[music]

Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Brigid Bergin, WNYC and Gothamist Reporter. March is Women's History Month, and throughout the month, we're talking about the struggles of women in traditionally male professions. Last week we heard from women working in science and engineering. Today we're focusing on women in skilled trades like plumbing, mechanics, or construction.

According to the Institute for Women's Policy Research Center, only 11% of people working in construction trades in 2021 were women, but as small as that percentage is, it's actually a 30% increase from 2016. More women are choosing trade careers. My guest today is Sinade Wadsworth, a journey-level carpenter. She's also an ambassador council member for the non-profit, Non-traditional Employment for Women, or NEW.

The group helps train and place women in skilled trades. She's also a council representative with the New York City District Council of Carpenters. We're going to talk about what working as a union carpenter was like and how more women can move into that field. Before we get into that, I want to invite any women who are working or have worked in trades to call in.

Are you a carpenter, an electrician, an HVAC technician, a plumber? Do you work at a construction site? Landscaping? What made you choose a skilled trade? Have you ever been the only woman on a job site? What kind of challenges have you faced? We want to hear all of your stories and we want to hear from you. Give me a call at 212-433 WNYC. That's 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

We want to know what it's like working as a woman in a skilled trade. Now hi, Sinade. Welcome to WNYC.

Sinade Wadsworth: Good morning and welcome, and thank you for having me. How are you?

Brigid Bergin: I'm great. So great to have you here. Let's start a little bit with your history. You trained to become a carpenter with the Non-traditional Employment for Women or NEW.

Sinade Wadsworth: Yes.

Brigid Bergin: At the time, what appealed to you about carpentry?

Sinade Wadsworth: I'll say this, I didn't know anything about carpentry. I found Non-traditional Employment for Women by accident, and it was the best thing I've ever done. I'll say that a lot of people don't realize that this industry is for them because most likely if you don't have family in the industry, you're not hip to the other opportunities out there. I'll say that no one or I didn't personally grow up saying I wanted to be a carpenter.

I think that I am really, really fortunate to have had Non-traditional Employment for Women because when I did attend the program and do the training, I didn't know that this industry was for me, and it is for me.

Brigid Bergin: I mentioned that you're a journey-level carpenter. Can you just-- [crosstalk]

Sinade Wadsworth: Yes.

Brigid Bergin: Quickly. What does that mean exactly?

Sinade Wadsworth: Journey level carpenter means that I completed my apprenticeship program, which is four to five years long. As an apprentice, you get paid to learn. You're getting paid very well to learn a skill, and then after four years after being taught, you're on your own and basically, you're able to teach someone else. That's what we mean when we say journey level. You're able to now not only teach someone else, but we're international. That means we can go anywhere in the United States as well as Canada and work.

Brigid Bergin: You said that you stumbled onto training with NEW. I'm wondering what approach do they take in preparing women to enter these really male-dominated fields?

Sinade Wadsworth: I was on the train and I seen an ad for NEW, that's how this all started.

Brigid Bergin: Wow.

Sinade Wadsworth: NEW is advertised everywhere. We have a lot of train ads. We have a lot of billboards that we're on. In terms of the training, they train you how to lift and carry. They teach you about the different trades you have available to you, such as the plumber's union, such as the carpenters union, electricians, operating engineers. Basically, you have trade speakers who come in and talk to you about what the industry's like.

We have a lot of women who come in and trade speak about their experiences, and based off of that, you pick your path. I was very fortunate. I had a female instructor who was a carpenter. Her name is Tamara Rivera. She was also a graduate of NEW, almost 30 years ago, and she was the first female hired at the New York City District Council of Carpenters as a representative. I was very, very fortunate to have mentorship, to have guided me to this path.

Brigid Bergin: There have been some reports of a skilled labor shortage. Can you talk about what some of the benefits are of trade careers, especially for women?

Sinade Wadsworth: Absolutely. I'll say the first and most important thing is the equal pay. Outside of organized labor, that is really not the case. That is rarely the case where you get paid the same as your male or brother counterpart. I'll say that is the first and best thing about what we have as the union. I have health benefits. I have a pension. Most people don't have those things. I also have an annuity. This is an opportunity of a lifetime for anyone, especially women who are looking for Independence, a pathway to the middle class, and it really is stability.

Brigid Bergin: I'm speaking with Sinade Wadsworth, a journey-level carpenter. You're listening to The Brian Lehrer Show, and let's go to Keisha in Brooklyn. Keisha, welcome to WNYC.

Keisha: Hi.

Brigid Bergin: Do you work in the trades?

