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Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, senior politics reporter in the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom, filling in for Brian today. It's March, which means we are in the midst of Women's History Month, a time in which we celebrate those who busted through the glass ceiling and paved the way for a more equal society for women of the future, but what is the state of the glass ceiling throughout the world today? Well, The Economist released its annual Glass Ceiling Index, which measures the role and influence of women in the workforce in 29 countries.

Let's parse through the data and learn which countries foster gender equality and successful women and which countries are failing women, and, of course, where the United States stands in relation to the global community. With us now to decode the data and interpret the graphs is Lizzy Peet, lead data researcher for The Economist's Glass Ceiling Index. Lizzy, welcome to WNYC.

Lizzy Peet: Thanks very much for having me.

Brigid Bergin: Particularly our listeners, who are women who have lived abroad, we want to put the call out to you for this segment early. How does the attitude toward women in the country you lived in before compare to what you've experienced in the United States? Is it easier or harder to be a woman in the workforce in your home country or where you lived as an expat, or is it easier here, and what are the differences? Are there any policies in the countries abroad that you noticed improved gender equality?

Say if you're from Iceland, Sweden, Finland, some of those Norwegian countries that ranked highest on the Glass Ceiling Index, or if you're from Turkey, Japan, and South Korea, some of the countries that ranked lowest, how does that rank translate to your everyday life? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Of course, I meant Scandinavian countries. Lizzy, let's dig right into the data. What's being measured by The Economist's Glass Ceiling Index? Can you talk us through some of the metrics?

Lizzy Peet: Sure. Well, we started producing this index in 2013, so it's been running for 10 years. We're measuring 10 metrics across OECD countries, which are the rich world countries which are easier to compare each other to. These include things like the proportion of women who complete tertiary education, the labor force participation rate, the wage gap, the proportion of women in senior corporate roles, childcare costs, parental leave, and the proportion of women in parliament. We're really trying to get as broad of cross-sections we can to make the best judgment of where it's best to be a working woman.

Brigid Bergin: Lizzy, can you give us a little bit more background on why The Economist started to put together this index and what you're looking for over time?

Lizzy Peet: Of course. We decided to put it out for International Women's Day in 2013 because there was no real other rival index where you could see such a comprehensive snapshot comparing these different countries. Also, of course, we try and paint as fair a picture as possible, so we weighed the indicators very differently. For example, indicators which only affect women with children, we weigh slightly less than we do other indicators because they affect fewer women.

Overall, we're just trying to paint as accurate a picture as possible, and we felt there was no real rival to this. As it's our 10th year now, we've got a really interesting time series that we can be looking back on and trying to trace what trends are going in the right direction, what trends are going in the wrong direction.

Brigid Bergin: It is really fascinating data to see. It is served up, for our listeners, I really encourage you to check it out, in these graphs that paint some pretty stark pictures. Before we get into some of the 10 indicators, I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the results of the study more broadly. Keeping all of the indicators in mind, where are women really busting through the glass ceiling and where are they falling behind?

Lizzy Peet: Well, again, as I said, because we've got this really fascinating 10-year record now, I think almost every year, the top four-ish countries have been Scandinavian countries. This year Iceland has taken our number one spot. I think last year it was Sweden. They topped the metrics in various ways. They do really well in certain ways, which helps push them up constantly every year. The countries which are still lagging behind include South Korea and Japan, which have become bottom two in every year, I think, since we started running it.

The US is always roughly about average. I'd say the main takeaway I take from looking back at this data is that these positions seem pretty entrenched. These indicators move very, very slowly. Some countries go up slightly, some countries go down, but more or less, they're all roughly in a similar place they were 10 years ago, which is fairly disappointing in some ways.

Brigid Bergin: I want to put our call out to our listeners, again, particularly women who have lived abroad and have different experiences of being in the workforce there versus the United States. I'm speaking with Lizzy Peet, the lead data researcher for The Economist's Glass Ceiling Index, and we're looking at the latest data that they've put out from these 10 years of data. We want to hear from you. We want to hear about your experiences if it's easier or harder to be a woman in the workforce in the country where you moved from or where you are an expat.

What are the policies that you think contributed to that? Give us a call at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC or tweet @BrianLehrer. Lizzy, you were talking about some of the shifts in the ranking where the United States has fallen generally average. That doesn't seem totally surprising, but have you noticed any particular policies in any of the countries that affected whether countries were particularly successful in this index?

