you want us to talk about thing, stated that threats to democracy were your biggest concerns leading up to the midterm elections. That, of course, was about democracy in America.

Some residents of Yonkers, New York's third largest city, would probably argue that this may not rise to the level of Trump's big lie, but there is a threat to democracy close to home and coming from inside their local government. In Yonkers, the city council is looking to extend term limits for themselves, and the mayor, Mike Spano. Currently, Yonkers elected officials can serve three, four-year terms. That's a lot already for a lot of places. They're looking to push that to four terms or 16 years. This comes just four years after the city council and mayor made the same move to increase term limits from two terms to three, that was just in 2018.

Let's talk about this. Let's talk about term limits in general which some people consider usually a political volley from the right, but sometimes it's something else. With us now to discuss the battle over term limits in what some people call New York's Sixth borough, is Tax Watch columnist, David McKay Wilson from The Journal News, which covers Westchester and Rockland. If you follow them online, the site is lohud, for Lower Hudson Valley. Hey David, welcome to WNYC.

David McKay Wilson: Glad to be here, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Yonkers residents, this call-in is for you. Do you support or oppose the city council's proposal to increase term limits for themselves and the mayor? Because we haven't ever, I don't think, done a Yonkers-specific segment before, what else do you want to say about life of politics in Yonkers if you live there or even work there? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. What should listeners outside of Yonkers know about your city's political culture or anything else? Help us report this story. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. David, this is breaking news because last night, the rules committee of Yonkers held a public meeting regarding their proposal to increase term limits. What happened?

David McKay Wilson: There was a proposal to send it to committee and then with the possibility of holding a citywide referendum on making the change, but they could only get three votes for that. They needed four. Now it will go directly to the council. They're going to have a public hearing on it next Monday, and they plan to vote on Tuesday. This is moving very rapidly. The political calendar calls for it to move rapidly because next year's nominee process begins in February or so. With all the petitions in March and all that, they need to move quickly on it if the mayor, Mike Spano, is going to get a shot to run for a fourth.

Brian Lehrer: Before we even get into term limits pro and con and whose interests are really being pursued here with this proposal to extend term limits to four terms, give us a little background on why there are term limits in Yonkers in the first place, and the timing of this. Actually, let's talk about the timing first. I feel like this is just a gut reaction. You tell me as a reporter if there's anything to it, but it seems to me that the political world in Yonkers as anywhere is distracted right now by digesting the national election, and all of a sudden, this is when they're trying to get an extension of term limits for themselves. Do you have anything to say about the timing?

David McKay Wilson: I don't know if it's related to anything national, but the timing is related to the political calendar in Yonkers. The same thing happened in 2018 when Mike Spano, who was the son of a big Yonkers political family, his father was Westchester County clerk, his brother Nick Spano, a very powerful state senator for many years in the Republican caucus. Mike was a Republican, switched to Democrat when he was in the state assembly. Mike is popular, he's done a lot for the city, he's happened when his second turn was up. City council amended the term limits, now his third is up and the same thing is happening. It's more of a local response. I don't think the national is really involved in this.

Brian Lehrer: I was just thinking maybe they're trying to sneak this through while the news media is distracted and the public is distracted by other bigger electoral concerns. Tell us a little bit about Yonkers's history of term limits. When were they first enacted and how?

David McKay Wilson: They were first enacted in 1994. There was a citywide referendum and it passed. It was a way to open up the political process to allow a turnover in council members that came as the city was emerging from its desegregation case, the federal desegregation case. It wasn't over at the time, but there was a lot of political turmoil in Yonkers during those years. Then in 2001, there was an attempt to repeal the term limits. That actually went to a referendum and it lost by two to one, so term limits were in place.

When the mayor proceeding Mike Spano ended his second term, he didn't seek to extend the term limits. He accepted what the law was, went on to something else, opened the door for Mike Spano to run for mayor because of term limits.

[laughter]

Then when Mike got to the end of his second, he was like, "Mm, I think I'd like another." Now here we are, four years later, and he is like, "Mm, I got more to do."

Brian Lehrer: Another and another. This was enacted in the first place by a vote of the voters, but then just city council on its own extended it from two terms to three, and now city council again on its own may extend it from three to four.