Keisha: I am, I am a painter, union painter. Currently, we work for the Housing Nitra.

Brigid Bergin: What prompted you to go into the trades?

Keisha: Years ago I did NEW Superwoman Program. After work, we learned some of the trades. It was the painting that picked us up. It was the money. It was the money and the freedom and being able to be home when the school bus came, and picking up overtime when you needed it, and opting out when you had other things that you needed to do. The security. Making the same amount as the men. [laughs]

Brigid Bergin: Sinade, I'm sure you're hearing this and thinking a lot of it sounds very familiar.

Sinade Wadsworth: Absolutely. Right on, sister. Like you said, the hours, you're able to pick up your children. That's very important. We wake up very early, but we also end early, so that's also a plus.

Brigid Bergin: Keisha, thanks so much for calling and sharing your story. Let's go to Renee in Manhattan. Renee, welcome to WNYC.

Renee: Hi. Hi, my name is Renee Boy. Hi.

Brigid Bergin: You work in the trades. Tell us your story about-- [crosstalk]

Renee: Yes. I work in the department of transportation, New York City Department of Transportation. I hold the highest rank in field operations. I want to just say, as soon as you walk out your door, you walk in on the sidewalks, women laid on sidewalks, you ride over potholes, women are repairing the potholes. You stop at a light, we are repairing the lights. We put up signs. We do it all.

Brigid Bergin: That's so great. Renee, thank you so much for your call and sharing your story. Let's go to Lindsay in Newark. Lindsey, welcome to WNYC.

Lindsay: Hi, this is Lindsey. We're the Certified Women General Contractors. We're GCs, and people are always surprised to hear that. I'm looking to debunk the myth that there are no women general contractors. It's absolutely very male-dominated, but what I really work to do is to try to infuse all the things, both stereotypical and great about women into my business. If we're working in a house with children, we bring purifiers. If we are doing a bathroom and it's their only bathroom, we put the toilet back in every single day. It's more effort on our part but if you have one bathroom, you need to use the toilet. Surprisingly, these are things that a lot of male contractors don't think about. I will say another thing that I do is really try to work with other women.

I find that a lot of male contractors are not very collaborative. Female contractors are. I work with a lot of designers. One is Whitney Marston. She has an amazing design studio in the city, and she actually is who told me to call in. We're just out here, like I said, [inaudible 00:10:07] about women in this trade.

Brigid Bergin: Lindsey, are you on site now?

Lindsey: I am.

[laughter]

Lindsey: Sorry. That's material.

Brigid Bergin: That's okay.

Lindsey: She said stop and call in, but the work still has to go on.

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for calling. I wonder, before you became a general contractor, did you have to work in a setting where you were potentially working for another man on Ed's part of his team and now you are leading the team?

Lindsey: What I will say is I've always had my own business and it wasn't necessarily that, but what has always fueled me is disruption, right? Disrupting industries and also being altruistic in my industry. It wasn't necessarily the breaking of the glass ceiling in the traditional way. I guess maybe it was because even as an entrepreneur you have to work to do that from disruption, right? From a disruptive standpoint.

Yes, I was in marketing, I've been in real estate for 30 years, flipped my own property, so dealt with male contractors and found myself working for them just to get my jobs done when I was paying. I guess what you're saying is absolutely true, even as an entrepreneur.

I think I've paid enough dues to not be so focused on shattering my own glass ceiling, but to be focused on shattering the overall glass ceiling, so this is the ultimate of that, being a female GC.

Brigid Bergin: Lindsey, thank you so much for your call and for your story. Sinade, you told a story in a speech you gave to the Robinhood Foundation a few years ago about a foreman who didn't like women on his job site. How common is that attitude and how much was that in your own experience?

Sinade Wadsworth: I'll say that how common, I think it's getting less and less at this point. That foreman happened to be an older age, meaning almost 70 years old. I think that that plays a huge part because we have a lot of new generation coming into the industry with progressive thoughts, progressive mindsets, and I think that that ultimately changes the culture for our sisters who are looking to join the industry. I will say that I have not had many bad experiences in that sense, only because I had so much mentorship and so much involvement with my union. I was very active, I was very involved with my leadership and I think that that protected me.

Brigid Bergin: We have lots of calls coming in on this particular topic that Ellie in Stony Brook, I think wants to talk about, excuse me, Stony Point. Thanks so much for calling WNYC.