Lizzy Peet: Yes, of course. It's always very hard to prove direct causation, but you can definitely see links between policies and the fact that some countries are consistently doing well. For example, in America there have been moves to get more women in the Congress, so we've seen the number of female Congresswomen rise gradually. It's now just over a quarter. This year, overall in the entire group, that number moved over a third for the first time, which is a clear indication of progress. I know many countries have initiated real drives to get more women involved in politics and decision-making in general.

This year, as well, the number of women on corporate boards went over 30% for the first time. Again, that's a great thing. I think some countries, some instituted things like quotas, which are a quite stark tool to use but they can be better than nothing. In general, there are all these policies that are just encouraging women to really put themselves forward for more and more leadership roles in both politics and business, which I think are really encouraging. Then you get better child support policies, which Scandinavia have been leading the way on consistently.

Things like better child support, funding for childcare, the extension and equalization of parental leave, which makes it a lot easier for women not to have to choose between having a child and their career, which is consistently a problem, which is dragging them out of the labor force.

Brigid Bergin: I want to welcome one of our callers. The Brian Lehrer Show can obviously be streamed around the world. I want to welcome Dukha from Mongolia. Welcome to The Brian Lehrer Show.

Dukha: Yes, thank you. Very excited to be on the show.

Brigid Bergin: What is your experience in the workforce there? I will note that Mongolia is not part of The Economist's index, but what is the work experience there for you?

Dukha: I just wanted to share that Mongolia is a very small country sandwiched between two giants, Russia and China. In Mongolia, I would say, it's a very progressive country in terms of ensuring the participation of women in the labor market. It's a function of two things. First of all, we have a very small population, therefore women are needed to be part of the workforce, and secondly, it's due to the socialist history that we had previously 80 years. Now, if you look in the corporate world, most of the mid-management and some of the senior management are women.

Women are very, very active in the workforce. In the universities, up to 70% of the students are usually female. I myself am a CFO in one of the largest mining companies, and we have female CEO as well. This is all in the mining industry as well.

Brigid Bergin: Dukha, that is so fascinating. Lizzy, I wonder if there's anything from her story that makes you think of anything from the data that you've looked at for other countries. I know Mongolia, as I mentioned, is not part of the index, but certainly what she talked about in terms of the number of women in higher education and the women in upper management. Any reflections on Dukha's story?

Lizzy Peet: Yes, that's a really fascinating point. Thank you for making it. One thing I really think is interesting is how pointing out Mongolia's socialist history as being part of the reason why women have a slightly better time in the workforce there. A lot of people are constantly asking me, "Why is Scandinavia always top of this ranking?" People do point to the fact that it has a very strong projection of social democracy, egalitarians of culture, and the expectation that men and women can and should achieve exactly the same things.

I'd say other countries, including, unfortunately, the United States has much more of an expectation that women will stay at home. It's obviously fading away gradually, but in my opinion, not quickly enough, that women should stay at home. It's not as strange for women to think to leave the labor force when they have children. These things are so fascinating because it's such a difficult thing to really put your finger on why certain countries consistently do well and why some countries don't, whether it's cultural, structural, economic. I think that point about Mongolia is really fascinating.

Brigid Bergin: Dukha, thank you so much for calling. You may possibly be the show's first caller from Mongolia. I don't know that for sure. You are my first caller from Mongolia, so thank you so much for listening. We hope you call in again and keep listening to The Brian Lehrer Show.

Dukha: Thank you. Bye.

Brigid Bergin: Let's go to Lisa in Northport. Lisa, welcome to WNYC.

Lisa: Thank you for taking my call. I lived in Japan for 20 years and that was 21 years ago. My situation specifically was a little different because I was in science. I'm a native American, native English speaker, so I had a little bit of a different role. A lot of the women that I worked with and knew in Japan and I still know, and my son still lives there, so I have a good idea of what's going on, a lot of the companies and corporations, industries, education, it's supported by women who work for much lower salaries, and they're still considered to have their primary role as the caretakers at home taking care of children.

Even when they do work in big places, they tend to get home before the kids get home from school, and they don't get the benefits that men get. I really feel like a lot of the Japanese society is supported by these lower waged receiving women, and they're doing a whole lot to contribute without getting the benefits that the men are getting.

Brigid Bergin: Lisa, thanks for calling and sharing that experience. Lizzy, Japan is one of the countries that comes in lower on your index. Is it for the types of reasons that Lisa just explained from her own experience there?