David McKay Wilson: That's correct. It's looking like it's lined up right now. There's only three of the members, these two up-and-coming women of color on the council. Shanae Williams, who ran for city county clerk last year, ran a primary, almost beat the longtime incumbent in Westchester in a countywide race. She came very close to beating him. She's in her late 20s, and Corazon Pineda-Isaac, also on the council. They're two of the three who are saying should go to a referendum, but it's only three out of seven. You need four.

Brian Lehrer: Let's see. I don't think Kevin and Yonkers likes this extended term limits idea very much. Kevin, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Kevin: Yes. In terms of Mike Spano, I have nothing bad to say about what he's been doing. I think he's been doing some good stuff for Yonkers and he's had a good time in office. That said, when you make it something that's a part of the law and-- I don't think it's good. I really don't think it's good. It's like Bloomberg in New York, he wanted to extend his time. He says, "Oh, we'll leave it up to the voters."

I think when term limits are in discussion, it should be something voted on by the people. I don't think city council should have the power to extend anybody's term limits or extend term limits for city council members or whoever. I think something that important should come before the voters. I think it should be something taken up at times of elections, or if they want to, have a special election.

This is the thing, we have term limits, we have discussions of term limits. There's not going to be a whole lot of pushback, probably, with Mike Spano wanting to extend his term to another four years because he's been doing a good job. There are a lot of things happening, a lot of building, a lot of things that he's brought to Yonkers. He's been a good mayor.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: You don't want to see term limits extended by City Council. Kevin, thank you very much. What an interesting call, David, because here's somebody who sounds like he's a pretty big fan of Mayor Spano, and yet, he doesn't want to extend those rules without a public referendum.

David McKay Wilson: Well, I think people have been generally laudatory of the job Mike Spano has done in Yonkers, bringing development, high-rise housing to the waterfront, affordable housing he's brought in, the Lionsgate Studios now in an old factory building in downtown Yonkers, the revealing of the Saw Mill River through downtown. He's done great things for the city, but there is a sense of, "Come on, when's this going to end?"

Brian Lehrer: Here's Dean in Astoria, who's originally from Yonkers. Dean, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Dean: Oh, hello, Brian. Thank you. Long-time listener. Yes, I'm originally from Yonkers. I grew up in the '70s there. Actually, term limits, as a kid, the only mayor I knew was Mayor Martinelli. It seems like he was always getting re-elected and everything. Also, the Spanos have been involved in Yonkers politics for a very long time. I'm a musician as well. I just did a gig up there, by the waterfront. I live in Astoria now. I was actually quite amazed by the way the waterfront has changed. Whatever he's doing up there, Nick Spano, is-

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Looks good to you.

[crosstalk]

You wanted to say something about corruption, right?

Dean: Absolutely. Well, actually, my parents were very involved in Yonkers politics in the '70s. I don't know if you saw that-- There was this show, Show Me a Hero-

Brian Lehrer: I did not.

Dean: -with Wasicsko. No. Well, anyway, it's been notoriously a corrupt-- Especially growing up in Southwest Yonkers at that time. Whether they were Democrats or Republicans didn't matter. They basically forgot the downtown area and moved all their resources to the north and the east. Actually, the Spanos--

Brian Lehrer: Meaning the wealthier, more single-family home areas of Yonkers?

Dean: Oh, yes, absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: Dean, I'm going to move on for time. Thank you very much. Please call us again. Corruption big problem in the city, David?

David McKay Wilson: There has been corruption there over the years. It's not a major issue currently. There's always questions about politics, patronage, but actual corruption today, there's no cases currently pending. I can't say that it's a-- There's always talk of it, but then you say, "Okay, well, what's corrupt?" "Well, somebody told me such and such."

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us. We're talking about Yonkers, the third largest city in New York state, which happens to be right north of the Bronx, if you're not from there, or if life, for you, ends at other kinds of geographical boundaries. Yonkers is the third largest city in the state, just north of New York, sometimes called the sixth borough. We're talking about the political battle taking place right now in Yonkers to extend term limits from three four-year terms to four for City Council and Mayor Mike Spano with David McKay Wilson from The Journal News or lohud.com online, Lohud for Lower Hudson Valley.

