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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. All right, listeners. What's your guilty pleasure and what does it make you feel guilty about? 212-433-WNYC. What's your guilty pleasure and what does it make you feel guilty about? 212-433-9692. Why do I ask? Well, a few weeks ago, poet and essayist Hannah Louise Poston raised this question in a video on her YouTube channel where she explores the push and pull dynamic of enjoying beautiful things in life and maintaining her financial health.

What are the pleasurable things you consume in your life that also give you grief? It can make you feel guilty in different kinds of ways. It could be different on different things, different for different people. Maybe it's the pair of shoes in your closet that you spent way too much money on, or an overflowing collection of baseball cards. Do you buy the $40 olive oil at the grocery store?

What makes something a guilty pleasure to you, and have you found a way to enjoy it regularly and responsibly? Is there something in your life you want to enjoy more often but you can't find a way to do it without destroying your finances or destroying your health or destroying the environment? Call us at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Maybe it's about the kinds of labor exploitation that might have gone into the things that you like to buy, or so many other possibilities. What's your guilty pleasure and what does it make you feel guilty about? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Joining us to share her strategies for enjoying guilty pleasures in a guilt-free way and why she wrote about this in the first place, is poet, essayist, and beauty influencer, Hannah Louise Poston. Hannah, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Hannah: Thank you so much for having me, Brian. Happy to be here.

Brian Lehrer: What got you onto this?

Hannah: Gosh. I am fascinated by consumerism, especially when it comes to the human love of beautiful and special objects, because I have had a troubled relationship with my own love of those things in the past. That's what my YouTube channel is about. I'm always looking for ways to reframe the discussion of that relationship concretely to present new content to my subscribers so we can chew over it in different ways. That's why I decided to make a YouTube video about guilty pleasures. It's just another angle on my favorite topic.

Brian Lehrer: Can you give us an example from your own life?

Hannah: Well, one of the examples that I gave in the video, which-- My channel is about the beautiful things that are my vices or have been my vices in the past. Makeup, clothing, skincare, those kinds of things, and home wears. My first example in my video was expensive home scent. I talked about a brand that I love, Le Labo, that makes exquisite home scent but is just simply priced way above what's reasonable for me with my income. That was my first example in the video.

Brian Lehrer: Just so people know, one more thing about the context of you not just finding your ways to justify buying these guilty pleasure things, you changed your unhealthy consumption habits by not buying things for an entire year, and you documented that year on YouTube. Why did you go cold turkey on your guilty pleasures for so long, and what came of it afterwards?

Hannah: Yes. My no-buy year was 2018, and that was my first year on YouTube. Leading up to that year, my relationship with shopping for beautiful things, which had always been maybe a little bit muddy, had gotten worse, and I went cold turkey. I decided to do a full no-buy for the year because I was desperate. Budgeting hadn't helped. Trying to make incremental changes hadn't worked.

My brain, I think, had become so accustomed to turning towards shopping, turning towards the anticipation of beautiful things as a way of turning away from the deeper issues of my life and avoiding the work I would've had to do in order to actually move the needle on my baseline state. I had become so accustomed to shopping instead of starting down the path of that work that my brain had basically atrophied into [chuckles] a shopping brain. I think on some level I knew that. I knew how bad it was. I knew that dramatic measures were the only measures that would work, so I said I'm going to refrain from buying any of my vices for an entire year.

I started my YouTube channel at the same time because I was watching a lot of YouTube. That was part of what was feeding the cycle, but that was also where I had found kindred spirits who were just as interested in beautiful things as I was, and in the minute differences between the different formulas and colors of different makeup products as I was, for example. I was surprised that there was nobody up on YouTube talking about overconsumption and debt. I was like, "I can't be the only person who has this passionate love and who's struggling with the dark side of that passion," so I decided to make my project public and see what happened.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We've got a board full of callers who are going to admit-

Hannah: I bet we do. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: -their guilty pleasures. [laughs] Interestingly, 2 of the 10 lines have people calling about the same thing, so we're going to put them on together. We going to go to Natalie in Westchester and Catherine in New Rochelle. Natalie, Catherine. Catherine, Natalie. Hello. Welcome to WNYC, both of you.

Natalie: Hi. How're you doing?

Catherine: Hello. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Natalie, you are on line one. You want to go first?