Lizzy Peet: Yes. I mean, she really hit the nail on the head in a lot of ways there. Japan has consistently performed pretty disappointingly on our index. This year, it's in the 29th spot, and South Korea its neighbor is in 30th. I think where Japan often goes wrong is that a lot of women do seem to quit the labor force when they have children, which means their proportion of women in management and women on boards is very low. Only 13% of people in management are women in Japan, and there are only 16% of women on boards, which is pretty poor considering the OECD average is around a third.

Again, the fascinating thing about all these indicators, how much they interrelate and they interact with each other, and that also is directly correlated with a very low proportion of women in parliament. Only 10% of the Japanese parliament are women. You can see that leads to a whole array of problems, which is that these issues are not getting the attention, the focus that they need. It's becoming much more normal that women do drop out of the labor force and do miss out on promotions, which therefore in turn widens the wage gap because men are taking the highest-paying jobs.

I do know actually Japan is recently really woken up to this problem as if anything an economic toll that it's taking on the country. For example, I think their wage gap is among the highest in the group at about 22% at the median. They're about to introduce the law that will require large companies to every year report what their wage gap is, which follows a really interesting policy that I think was first introduced by the EU.

I know Britain has followed, I know Australia will soon follow, which forces large companies to report their gender pay gaps in an attempt to, not so much name and shame them, but to make it much less easier to hide the fact that this is going on and to possibly put something onus on these companies to correct it where it is particularly egregious.

Brigid Bergin: So interesting. I want to go to one more caller, Becky in Brooklyn. Becky, welcome to WNYC. I think you're going to bring up something that is another theme we've heard a lot of in this conversation related to childcare.

Becky: Yes. Hi. Thanks for having me. I lived in London in the UK and was working. I had my first child and got almost a year's maternity leave, which as you can imagine was a pretty incredible and useful way to spend the first year of your child's life, and then moved back to New York in the workforce. Four years later, I had my second child and obviously, a completely different experience having a child here in terms of 12 weeks leave.

It was paid leave. I was fully paid for six months on my leave in the UK, and in New York, a completely different scenario, obviously with a three months old trying to get back to work, trying to figure it all out. A completely different experience and made it much more of a struggle.

Brigid Bergin: Becky, thanks so much for calling and sharing a story that I'm sure a lot of mothers and families can relate to. Lizzy, your index looks at childcare costs, paid leave for both mothers and fathers. How does childcare and paid leave impact this gender gap, and what countries are actually excelling on these three fronts?

Lizzy Peet: Yes, that was a really fascinating story, the comparison between the UK and the US. The US is notoriously in our index for being the only country which doesn't provide any paid federal leave. It's basically up to the companies to decide. Luckily, Bill Clinton introduced 12 weeks of unpaid leave in 1993, but since then, there have been no additions. That's still the law of the land, which considering it's 30 years ago seems like it could be worth updating. A big reason why you're seeing women leave the labor force, particularly around the age of late 20s, 30s, and into their 40s which therefore also increases the wage gap is obviously because a lot of them go and have children.

It's very difficult to look after children and balance your life together if you're not being supported by the state in a sufficient way. I know that childcare costs in the US are also pretty high despite recent attempts to try and bring them down or at least provide further support. I think Joe Biden enacted a child tax credit, which basically sent a check of $300 to families with children, and that has since lapsed and doesn't look like it will be renewed, which is a shame because it was actually doing a lot of really good work reducing child poverty.

I think you obviously can't really untangle the fact that a lot of women have children, and there's a clear drop-off if you see a graph of why there's a gender pay gap. Basically, men and women are pretty similar throughout their 20s, and there's a very clear drop-off. It's pretty obvious that the one clear reason why that could be is because of the motherhood penalty, and the countries that are most successful in our ranking have done the most to try and get rid of this penalty. I would say another point about parental leave, which Scandinavia has led on again, is that they have instituted shared parental leave.

It's very much expected that the father will take as much leave as the mother. That does a lot of things. It obviously is very good for parents and for family bonding and stuff in the first year or so of life. Also, clearly, there's studies that have shown that it clearly reduces hiring discrimination and it takes away the fear that a lot of employers have around young women in their 20s, the fear that they'll suddenly take off months on end to have a baby. There are clear signs that progressive policies like that make a massive difference in pushing up countries in our ranking.

Brigid Bergin: You're listening to The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Bridget Bergin, filling in for Brian today, and I am speaking with Lizzy Peet from The Economist about their Glass Ceiling Index. We have some more to unpack here but just some quick business. This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. This is New York and New Jersey Public Radio live streaming at wnyc.org. Lizzy, one of the things that you look at in this study is related to higher education. Can you talk about which countries are at the top and the bottom and how the US did in this?