At last night's rules meeting, a number of political groups rallied together to oppose increasing term limits. We have with us now the president of the Westchester Women's Black Caucus, Subomi Macaulay. Subomi, thanks for giving us a few minutes. Welcome to WNYC. Do we have Subomi?

Subomi Macaulay: Yes, this is Subomi.

Brian Lehrer: Now we have you.

Subomi Macaulay: It's a pleasure to be on your show this morning. I live in Yonkers, New York, the third largest city in New York state. I was at the rules committee meeting last night, and I am extremely disappointed because democracy is for the people, by the people. Seven members of the Yonkers City Council and the mayor cannot be allowed to make a decision that affects the 216,000 people that call Yonkers home.

Brian Lehrer: Looking at the list of groups that signed on to the press advisory that you all released, this is really the Yonkers progressive community, this is the Yonkers NAACP, this is Indivisible Westchester, this is the Lower Hudson Valley Democratic Socialists of America, this is the Yonkers Sanctuary Movement, this is Community Voices Heard, as well as your group, the Westchester Women's Black Caucus. Why do you think those are the groups that are most organized to oppose the extension of term limits?

Subomi Macaulay: We are the marginalized group. We are the residents of the City of Yonkers. We are the people who are not allowed to come to the table to make decisions that affect our lives. It is really important to note that term limits are in place for a purpose. No one should be allowed to change term limits to suit their purpose because, then, it becomes a dictatorship, and absolute power corrupts.

Brian Lehrer: Subomi, I notice also that Congressman Jamaal Bowman, who represents Yonkers as well as other places in Westchester, also voiced opposition to this extension of term limits. What's the dynamic between Congressman Bowman and Mayor Spano as you see it?

Subomi Macaulay: I think we are all working together for the interest of a better Yonkers for everyone. That is really built on the platform that democracy is for the people, by the people, about the people. You cannot allow City Council and the mayor to change laws when it suits their purpose because, then, it's changed from a democracy to a dictatorship. I cannot speak on the relationship on Mayor Mike Spano and Congressman Jamaal Bowman, I would let them speak on their behalf, but I know that we are all collectively working for a better Yonkers for every resident of the great city of Yonkers, not just a few upper-class people but every single resident of the great city of Yonkers.

Brian Lehrer: Subomi Macaulay, who is the president of the Westchester Women's Black Caucus, thank you for giving us a few minutes. We really appreciate it.

Subomi Macaulay: You're welcome. Have a good day.

Brian Lehrer: David from Lohud, it's interesting to me that it is all those progressive groups who have coalesced around the opposition to extending term limits. I would have guessed that Republicans would be in the lead because it's a pretty entrenched Democratic City Council and Spano's a Democratic mayor, and it's been, at other times, in American history and in New York City history, that's a little place just below Yonkers, in case you don't know it, it was a Ron Lauder-Rudy Giuliani initiative back in the '90s to try to weaken entrenched Democratic party control, it was a Newt Gingrich initiative in the '90s, though it didn't succeed, to try to get term limits for Congress after 40 years of Democratic control of the House. I would've thought that Republicans would also be very much behind this, or are they, and I'm just missing that piece?

David McKay Wilson: Well, there's one member of the council, Anthony Merante, a Republican who was joined with Shanae Williams, and calls on Pineda Isaac in favor of a referendum. However, there's another Republican member of the council, Mike Braun, who was absent last night, by the way. Mike is in his third term. He just ran for state assembly, tried to house Nader Sage and assemblymen, and he lost in the general election.

He has something to gain by voting for the ability to run for a fourth term. There are some personal issues involved here. On the other hand, the more progressive people, they're representing a lot of the minority people of color of Yonkers who are now in the majority in the city. They view the term limits as a way to increase diversity in the political realm.

Brian Lehrer: Got it.

David McKay Wilson: That's at play here.

Brian Lehrer: Eric in Yonkers, you're on WNYC. Hi, Eric.

