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Brian Lehrer: It’s The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Breaking just now, I've just seen this come across, Pennsylvania has voted to certify the presidential election result, Joe Biden won there by 88,000 votes, and that's now certified in Pennsylvania. That puts another nail in the coffin of President Trump's attempt to nullify the vote. Theoretically, the State Senate and State House and Pennsylvania and Michigan and elected officials in Georgia could still overturn the certifications.

That would be really difficult, and so the transition to the Biden and Harris administration has taken some major leaps in the last day with all of that. The announcement of all those cabinet nominations will continue to follow both tracks, that is the transition and Trump's last gasp efforts to try to stop it. Yesterday was big with the certification in Michigan, and now today, the certification in Pennsylvania, for making it harder for Republican governors and state legislators to just cancel people's votes.

As we've elevated that issue on the show, to make sure we were shining a light on the process, and they couldn't do this undercover of people not paying attention or just too casually saying it was over while they were trying to flip it, not even in the courts, but in the political process. We can now say that that seems to really be slipping away from them. As Biden and Harris prepare to govern, now we'll ask, what was Kamala Harris's effect on the outcome of the election, and how does that set up the new administration?

We’re also asking the segment, why did white women vote mostly for Donald Trump? Again, we'll explore this question now with Kat Stafford, national race and ethnicity reporter for The Associated Press, and Julie Kohler, host of the New Wonder Media Network podcast, White Picket Fence, which explores what she calls "the fractured and often frustrating politics of white women." She is also Senior Advisor to the Democracy Alliance, and fellow in residence at the National Women's Law Center. Julie and Kat, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC today.

Julie Kohler: Thank you.

Kat Stafford: Good to have you.

Julie: It's great to be with you.

Brian: Kat Stafford at the AP, let me go to you first, just for a minute on this breaking news from Pennsylvania, and putting it together with what happened in Michigan yesterday because I know you've been reporting on this.

Kat: Yes. I think this is something that I posted on Twitter yesterday, I think that what we saw in Michigan and what we are seeing in Pennsylvania is a lot of relief. There is relief that now these results are finally official, but a lot of voting advocates that I've been talking to, they've been putting [unintelligible 00:03:06]. They're saying, "This is great, but let's really dive in and talk to how this was in direct attack and thought on the voting rights, specifically for a lot of voters of color, even to be more specific Black voters."

They are pledging to remain vigilant in the future. They're concerned about what sort of precedence this sort of thing will have on Black voters. Again, I just want to remind folks that Black Americans have only been federally guaranteed the right to vote for 55 years in this country. When a lot of voters have been watching what's been unfolding over the past couple of weeks, there's a very real fear.

Brian: Now, here's part of a letter to the editor of the Tampa Bay Times, shortly before Election Day, from a local resident identifying herself as Judy Hogan from Tampa, and it says in part, "For my vote, I will cast mine for what I see as the lesser of two evils. We are avoiding the elephant in the room in my opinion, the probability that if Democratic presidential nominee, Joe Biden, is elected, vice presidential candidate Kamala Harris will be our president during Biden's term."

This writer says, "I cannot imagine her negotiating deals with world leaders. I cannot imagine her being the commander-in-chief of the greatest military in the world, nor can I imagine her leading us out of the pandemic and bringing back our economy. She certainly could not, in my opinion, negotiate a peace treaty in the Middle East," says this writer.

It continues, "I don't think we are really thinking this through. He would have had my vote if he had chosen Amy Klobuchar, however, I am left with the thought of Harris becoming president and I cannot cast my vote for that ticket."

Julie Kohler, I was surprised when I first saw that letter that the Tampa Bay Times would even publish it because the writer doesn't give any reasons for thinking Harris would be worse than Trump or Biden at those things. They let her state it without backing it up, but I'm curious if that letter rings true to you, as a sentiment that was maybe more common that has been reported on for why Trump did as well as he did.

Julie: Yes. I think what is hard to differentiate is how much of the white vote for Trump, and including white-women’s votes for Trump, was based on really this racist and sexist messaging that we heard targeted at Kamala Harris, by Trump and by many others, many other Republican officials, and then, how much of it really seems sort of part and parcel with the overall kind of white identity politics, that is so much Donald Trump's brand. That particular voter, she made claim that she would have voted for Biden had he chosen a different running mate.

I guess I'm skeptical, because it seems to me that if people are receptive to the racist and sexist attacks on someone like Kamala Harris, who is eminently qualified to be vice president-elect and serve as vice president, to me, it speaks to the fact that they were probably persuaded by the overall brand of white identity politics that Donald Trump really embodies.

Brian: Kat Stafford, was that letter an anomaly based on your reporting during the campaign?

Kat: I don't believe so. I think that might shock some folks, but no, and I say this because we know that vice president-elect Kamala Harris, she faces what I call the "double-edged sword of racism and sexism." To have that come together, I think what we are seeing is the coverages of both of those things, that are being thrust to the forefront. To the point about white identity, I think that is a huge component here. We have to note that a lot of white American said in 2016 they were supporting Trump because of his policies, because of the fact that he was going to bring back his manufacturing jobs.