Ellie: Hi there. My name is Ellie Kassner. I'm a third-generation owner of W.H. Kassner Incorporated. We are an ornamental and architectural ironworking company, so we operate in the miscellaneous metal trades. I'm a local 580 union member. I just wanted to share today that being a union member and a woman in the trades is one option for true pay equity. All journeymen, all people who work in the trades get paid the same amount. It's really a model for pay equity throughout the country.

Brigid Bergin: Ellie, is that what prompted you to join the union or go into the trades?

Ellie: Again, I'm third generation, so I grew up around the trades. I love that every day I go to work and something that wasn't there is there at the end. I take great pride in that work. I also think that it uses a part of my brain, a problem solving a working together in teams that I think is actually uniquely feminine and that every job I've worked on has been better by having different voices in the room.

Brigid Bergin: Ellie, thank you so much for your call and your story. I really appreciate it. This idea of pay equity is so interesting and I think Caitlin in Hoboken, New Jersey. Caitlin has another story too. Welcome to WNYC.

Caitlin: Hi. Thank you so much. Yes, I am training to be a land surveyor, and that is definitely a male-dominated field. I'm the only woman in my office and I often find myself at construction sites where there are a lot of people working there, and still I'm the only woman, but I will say that I really, besides the occasional double take and strange look of, "Oh wow, there's a girl on this construction site," no one's ever been rude to me, no one's ever underestimated me. I get paid the same as my male counterparts.

Brigid Bergin: It sounds like you're having a great experience, Caitlin. Thank you so much for your call. I want to go to Megan in Brooklyn. Megan, you're an electrician. Megan, are you there?

Megan: Oh, sorry, I had it on mute. I'm sorry.

Brigid Bergin: That's okay.

Megan: Yes, I've been in IBW local three for about 15 years.

Brigid Bergin: And what prompted you to get into the trades?

Megan: I was at a point in my life with a young child and looking for independence and a decent income and NEW gave me the opportunity. A lot of what the other sisters said has been true for me as well, and I think the important part was that I got to be part of union-building trades.

Brigid Bergin: How has that--

Megan: Safety and healthcare.

Brigid Bergin: There you go.

Megan: Sorry.

Brigid Bergin: No, that's great. I wanted you to expand on the benefits that you have experienced becoming a part of that union.

Megan: Well, I think with unions you have safer work sites. You have better pay, you have a brotherhood and a sisterhood to be a part of. I was able to raise my daughter with a comfortable income and give her opportunities, so it's changed my life.

Brigid Bergin: Megan, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it. I want to go to another call, Erin in Congress, New York, another electrician, I think. Erin, welcome to WNYC.

Erin: Hi. Good morning. I just wanted to call in about-- One is I love the segment and I was saying that I think that more little girls need to know that they can be women in trades. Our apprentices just put together a book for little girls to show that they could be electricians and the benefits of being a union electrician. I was really proud to work with the apprentices on that. Just better educating parents that they don't have to send their daughters off to college only to come home with debt to get a good job. I'm 23 years in, I make a great living, but I just think we need to educate young girls and parents as well that this is an option for women.

Brigid Bergin: Definitely. That the options are out there. Erin, thank you so much for your call and for making that point. Sinade I want to talk to you because you were also-- So many of the themes that you have already raised were reinforced by some of our callers in terms of issues of pay equity, the benefits of union membership and just the fact that this is a field with lots of options for women to have flexible work and good paying jobs.

Technically the New York City District Council of Carpenters is part of a larger United Brotherhood of Carpenters, a name that I think probably speaks to just how male-dominated this field is. What was it like for you getting involved in your union and what do you do in your current role?

Sinade Wadsworth: I'll say that yes, we are internationally known, we're international wide. Our big umbrella is the United Brotherhood of Carpenters. In my current role now, I am a area standards representative, so basically my main job is to go out and educate workers about their rights. I also do a lot of recruitments for job fairs, schools, and basically, I go and teach people about the opportunities they have to join the union. It wasn't always easy to become a union member. I'll say that over the last couple of years, programs like NEW, Building Works which is our own pre-apprenticeship program here in New York City for the Carpenters Union. These programs were made for the minorities, women, people in underserved communities. They have access, and not only do they have access, they have direct entry once they complete these pre-apprenticeship programs, which has been a game changer. When you talk about diversity I think that my union has really, really, really made so many great achievements. We have come such a long way, and for me to be in my position now, I was the youngest hired in this position in New York City. I'll say that was--

Brigid Bergin: Congratulations.

