[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today's the day that the mask mandate officially goes away for stores and other indoor public places in New York state, but not in New Jersey. Governors Cuomo and Murphy have usually been on the same page when it comes to things like this during the pandemic, but not right now on this specific point. Masks in stores or other public places indoors.

In a minute I'll read you a story from the New York Post this morning about the hornet's nest, that one popular Manhattan and Bronx and New Jersey supermarket says it has stepped into with this. We'll talk to a business reporter from New Jersey and an employment lawyer from New York. First here's Cuomo on Monday and notice how he puts the onus on businesses themselves.

Governors Andrew Cuomo: Individual private venues still have the ability to add additional guidelines to the state guidelines and the CDC guidelines, but for our part, we're adopting the CDC and we're saying let's open.

Brian: He says business owners may still ask patrons to don their mask. As a customer or an employee, you'll have to find out if each store or other business that you go into or work at will keep an indoor mask requirement or ask for proof of vaccination or negative COVID test status. Here's the other thing that's scrambling everybody's brains, the Cuomo policy says it's only vaccinated people who don't have to wear their masks.

The unvaccinated are still supposed to wear them or keep 6 feet of social distance in those venues indoors in public settings, but it's an honor system. The state will not require those measures. In fact, Target shoppers, Walmart shoppers, Morton William shoppers, many other shoppers, the governor has put that part of the onus on you. [silence] Nice governor. Thanks a lot. Now I'm the health department. I'm sure our employment lawyer guests will have something to say about that. First for the record, while all this takes effect today in New York, governor Murphy says he's not ready for this yet in New Jersey.

Governor Phil Murphy: We think we have this thing on the run and as it relates to public places, we're just not there yet and we're putting an enormous burden on the retail employee or the maître d or you pick the guy at the hardware store to make them become the adjudicator between, "Prove to me that you're vaccinated or not." That's an incredibly unfair position for them to be in.

For a whole host of reasons, we're going to get there, but we haven't said this in a while either. Again, the experts to my right will either support this or correct the record. When you've got it going in the right direction as we have it going now, the more time you can put on the clock, the higher the chances are that you're going to drive this thing permanently into the ground.

Brian: Governor Murphy on Monday. Those other clips were of Cuomo on Monday. Business owners, which state would you rather be in? The one with fewer rules now, or the one with clearer rules now? Now, here's that hornet's nest story that I promised you from The Post. The headline is, "New York City supermarket enters hornet's nest." That phrase is in the headline because the store management called the situation that, a hornet's nest. "NYC supermarket enters hornet's nest in dropping mask mandate."

It says the controversy kicked off Monday at Morton Williams when the popular supermarket emailed customers about its decision to comply with the new CDC coronavirus guidelines starting Wednesday, today, when New York state will drop its mass mandate. The short email simply explained the new policy and said, the grocer, "Will not ask for proof of vaccination," but it resulted in what they called a hornet's nest of backlash from mask advocates.

According to a follow-up email the chain sent out a few hours later. The follow-up email explained that Morton Williams stores will put up signs encouraging customers and employees to continue to wear masks regardless of their vaccination status. It's a mess at Morton Williams apparently. Welcome to the next phase of our reopening with ambiguity and with us now is Carol Goodman, an attorney with the law firm of Herrick Feinstein LLP.

She is chair of the firm's employment practice, which I think basically means she's the lawyer for your boss, or if you're the boss, she's the lawyer for you. We'll also talk with Carol about a new law in New York state coming soon to a business near you called The HERO Act that will set virus protection standards for employers to follow to protect their employees. Also, with us Daniel Munoz who covers New Jersey state politics for the New Jersey business website NJBIZ Daniel, welcome back and Carol, welcome to WNYC.

Carol Goodman: Thank you, Brian. Good morning.

Daniel Munoz: Morning. Thanks for having me.

Brian: Carol, you heard that intro in New York as of today, unvaccinated people are still supposed to wear masks or keep 6 feet of distance in stores and other indoor businesses, but it's not required and the businesses do not have to ask for proof of vaccination or negative COVID test status. What is a store's legal obligation to its customers?