Natalie: All right. My guilty pleasure is a really good trashy romance novel. Like a Norah Jones. Middle-aged woman leaves her life and goes to Ireland and meets a handyman who is tortured, and they end up falling in love and blah blah blah. It's a guilty pleasure for me because I was a lit theory major in college who studied critical race theory and identity studies. It's everything that I don't even want for myself, but I love these stories. I just can't stop reading them.

Brian Lehrer: Catherine, your turn.

Catherine: Yes. Same thing - romance novels. It's pure escapism for me. A real way to get out of the stress of life. I'll be honest and say, sure, I'd love to be swept off my feet. [laughter] I allow myself now and say, "Look. It doesn't make me any less of an independent woman or a feminist to enjoy these just joyful stories."

Brian Lehrer: Yes. But it sounds like, Natalie, part of the guilt for you is a sort of political guilt. Yes?

Catherine: Oh, absolutely. Even just thinking about being satisfied with myself and where I am in my own life, why do I need this type of escapism? What is it about this? It's even like the scenery and the descriptions of the small towns and everything, but yes, pure escapism and a little bit of guilt that goes along with it that this is where I want to escape to.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Now because you've been brave enough to call up with your true confessions, I'm going to give you an opportunity to each recommend a book to the other. Catherine, you got a romance novel for Natalie?

Catherine: Oh boy. Let me see. I just finished The Dead Romantics, which was lovely.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Natalie, got one for Catherine?

Natalie: Yes. Wonderful. I would just say pick up a Nora Roberts novel. Something about her descriptions just like tweet me away. It's not quite as guilty as if I read like a Danielle Steel. [laughter]

Brian Lehrer: Oh, Nora Roberts. Right. You said Norah Jones before and I was thinking the singer writes romance?

Natalie: Oh, I'm so sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Nora Roberts.

Natalie: No. I meant Nora Roberts.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Catherine in New Rochelle, Natalie in Westchester, thank you both very much. All right. What were you thinking listening to that conversation?

Hannah: I'm fascinated by this remark-- the question what is it that I'm unsatisfied with in my life? What is it that I'm missing in my life that requires me to seek this kind of escapism? I think that that question is at the core of what interests me so much about this concept of guilty pleasures, and even the issue of pouring yourself into a habit that gives you short-term satisfaction like shopping.

If you think that there's going to be a long-term consequence or you feel some shame around it because that question, "What am I missing in my life that I feel like I'm needing to fill? What hole is in my life that I'm using this to fill?" Or maybe not the question but the portrait that you're painting there when you say, "I'm indulging in this pleasure because I feel hunger," or, "I feel an emptiness or lack." That's one way of engaging with pleasure.

Another way is sort of what the other caller was indicating. Saying, "My life is lovely." Then this is just a little cherry on top that maybe comes with a little bit of contradiction and a little bit of guilt around it, but I'm not using it to try to fix myself. I'm not using it to try to heal myself, so that's what makes it okay for me.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We spent a little time with those two callers on the romance novels. Now let me cut through some folks fairly rapid-fire and get some other things on the table because there's a whole host of big variety of things here. Bridget in Easton, Connecticut, you're on WNYC. Hi, Bridget. What's your guilty pressure?

Bridget: Oh. Hi there. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Okay.

Bridget: Concierge medical care. I pay a very large fee to my doctor for the privilege of seeing her. My friends think I'm insane because no one should have to pay. It's something I do for me, and I cut out a lot of things to do it. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: What you get is a doctor with a smaller practice who gives you personal attention, right?

Bridget: Yes. Who I've known for 30-something years, and so she knows all my tricks and my evasion. I really considered it. She hadn't been a big practice. I get better care, and I think I get more attention.

Brian Lehrer: Bridget, thank you very much. I know those run thousands of dollars a year. That's Bridget's guilty pleasure. Arusha in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Arusha.

Arusha: Hey, Brian. My guilty pleasure is I follow bands very far. [chuckles] I'm traveling to Portland to see The Cure next month, and I'm traveling to Milwaukee to see Nick Cave. I live in New York. I've been traveling to see music my whole life and I just absolutely love it, but it is way beyond my financial budget. Way beyond.

Brian Lehrer: I think I saw that Nick Cave was just here or was coming here, but why does it make you feel guilty? Oh, because of your budget?

Arusha: Well, yes. I should preface that by also saying that I actually don't feel guilty because my life experience-- Like me as primary, I know that the reward is better and that the money will come again, but the society pressure of like, "You should be making yourself small. You should be enjoying other things. Why are you following a stupid band around?" I question myself. Sometimes I even then get more defiant.