Lizzy Peet: Yes, sure. One very interesting measure is measuring the difference between men and women in higher education. We look at the gap between men and women. Basically in the majority of countries, women are actually quite far ahead on this matric, which I think is a very interesting thing to consider. The top countries in terms of women with higher education are Iceland, Estonia, Latvia, Sweden, and Finland, some of the usual suspects that we keep seeing at the top of this index. At the bottom, we have Austria, Turkey, South Korea, Germany, and Switzerland.

Remember this is a measure of the gaps between women and men. The US is about average. The gap is about 8% points between women and men, but if you actually look alone at the proportion of women that have completed tertiary education, you're about 54%, which is actually pretty impressive in the index. I think the OECD average is about 43%, so that's a 10% point difference. I think there's a lot of possible explanations for why that is that the US has such a high proportion of women completing tertiary education. Again, there's probably a lot of cultural explanations, behavioral differences in school.

I know that young girls tend to do better than boys at high school, they tend to concentrate better, things like that. There might be more expectations, and therefore, they'll go on to higher education. I think what it shows, in particular, is because women are disproportionately overachieving in higher education. The fact they're then a few years later going on to be underrepresented in the labor force just shows you that clearly, there's some structural issue here and that a lot of very talented and clearly possibly very beneficial for the economy young women are leaving the economy effectively. That's something that governments really need to focus on, I think.

Brigid Bergin: Lizzy, my producer flagged something really interesting about how South Korea's president campaigned on abolishing the gender ministry, and they're actually ranked last in your index. According to the BBC, nearly 90% of men in their 20s are anti-feminists. What do you make of that? Can you help us understand that and how that is reflected in some of the data in your index?

Lizzy Peet: Yes. That's a really important point. Again, the fact that we have all these years, we can see how-- I think there has been a possible backlash against some of the MeToo movement, particularly in South Korea, and a backlash against the general empowerment of women over the last 10 years or so. I know that South Korea falls really far behind in terms of maternity leave and in terms of representation in parliament.

Again, I feel like I'm repeating myself sometimes, but when young girls see women in parliament and they see women in senior business roles, it feels much more achievable that they could follow suit and that there is an important place for them in those kinds of positions of power. For example, if you look at why the gender wage gap is persisting and has stagnated for a very long time, it's stayed pretty stagnant for the last 10 years or so, you do have to wonder, is this all structural, or is there some cultural issue coming into play?

Are women coming into these jobs and missing out on promotions, missing out on being elevated to positions of power because sexism is one of the oldest phenomenon in human society? Is there still this perception that women shouldn't quite be trusted with economic and political power? I think that's a really interesting point. I do think there are cultural issues at play here, particularly in the last few years since the MeToo scandal erupted.

Brigid Bergin: Sure. You are getting to this point that I really wanted to bring us to, but can you talk some more about the correlation between more women being represented in positions of power, whether they are in managerial positions, political office, and women faring better in these indicators? Where do you see the correlation, and how does it show up?

Lizzy Peet: Again, it's very easy to make some very sweeping statements and generalizations here, and you can't implicitly read causation into these things. It can't be a coincidence that countries that have a lot of women on corporate boards, also, therefore tend to have more women in management proportionately and also tend to have more women taking the GMAT, for example, which is one of our indicators, which is basically meant to be a measure of how many women are likely to go on to do MBAs and therefore enter the corporate world.

We're trying to look at the whole pipeline, if that makes sense, of where women are falling behind in their gradual career progression. I think it's a fascinating point. I think if you look at parliament in particular, New Zealand, actually, this year is the first to have a majority female parliament as I said earlier, and I think there have been studies that show that more female legislators means more focus on issues that affect "women." Although I believe in my view, these issues affect the entire economy and the entire society. There is evidence.

For example, in America in 1991, there were 29 women in the House of Representatives, and in 2022, that number has gone up to 125. During that time, we've seen major pieces of legislation which have helped women, for example, moves to paid leave or moves to some enshrinement of child benefits and helping out with childcare, and other things that we don't matter about index but other things, for example, combating violence against women, combating hate crimes, and things like that. I think there is clear evidence that having more women in power helps women who aren't in power.

Brigid Bergin: Well, we will have to leave it there for today. My guest was Lizzy Peet, lead data researcher for The Economist's Glass Ceiling Index. Lizzy, thanks so much for joining us and for the great work. The index is really a fascinating thing to take a look at.

Lizzy Peet: Thanks so much for having me. Thank you.

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