Eric: Hello. I've witnessed some pretty strong disputes among Democratic members of Yonkers. I'm wondering to what extent these division would affect this whole issue about whether Spano gets the term extended.

Brian Lehrer: Well, Eric, do you see the division in the party? The way that David from the Journal News was just describing it, it's the, if I'm accurately paraphrasing here, the entrenched older, whiter people in power as the city becomes more diverse and they want a quicker fair shot at getting their opportunity to at least run for power without term limits being extended.

Eric: Yes, I think that's a little bit clouded because there seems to be members of what is, I guess, in Yonkers incorrectly called a minority community who are very much in favor of Spano and what he's doing. Then there are other minorities that seem not to be. It's not clear cut to me that that's the dividing line. I'm wondering if your guest has a take on that.

Brian Lehrer: David.

David McKay Wilson: Well, it's certainly not 100%. In fact, the city council president African American woman, Lakisha Collins-Bellamy, she's appears to be in favor of the term limit extension. However, I think it sets up a very interesting possibility if this goes through, which looks like it probably could in terms of a primary against Mayor Spano, if he goes for a fourth. You have this split between Jamaal Bowman, the congressman who was elected to a second term, and he and Spano have fudded over his Bowman's vote on infrastructure. There is tension between those two camps, and I could see quite a robust primary with a candidate of color going against Spano and really having quite a competitive race.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Is there any debate taking place over the theoretical good government arguments for and against term limits like the people who are opposed to term limits often say look, "The people can elect whoever they want, and if somebody's doing a good job, let the people continue to elect them. Don't let some artificial rule, probably powered by interests who are as selfish as any others, but are out of power." That's the argument. Impose this artificial limit on how much I can elect the person I want to elect. Are you hearing that from the other side, or is this happening at a theoretical level at all, or is it just, I want mine versus I want mine?

David McKay Wilson: No, when I was speaking to the people last night who were brandishing the four more years signs, and there was many of them in the council chambers, they were saying, well, Yonkers is improving, the streets are safe, the schools are good, we like our cops. Buildings are going up. Our taxes are okay. Why would we want to change? Let's keep it moving.

Let's keep that Spano mojo moving, look what he's done for our city. It's improving our city. There's so much happening here. Why would we want to change? That's the anti-term limits argument, and that was the case that they were making. We'll see next Monday when they have the public hearing is going to be a public hearing, Monday night and I would imagine that's going to be much of the testimony in favor of it.

Brian Lehrer: We've been talking about changing demographics of Yonkers. What are the basic demographics of Yonkers now?

David McKay Wilson: Geez, I don't have the exact numbers, but White is under 50, I know that. The largest segment is Latino and Blacks I think are around 20%, maybe, I haven't checked it recently, but there's a very strong Black community in Yonkers. Then there's been this influx of Latino, but then people of, then there's a lot of Eastern European immigrants there. It's a city that's growing, and it's city school district has been improving, which has also been a plus to attract families there, people raising their children there and housing getting built. There's a lot of vibrancy in the city now, which hadn't been such 20 years ago, 30 years ago when I started reporting about the city.

Brian Lehrer: Is the growing Latino community largely Dominican, I live in upper Manhattan, which is a largely Dominican neighborhood, you can walk as I have, from where I live into Yonkers crossing some blocks of the Bronx. I wonder if the community, the Dominican community, Washington Heights to Inwood is expanding into Yonkers and if Spano has a lot of their support.

David McKay Wilson: There are Dominicans in Yonkers, I couldn't say definitively which immigrant group is supporting him. I know he does have lots of support in the immigrant community, and in fact, the guy who got the ball rolling on this as I reported was a Mexican immigrant who had come to Yonkers in the '90s, had worked on Park Hill in a bakery there was an old with a Spano neighborhood, knew the Spanos, have known the Spanos all these years. He was the one who approached the council with the Mexican American Chamber of Commerce saying, "Come on, let's do it for Mike, let's give him another four years." The whole movement started up through the immigrant community.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting, and I'm seeing a Yonkers demographics page from the 2020 census, which says 47% white, 34% Latino, 19% Black, 6% Asian. A lot of talk in this segment has been about how Yonkers is making so much progress in a number of ways. I think Marty in Yonkers is a little more skeptical, at least, of some of the development. Marty on WNYC. Hi.