Carol: Well, Brian, I agree with your introduction that there is some unrest and confusion that I think will be cleared up when one of the two laws that we'll talk about the New York Heroes Act goes into place. Right now in New York, we're talking about New York adopts CDC guidelines, as you said, allowing a business to have discretion and a lot of choices on keeping an existing plan in place or loosening restrictions. Then, soon we'll have additional standards under this New York Heroes Act, safety standards.

Right now a business can decide what they want to do. If you want to just focus for a moment on the employees it's a lot easier. The employer and you're correct, I am a lawyer for a lot of the companies who are the bosses, but probably a lot easier to say, "You know what? I'm going to keep everything in place." You can certainly keep more restrictions as opposed to less. Maybe that's a lot easier, but a company has to weigh that against retaining employees who may want looser restrictions. I would say looser restrictions, not wearing a mask if you're vaccinated is an incentive to get the vaccination.

A business has to weigh all of this. I think the number one thing for a business to think about is to keep their employees as safe as possible, keep your safety plan or modify your safety plan, but follow it. Once your employees feel safe and that environment is safe, we have control over that. We don't have control over the customer. We don't have control over the third party, but as far as the employees go, we can require status on their vaccine.

We can require non-vaccinated people to continue to wear a mask. That's step one, then step two we have to turn to the client or the customers who are coming in and out and we can encourage, but we have control over our workforce. That's what we know.

Brian: Listeners, first priority in the phones right now will be for anyone who owns or runs a business in New York or New Jersey that has the public come into your space indoors 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. How are you handling masks and proof of vaccination or negative COVID tests in any way? 646-435-7280, or what questions do you have for employment law attorney Carol Goodman or NJBIZ reporter Daniel Munoz?

Free legal advice. 646-435-7280, but Carol, I know that disclaimer, "The opinions expressed on this program do not constitute actual legal advice just the general views of a lawyer having a conversation on the radio, so if you have an actual legal issue, please contact your lawyer." Is that about right?

Carol: That's perfect. You must've done this before?

Brian: Yes. Listeners, you can call and ask for Carol's personal opinions about what your hypothetical lawyer might hypothetically tell you after you pay your hypothetical retainer. 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. The governor spoke that line, Carol. I suspect the customers are going to be asking the private vendors what they did. Let's take a scenario.

Let's say I'm a customer at Morton Williams, just to take the New York post example, and I asked the manager, "Hey manager, Governor Cuomo told me to ask you what you did to make sure only vaccinated people are going unmasked in here. What did you do?" The manager shrugs, and then I get COVID. Let's say I can trace it to the store. I don't die, but I get long-haul COVID and I'm miserable. I have brain fog more than I usually do. I want to hire a lawyer and sue for damages. Is the store liable?

Carol: Under this hypothetical legal example, and I will give you my hypothetical advice. Probably not. This came up a lot a year ago at the beginning of the pandemic. In fact, I would guess most of us signed waivers when we walked into certain venues, not in the workplace, but if you go into a gym that might have been partially open or a community center, even a school, and that was supposed to be to protect from a lawsuit, that's state by state whether or not they're enforceable, but at least at the beginning of this pandemic, I can't imagine how anyone would be able to prove how one contracted COVID.

It could have been anywhere, a gas station, go into a drugstore, go into your own home, driving your child to school, going in the subway, it's a little different now that the rates of this infection are so much less. I stand by what I said which is very hard to show where one contracts. If the store answers by, "We have a safety plan, we are we ensure that our employees follow the safety plan.

We are following the New York guidelines on specific health and safety standards in the workplace, which includes disinfecting, cleaning, hygiene, PPE equipment, face coverings when necessary. We are keeping this as safe as possible. We are cautioning you by this sign that you must or you should wear all the PPE equipment that you want. If you're not vaccinated, you must. That's our obligation as a store." Now, if an employee chooses not to follow that or to say, "I'm not wearing a mask and I don't care," I believe the company has met their obligations there.

Brian: All right, maybe an employee lawyer or consumer lawyer might take a different position, but I hear you. Daniel, be patient, we'll get to the New Jersey angle in a minute.

Daniel: Okay.

Brian: First Carol, one more scenario. This time, I'm not the customer in New York. I'm an employee at the same store. I say, "Hey, boss, you just told that customer, who looks a lot like me, that you have no system for finding out who's vaccinated here or making the unvaccinated folks stay six feet from me when they're asking where the paper towels are. I don't feel safe. That customer is only in here to shop for a few minutes. I have to work here all day. What are you going to do to protect me?" Carol, what's the right answer?