Sinade Wadsworth: Oh, thank you, a plus, I wouldn't be able to have done any of this if I didn't have wonderful mentors. My path has been not the norm, because I've moved so fast up into leadership. I have to say that my EST, Joe Geiger was one of my mentors, and I wouldn't be here without him. I wouldn't be here without my brothers, because they are the majority in the union. If you don't have men that are willing to stand up and speak up and be able to be comfortable with their choices about doing what's right, leadership is a thing.

I say that I'm very blessed to have had mentors, and I wouldn't be here without these powerful people because again, everybody's not a leader. When you have leaders that are progressive, when you have leaders that are willing to take on and give you a chance, it's amazing. I think that's what the union is all about. My union has definitely showed that through and through.

Brigid Bergin: Sinade, I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about, in addition to the role the union plays in benefits and development and career growth, what's the big difference between union and non-union jobs?

Sinade Wadsworth: Well, the first difference is representation. I'll say that as an organizer, area standards representative, I'll say that the biggest thing I see is the women holding flags in the non-union sector. Basically, when you are on a non-union job site, you're not given the ability to actually show what you can do. Most of these women are at a disadvantage because they're not even given that choice. Again, most of these women are holding stop signs in the street, holding flags.

Then our industry, you get on the job site, you're doing the same work as your male counterpart. There's no, all right, here's the easy work, you go over there. No, this is real. Guess what? If I'm learning something, you're going to learn too, because at the end of the day, again, we have equal pay. Same work, same pay, we really, really stand by that model. That also means same work, same pay, same opportunity. There is levels to organizing, there's levels to leadership within the union structure. If I went through an apprenticeship program, I became a journey-level worker, now I am a representative. There's levels to this. I can become an instructor if I want to.

Brigid Bergin: Wow.

Sinade Wadsworth: I can be a owner of a company if I wanted to. I can also move to Hawaii if I wanted to because my union is there also. Again, there is full mobility and opportunity within the union structure, whereas other people are stuck on maybe one project, doing one thing, and then when that project is over, they have to go and find somewhere else to work, and if they can find their job. I think that's the biggest thing is we have is representation and full mobility.

Brigid Bergin: I want to bring in one more caller to our conversation. Maria from Manhattan. Welcome to WNYC. What do you do?

Maria: I'm an artist who came to New York as an immigrant and needed to find work. I had a good education, so I knew how to cook or bake, but never thought of using it until I moved here and I had no profession. I was very grateful to do something. Little by little I was hired and eventually I had never really worked in the restaurant business. I worked catering or private chefing. By learning the trade and learning how to be professional to have the trade, then eventually I started the business and that became a restaurant so I could hire other people and women to give them an opportunity. That was quite an experience.

Brigid Bergin: Wow.

Maria: I loved the fact that there are people with unions. There is not really a chef union. I cooked at the James Beard House eventually, but it's a very hands-on, literally business, but it's also hospitality. Learning how to cook and knowing how to cook, I will always be grateful for my mother to teach me.

Brigid Bergin: Kitchens are also very male-dominated places.

Maria: Oh, no kidding because of course-- My name is Maria Samson, and I had a restaurant for 20 years that was called The Kitchen Club, and I was actually a member of the round table circle there at WNYC. I would always very much listen to the radio while I was prepping. Yes, it was a male-dominated environment. You wouldn't be able. I love these stories. I had one lady who worked with me and she was a carpenter. She's now become a skillful and already was, but she worked as a carpenter and I really appreciated that. She could also help us out if we had things, we always had construction. Yes, I love women in the trades that it gives them individual like power over their life. I heard one of the ladies speaking about that, it's so true, so important, and so grateful.

Brigid Bergin: Maria, thank you so much for your call. Congratulations on all the wonderful work you've done and for taking us on the journey with you, we are so grateful. Sinade, just in our last couple minutes, for women and girls who are out there thinking about moving into carpentry, what have you loved about your job?

Sinade Wadsworth: Well, the first thing I'll say is I've loved the ability to help people. I think that's the best takeaway from what I'm doing, the culture, learning about different trades within my organization, because we're not just carpenters, we do floors, we put up the walls, we do the ceilings, we have mill rights. There's so many levels to this industry. I think that every day you never know what to expect. I think that's exciting. I think that's something to always look forward to. Most importantly, again, the ability to help people and change people's lives is the best takeaway, I'll say.

Brigid Bergin: I love your story about NEW, seeing it on a train is such a quintessential New York City story. We're going to have to leave it there. My guest has been Sinade Wadsworth, a journey-level carpenter. She's also Ambassador Council Member for the nonprofit Non-traditional Employment for Women or NEW, Sinade. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Sinade Wadsworth: Thank you for having me. Take care

 

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.