Marty: Hi. We moved back to the New York area and we moved to Yonkers about a year and a half ago. I'm really glad that we have the film studio. My family's in the film business who are like, wow, that's really cool. All of these apartments that I can see from my window that are going up on the waterfront are going to be rentals. In the Kayak club that's up here, that's fabulous. We have people who do building, and they were like, why didn't they make them co-ops or condos? What we want is people actually living here and being invested as opposed to thousands of people renting in and out of Yonkers.

Also, I have other friends that I've met up here, business owners. They won't build. We don't have great restaurants here as far as I can see. They're like, "No." There's too much payback and everything else we'd have to do if we wanted to open something in Yonkers. There's also, in the downtown area, you can see buildings that are boarded up and are going to be gentrified.

I really applaud a lot of the stuff that's happening because before I lived in [unintelligible 00:30:30] and could see Yonkers, but it was very interesting to me to have business owners say, no, the refrigeration place that I use in downtown Yonkers, that guy's getting thrown out because the fact that they want his building for a new studio and somebody else was like, "No, there's too much corruption. I can't deal with all that stuff." That really surprised me, but I love Yonkers.

Brian Lehrer: Marty, thank you

Marty: There you go.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Thank you very much. Call us again. Gentrification battles in Yonkers, David?

David McKay Wilson: That's happening. There is some concern about that, but what she was saying about the rentals, well, that's where the housing market is in Westchester right now. There's a huge demand for rental housing. Westchester has-- In the suburban areas, there's such limits on building, the development has been in the cities and it's a way to build housing to young people if they can afford it, can live in. That's where the market is up here now.

Brian Lehrer: One more. Marcus in Yonkers calling in support of extending the term limits and letting them have a fourth term. Marcus, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Marcus: Hello. Thank you for the time. I'm in support of extending the term limits because as a person that believes in democracy in this republic, I believe I should have more choice, not less. Unless the officials is actually doing what I want them to do as a citizen of Yonkers, I don't see why I'm being forced to do change for the sake of change. Mayor Mike Spano keeps coming up and part of that reason is because he's done a great job. I see, for example, the way when the issues came up with the police and the community, the way the mayor handled it was basically an example to the rest of this nation.

He walked hand in hand with the protestors, with the assistance of the police commissioner. It's smart moves like that let the community know that you support them without having to put down another group such as the police. Being able to bridge that divide, I think is very important, especially in this political climate. As a resident here since 2004, that's seen positive change. That have seen my kids go through the school system and have more and more programs available. I'm by no means saying that it's perfect, but because it's not perfect and someone has made it that much better, I don't want to just change for the sake of change.

I want that person who has improved the city to continue to do so. I've heard others that are opponents to the term limits speak about we need more representation. That's done at the ballot box. What people need to do is actually show up and vote. If you see at local elections, we have very low turnout. People should come out and vote. You have options. We have the example of, in the last election, we had some change.

We now have a city council, president who happens to be an African American woman who's doing a great job. The opportunity for change and for representation of the demographics as they exist here in Yonkers is there. It's just people have to come out and vote, but term limits it's not just someone automatically saying, all right, you get another four years, you have to earn them.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much for your call, Marcus. Call us again. We really appreciate it. Well, as we conclude this segment, David McKay Wilson from the Journal News, one thing we can say is that we have listeners and Yonkers, that's for sure. Our board is full. We could keep going on this if we wanted to. Yonkers, you all showed up. People in Yonkers are out there, and people, obviously, care about this with all the voices who volunteer to talk in this segment these last minutes. I guess the last thing to say then is that there is this public hearing coming up next Monday. Where is that?

David McKay Wilson: That's at City Hall 6:30 PM. It's going to be packed, so get there early and you know what? It's one of the most beautiful city council chambers in all of New York. Beautifully restored, murals on the wall. Oh, my God. There's been so much that's gone on in those chambers. It's a beautiful place to be.

Brian Lehrer: David McKay Wilson. The Journal News' Tax Watch columnists. Thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.

David McKay Wilson: Thanks, Brian.

 

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.