Carol: The right answer is policy, policy, policy. Those are my three words that I'll probably repeat a few times. You have to have a policy as an employer and you need to follow it. It has to comply with all of the New York laws, the original ones that came out a year ago, which are industry-specific, the new Heroes Act, which are standards of safety, and the CDC guidelines.

If an employee is vaccinated, and your policy says you must be vaccinated unless there's an exception, and if so you don't have to wear a mask. That's one way of doing it, but another way when you're dealing with customers, and you don't know if they are vaccinated, an employee should feel free to continue to wear that mask under a policy and you can have that policy for your employees.

Brian: That's an employee should feel free to wear the mask, but boss, "Here at Target, Walmart, Morton Williams, Starbucks, you've all lifted your mask requirement, and vaccination requirement except for an honor system, how do I know any of that is actually happening because you are vaccinated in here without finding out their vaccinated status? You are actually doing that, boss."

Carol: Correct. Under the policy and the guidelines and the CDC, if you are vaccinated, and you told me you are because you signed this and I have your card, you are protected from somebody who's not vaccinated. However, I'm going to make sure you social distance 6 feet, we're going to make sure that register is still 6 feet away because you're a mixed company we have no idea if the people walking in this store are vaccinated even if they tell us they are.

You don't wear a mask into the guidelines, but if it's a mixed company, that's what they say, you still have to social distance, we're going to keep you 6 feet away. We're going to keep our stickers on the floor. We're going to have one person in the bathroom at a time. We're going to keep that plexiglass over until we know that the world is a safer place.

Brian: Thank you for all that hypothetical nonlegal legal advice. Daniel Munoz from NJ business. Why isn't Governor Murphy lifting the indoor mask mandate for New Jersey? Like Governor Cuomo did for New York?

Daniel: Well, he hasn't commented specifically on New York. He said, "I can't go into specifics of what could be different in New York." That's one thing that I have noticed this week. I think the main gist is that the state isn't quite there yet. That the state is at this point where it could really beat back the virus if the mask requirement was in place maybe two more weeks even, or a month. He's worried that lifting and now there could be some embers, some flare-ups that could spring up given that there's still a lot of people that are not fully vaccinated.

I think we're about 3.7 million people over the age of 16 who have gotten the shot, the governor wants to get to 4.7 million people. We just started with 12 to 15-year-olds with the Pfizer vaccine. There's enough people in the unvaccinated cohort that the governor feels this could be a big problem.

Brian: Still under 50% with at least one shot. Has Murphy laid out the criteria-- Oh, well, you just said 4.7, is that the criteria under which he will decide it is time to take that next step?

Daniel: For most of the pandemic, whatever restrictions are in place, he hasn't really given a specific set of criteria, a set of, "If these numbers are achieved, we will do these things." That's frustrated a number of business owners. Readers I've talked to on the more extreme end has led to some conspiracies about what the governor is doing. I guess because of an information void people start to say spread rumors and conspiracies and refer to them as true. We haven't quite gotten a key set of metrics of, "If this happens, we will do this." So, no.

Brian: What's been the political reaction to Murphy being more cautious than Cuomo at this point?

Daniel: I think it's been basically the same. As for the whole pandemic, Democrats in the State legislator are very along the lines of, "Well, the governor's in a tough situation. This pandemic is devastating. We need to be careful, we can't afford to make mistakes that will cost lives." The Republicans have been saying, "Well, the governor should be listening to the science. The CDC said he doesn't have to do this and he's doing it. He's really not listening to anybody." According to what Republicans are saying.

I think there's just a lot of grumblings just overall on the streets. If you asked anyone on the road, "What do you think of this?" Just the sheer number of people who would have worn the mask because the CDC said it and now they're like, "Well, my motivation is gone." It's been all over the place.

Brian: Pamela in Tribeca, you're on WNYC. Hi, Pamela.

Pamela: Hi, Brian. How are you?

Brian: Good. You own a restaurant I see?

Pamela: We do in Midtown.

Brian: What are you changing as of today under these New York State new guidelines that go into effect then remove the mask and vaccination requirement if you're changing anything?

Pamela: My management team and I saw this coming a few weeks ago when they announced that they wanted to get back by July 1st to 100% capacity. Bars have been operating now for about a week. We recognize that in order to really get back to that 100% level, we would have to be putting people in a compressed location again with people sitting next to each other within 6 feet of one another.