Brian Lehrer: Let me say, for what it's worth, that I get you, Arusha, because I love concerts. I love how I feel going to see musical artists who just make me feel good and inspire me, so I get you. Arusha, good luck with that. Keith in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Keith.

Keith: Hi. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What's your guilty pressure?

Keith: First of all, thank you. You're a national treasure, and part of the reason you are is that you can go from a serious abortion discussion to guilty pleasures in one show. So brilliant, brilliant work.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Keith: Real quick. I am 55 years old. I've worked my whole life since I was about 14, mostly in office jobs. My guilty pleasure since COVID is working from home, and I'm still feeling something is wrong. I love it, but I also feel like I am getting away with something. Right now I've got a batch of sourdough going, and I'm also kind of working, so I'm calling you.

Brian Lehrer: Is it that you feel like you're getting away with not working as much or you're depriving colleagues of your company, or what's the source of the guilt?

Keith: [laughs] Well, first of all, I'm glad we're only doing first names because I wouldn't want my colleagues to know this. I feel like, yes, I'm not doing the "work" as much even though I'm getting everything that I need to get done, done. It's just a feeling that if you're not in an office sitting in your chair you're not quite as much at work. Anyway, it's an old hang-up. I have to get over it.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. I'm going to call you Jody because that's a name that you're not. That nobody knows what gender it is or anything else. Thank you for your call. Let's do one more in this set. Diana in Chatham, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Diana.

Diana: Hello, Brian. Lovely to be on the show, and what he said, national treasure. My guilty pleasure is I cannot after 50 years resist going into knitting yarn stores. I have 50 years' worth of leftover yarn. I'm trying to work through it making beautiful double-walled hats, which I give away or sell and give the proceeds to charity. I'm doing that, but when I go into a yarn store, especially there's now all this beautiful, colorful Japanese yarn, I can't resist buying it. It's guilty because I think about all that yarn at home that I could be making into hats that will be of use to somebody and I can't resist. I try to resist buying more yarn but it's hard. It's hard.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] Diana, thank you very much. Before we get a comment from our guest Hannah on that, I'm just going to pass along a little breaking news. Cheering it may be a guilty pleasure for you, or maybe not at all. Tucker Carlson is leaving Fox News. They just announced it and they didn't announce a reason, but that he's already done his last show. Brian Stelter, CNN's media correspondent, tweets, "The biggest tell in Fox's press release about Tucker Carlson's exit is that he is not getting a final show. No chance to say goodbye on his own terms or appoint people to his next home. Fox says Carlson's last program was Friday."

In other words, Stelter is thinking that Tucker Carlson got fired maybe over his role in the Dominion lawsuit antics or some other reason. This is so out of what you do, Hannah, that I don't know if I should ask you to comment on it or not. Either comment on that story, or any of the calls we just heard with their guilty pleasures.

Hannah: I'd love to react to the calls.

Brian Lehrer: Please.

Hannah: I loved hearing the first three callers talk about the social pressure. The woman who called in about her guilty pleasure being traveling for concerts first said, "It's way beyond my financial means." Then she corrected herself and said, "You know actually, I know that I can make it okay for myself." What she really meant was someone looking from the outside, putting their judgment, their lens on my life would say that it's beyond my financial means, but it's not really for me because the pleasure is what I want to pay for. It is the pleasure that I want to pay for. It really shines a light on how much of this concept of the guilty pleasure has to do with what we think others will think.

The first caller who said, "My friends think I'm crazy, but I myself cut corners in the rest of my life so that it is reasonable for me to pay for this specialized medical care." She was saying-- all of the first three callers were saying, "It's not really a guilty pleasure because I make it make sense for myself with my own equations."

Then the final call about the yarn, that's a little bit more in my sphere. Just this love of beauty, the pure form of it. Color, texture. Buying the yarn even though you know that the practical use for that yarn, which is to make it into something, may not ever be met because you have more than you can ever make. In that case, what you're buying is color. You're buying color. You're buying texture. You're buying beauty.

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Brian Lehrer: So many on the board that are so different. One says reality TV, another says napping, another says Devil Dogs after dinner. We will leave it there with Hannah Louise Poston, who is a poet, essayist, and beauty influencer. Hannah, great conversation. Thanks a lot.

Hannah: Thank you so much for having me on the show, Brian.

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