Last week, we decided to request on our website and with our reservation that people show at the door either an Excelsior pass, or a picture of their vaccine card, or bring a test, a negative test that they had received within the last three days of their reservation. 80% to 90% of our guests really complied without issue. They were happy that we were making these changes to keep them safe and to respect our employees, but boy, did we get blown up on Instagram from a ton of anti-vaxxers and we were called Nazis, we were told, "What's next? Papers, please."

I'm wondering what's the advice for businesses do want to protect their employees and their guests. They do want to check vaccine status at the door from all those people that really disagree with a universal vaccine card or the Excelsior Pass or showing any sort of proof of vaccination.

Brian: Lawyer Carol, you're up.

Carol: [chuckles] Hi, Pamela. Well, my hypothetical advice to this hypothetical question. Look, everybody wants really two things, safety and to stay in business and they really do go hand in hand because if this happens again, we're all going to be out of business or home or remote and restaurants will go back to delivery. One of the purposes of this new HERO Act, once there's an act in place which is right around the corner, and you are absolutely required to follow your industry-specific standards, you're not going to have a choice.

It will be a lot easier to explain to patrons that we have to follow these certain standards in this industry, which may include distancing and the hygiene, et cetera. I was listening to what you're saying-- Look, I think you're going in the right direction. If people are not vaccinated, they really cannot fit within 6 feet of each other. If you don't absolutely know for sure that there's a negative test of your past, the tables do have to be 6 feet apart and I would go with that.

I think people would probably appreciate that. I'm not sure if anyone is used to being so close to each other. I was surprised to be in an elevator with more than one person the other day. It was a very strange feeling. Stick with the guidelines. Yours haven't come out yet, you have the old ones, they're still in place. If you're not sure that everyone's vaccinated, keep them 6 feet apart and keep your employees as safe as possible wearing a mask or making sure they're vaccinated.

Brian: Pamela, let me ask you a question. I'm curious if you're getting social media blowback for keeping your proof of vaccine requirement or negative COVID test requirement in place. Was it affecting your business or is it just blah, blah, blah, and social media from people that don't like it?

Pamela: It was a lot of really anxiety causing blah, blah, blah on social media. Everyone in our group who checks our Instagram page was really disturbed by some of the things that were being said. In-person at the door, most of our guests are happy to show their vaccine, they're proud of their vaccine status. Those who have the Excelsior Pass are happy to get it scanned. I think they recognize that this is probably what's going to happen for sporting events, for concerts, for any real large venues, you're going to have to scan those passes or prove your vaccination status.

We did have a few guests over the last couple of days who really objected and didn't want to show status, refused to approve that they were COVID negative, or they had had the vaccine, and so we told them that we wouldn't be able to serve them. It's disappointing because we do need that business. That's why we're doing this. We want to get back to 100%. We want people sitting next to each other at the bar without mask maybe enjoying a conversation with a stranger for the first time in 14, 15 months. That's why we're doing this. We're sticking to our guns and trying to do it with as much hospitality and kindness as possible.

Brian: One more question for you, Pamela. Is it better for you that Governor Cuomo lifted the mandate and you're doing this on your own so you have more flexibility to do what you decide is best for your business and for your workers and customers or would you rather he have kept it in place because he now put the onus on you to get this blowback on Instagram rather than on him?

Pamela: I do wish that the local and state leaders would have taken a little more of the pressure off of us to make the choice. Walking to school with my son this morning, he's 15 and I said, "Well, what do you think we should be doing? Should we be asking at the door for proof? or should we just be asking at the door and letting a guest say, 'Yes, I'm vaccinated or no, I'm not?'" He said, "Mom, people lie all the time." We're making the choice to actually verify so that all the guests that are inside can be very comfortable and very assured that guest next to them that's unmasked enjoying a cocktail or consuming food is also vaccinated and everyone can be a little more comfortable while they're in our space.

Brian: Now, after answering so many questions, would you like to promote your restaurant or considering the topic would you like to keep your name under wraps?

Pamela: No, no, no. We are very proud of what we were doing at Hutong at 58th and Lexington in the Bloomberg Building, open Tuesday through Saturday evenings and Sunday brunch. We would love to see WNYC listeners at any time.

Brian: Pamela, may you thrive. Thank you for calling in.

Carol: Well, we know we going to have lunch today.

Pamela: Thank you so much, Brian.

Brian: There you go. All right, we'll continue in a minute. We have a toy store owner who wants to know what about kids who come into their store? We have somebody who says 14 different government agencies are coming into his place of business now to look around and expect. That will lead us into our conversation about the HERO Act in New York State with Carol Goodman and how it will apply and more. Stay with us.

[music]

Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we continue to compare the situations in New York and New Jersey, today's the day that New York officially lifts it's mask mandate for stores and other indoor places of business. People who are unvaccinated are supposed to continue wearing masks or social distance, but it's all on an honor system. New Jersey has decided for the moment not to take those same steps. We're talking about all this with Carol Goodman, an attorney with the law firm of Herrick Feinstein, she's chair of the firm's employment practice and Daniel Munoz who covers New Jersey state politics for the New Jersey business website and NJBIZ. Jennifer in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jennifer. Thanks for calling in.

Jennifer: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call.

Brian: You own a toy store I see?

Jennifer: Yes, I own West Side Kids on 84th in Amsterdam. We're curious what Carol has to say about people wearing because children aren't vaccinated yet and we have kids in our store all day long.

Carol: You want me to answer, Brian?

Brian: Yes, go ahead.

Carol: [chuckles] Hi, there. Well, it's really important question. If we think about it, there are always going to be individuals who are not vaccinated. Whether it's our employees or whether it's customers, children for sure, you have people who are disabled and for that reason can't get vaccinated. You have people who have a sincerely held religious belief cannot get vaccinated. Then, you have people who just don't want to. We have to go back to how do we keep them safe? In your scenario, the children are not being vaccinated and you want to keep them safe as well. As in the restaurant situation, everybody is vaccinated in your workforce or being very safe by wearing the PPE equipment.

Your employees who you can control in your company, that's step one. Then, following the rest of your original safety plan which is going to be cleaning and hand hygiene and PPE equipment, and the signs that are up. Even the people who are walking in are still following that. Now social distance may not be applicable if you're in-- Well, I suppose in a store you could try the best you can. Remember at the beginning of the pandemic, we had lines outside of doors so that a lot of people could come in, that is not what we want to do, obviously.

I would say, keep your employees who we have control over, safe as can be masks or proof of vaccination, all of those safety laws that we've been doing for the last year, make sure you continue to do so. Social distancing to the extent you can. An employer can always have more as opposed to less since it's in your discretion. I wear a mask around my wrist, I don't know what situation I'm going to be in. I am vaccinated, but I always have it. Perhaps when a child is in or you're really not sure that employee just puts on that mask even though they're fully vaccinated.

Brian: Jennifer, what are you doing at West Side Kids?

Jennifer: We were talking about it yesterday and right now one of my employees, he got his second shot on Saturday. At least for the next two weeks, we're all going to be wearing masks and asking everybody to continue to wear masks until he's fully protected, but because of the children, I think that our customers will feel safer if we ask everybody to wear masks. We did an unofficial poll yesterday and the last few days asking people what they thought. The few people that we talked to, and of course, we're on the Upper West Side and our percentage rate of positivity is really, really low.

Everyone's like, "No, I'm wearing my mask, I'm wearing my mask." We also do limit the number of people in our store. Our store is small, it's 1,400 square feet. We don't let more than 10 people in at a time. Some people have to wait and our business still isn't at 100%. We're all trying to get back to where we were and every restriction or regulation, or anything that makes it harder to shop, hurts us. If someone feels like we're preventing them from shopping the way they want to, I don't want to lose their business.

Brian: You're happy or more unhappy that Cuomo lifted the state requirement for that yesterday, or as of today?

Jennifer: Like Pamela, I'm unhappy that they're putting it on us. I am a small business owner, I have four employees, I'm not a health official, and it would be better for us that the government and the local government comes to us and says, "Okay, these are the regulations. This is what we need to follow." Yes, the governor gave more--

Brian: Interesting. All right. Jennifer, thank you so much. Good luck at Westside Kids. Our informal, unofficial sample of two would rather have the regulations still in place in New York State. Don in Teaneck, you're on WNYC. Hi, Don.

Don: Hello, everybody. Well, basically, my question is what happened to the temperature element there as far as screening is concerned, especially for these large venue events? What happens? Is it deemed ineffective in taking of the temperatures or is [unintelligible 00:31:34] to take a persons word [unintelligible 00:31:39] what they can do to avoid such [unintelligible 00:31:42]

Brian: That's a good question, Don. Thank you. Daniel Munoz from NJBIZ has that-- I've gotten into some places recently where they still took my temperature at the door, but we know so many cases are asymptomatic. I'm not sure that was ever an effective screen, but are they still doing it around New Jersey?

Daniel Munoz: It's on and off. I think I've been to a number of businesses, I haven't been to any large venues, but I've been to a number of businesses where they take your temperature at the door, or where they ask for the name of a particular party, like if you're eating at a restaurant, and some of them will ask the name. A lot of places I know restaurants aren't doing that if you just walk in like you would have non-COVID and get a table and then get your food and then do that. It's a mixed bag.

I'd say most people are fatigued with some of these things with the screenings, and there are a lot of questions about if they're accurate enough, if just taking a temperature is actually a scientific-- If it's scientific versus like taking an actual test and getting the result.

Brian: One of those things you mentioned happened to me recently and it was a little bit of a shock although personally, I was happy to do it, that they asked for my email address as I went into a place of business, just in case.

Carol: Right.

Daniel: [chuckles] Right.

Brian: All right. As we head toward running out of time, Carol, originally before the developments of this week with the lifting of the mandates in New York, as you know, you are going to come on to talk about New York State's new law called the HERO Act designed to protect workers from COVID as they go back to their workplaces more in-person. What's your big picture take on what the HERO Act will require employers to do?

Carol: I think that the HERO Act will perhaps be a little different than we thought a couple of weeks ago now that New York adopted the CDC guidelines because the HERO Act is going to address face coverings, health screenings, the temperature taking, but I look at it more as a bigger picture and a longer-term act. Certainly, it's going to apply to what's going on right now, but it's also going to apply in the future to make sure that this doesn't happen again, to prevent exposure to airborne infectious disease in the workplace, by putting these standards in place that took us so long to get to over the last year.

They'll be in place. Employees are going to have to follow it, employers are going to have to follow it, and there's an enforcement mechanism. We didn't have this before. This is to ensure safety in the future and to get us back to reentry [crosstalk] and we will see exactly-- [crosstalk] I'm sorry.

Brian: [crosstalk] What is the enforcement?

Carol: It's industry-specific, I wanted to add. The enforcement is really twofold. First, it allows the New York department of labor to investigate if there's a violation. An employee can report and there will be an investigation. That employee cannot be terminated. There's a no retaliation rule. It's almost like a whistleblower. If an employee calls, there's an investigation, boss finds out who called, that employee is protected. There's also employee recourse where they call it a private right of action. An employee could actually seek their own relief in court. It's not a typical lawsuit, it's more of an injunction.

They can go to court to make sure that the employer is following the rules, and there could be damages to the employer if they failed to follow the rules. The employees are also supposed to be part of a committee. It's a labor-management workplace-type committee where non-supervisory employees and supervisory employees are going to participate together, says the act, to put together these plans and to make sure that they're enforced. The one thing I have not seen addressed yet, and I'll leave you, I guess with this, because I don't know where it's going to go, but I wonder if they're going to address the issue of, some people are wearing masks, and some people aren't wearing masks.

What does that create now in the workplace? Does that create a stigma? The person who called from the store, who wants to be safer, and have their employees wear a mask, will someone come in now and say, "Well, you're wearing a mask, you must not be vaccinated?" Should we have a sign that says, "I'm wearing a mask because I feel safer, but I'm fully vaccinated"? I am wondering if any of that type of stigma, I'll say, will be addressed in any of these plans going forward or acts going forward.

Brian: Unresolved. We leave it with Carol Goodman, an attorney at the law firm of Herrick Feinstein, she's Chair of the firm's employment practice and Daniel Munoz who covers New Jersey State politics for the New Jersey business website, NJBIZ. Thank you both so much. Very clarifying as much as anything could be clarifying at this particular moment.

Carol: [crosstalk] Thank you.

Daniel Munoz: Thanks for everything.

Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. New York mayoral candidate, Dianne Morales is next. Stay with us.

 

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.