When we look again in 2020, a lot of folks have raised the question of, why are you supporting him now, when in fact, a lot of the things that he said would happen did not happen in your communities. Some experts that I've been talking to, they say that this is really a sign that there are a lot of Americans that were not only willing to turn a blind eye to racism, but they, in fact, outright agree with a lot of Trump's rhetoric and his views on race. I think that it's something that a lot of activists and others are really saying, America really needs to reckon with the fact that racism is still deeply rooted in this country.

Brian: Listeners, how much was Kamala Harris either a plus factor or a minus factor in your vote for president? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. If you voted for Donald Trump, how much was it because, like that writer to the Tampa Bay Times, you might have considered Biden if he had chosen someone like Amy Klobuchar, but Kamala Harris, for whatever reason, was more threatening to you?

646-435-7280. Anybody listening like that? 646-435-7280. People who voted for Joe Biden, how much was Kamala Harris an explicit plus factor for you, or how much did you vote for Joe Biden in spite of Kamala Harris also being on the ticket because you have some negative judgments of her? 646-435-7280.

Let's have this conversation. I think with all the intense things that have been going on since Election Day, this conversation hasn't really been had in very many places. Let's have at least a piece of it here. 646-435-7280, with Kat Stafford, national race and ethnicity reporter for The Associated Press, and Julie Kohler, host of the podcast, White Picket Fence, which explores what she calls "the fractured and often frustrating politics of white women."

Kat, let me stay with you for a second since you're with the AP. Is it possible to estimate or look at any data that gives us any clues to how much Harris on the ticket wasn't net plus factor or net minus factor? I didn't see it in the AP vote cast exit poll question set, at least a part of it that I was able to find. Is there reporting, is there data, do you happen to know?

Kat: No, we have not parsed through that data yet, as far as I know. We do have data that really breaks down how women voted in. You said this earlier, we know that white women, just by a slight percentage, they voted more for President Trump, but the thing that I really like to point out is that we know that Black women overwhelmingly voted in support of a Biden-Harris ticket.

I just want to add that when they stepped on that stage, when Harris was wearing that white suffragette, there were so many Black women and little girls of color across this country who would get overcome with emotion because not only did she ascend to the highest political office of a Black woman that has ever happened, right, but she, they believe, will usher in and open up new doors for more Black women and women of color to achieve new heights in this political room.

We know that Black women are largely under-represented in politics, but they are hoping that with the Harris victory, that that means we will start to see far more representative politics across the country.

Brian: Julie Kohler, how would you assess how much of whatever the reaction to Harris was was about race and how much was about gender, if it's possible to pick those apart?

Julie: I think it's really hard to pick those two apart, but I think I'd like to go back to a couple of other things. One thing is, every four years we have this continued surprise that narrow majorities or pluralities of white women favor the Republican presidential candidate. What I think is really important to note is that this is a long-standing pattern in the US, for about the last 70 years that's been the case, that narrow majorities of white women have favored Republican presidential candidates.

Moreover, these kinds of white identity politics that Donald Trump employed throughout the campaign, his appeals to what he called "suburban women," or quote "suburban housewives," but what we clearly knew he meant as white women, those racist appeals to white women in particular, that form of white identity politics has also been very effective with numbers of white voters over the years.

I think we need to stop being surprised sadly by the fact that this form of racist white identity politics actually resonates with many voters. That said, I think the one thing that we also have to look at, that is obscured by the exit poll data, is that we did see movement among some subgroups of white women voters this election. There was a lot of focus obviously on this subgroup of white college-educated women in the suburbs.

It does appear that in many, especially critical states, for the election, in states like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, and Georgia and Arizona, there was some movement of those voters, but moreover in places where there's like new organizing infrastructure, has targeting that broader range of so-called persuadable, white women voters, including those without college-educated or without college degrees.

We also saw a movement there in the states like Michigan and Wisconsin. While I think we can make some conclusion and draw some conclusions about the overall state of race and gender and how it affects political identities and perceived political interests, I think it's also really important to highlight the fact that organizing matters, and we really need to be investing in more of it.

Brian: Duke in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Duke.

Duke: Hi, Brian. I'm a huge fan, sustaining member. I love you. Listen, my mother, she's in Florida, she's a huge- she loves Fox news, she loves Trump. What I found very interesting in several of her arguments, she told me that if Biden wins, that the Democrats are going to enact the 25th Amendment, they're going to have him declared unfit for office so that Kamala could become the president.

My mother's convinced that Kamala was decided to be the president the whole time, and that once Kamala becomes president, basically, the United States is going to turn into Cuba and become this communist-socialist whatever. I just wanted to make that comment that I just thought it was interesting that my mother is a white woman and yet she still really- she doesn't like Kamala, and I think she could probably even live with Biden, but Kamala absolutely not.

Brian: Has that whole theory. It goes all the way to Cuba. Even though so many things, and I think Brandon in Suffolk County has a similar story, Brandon, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Brandon: Hi, Brian. Sorry. There's a little background noise. Yes, very, very similar, all the conspiracy theories of-- It goes beyond Fox News, whatever, YouTube is putting out that they're not believing. I'm sorry.

Basically-- Just one second. I'm just at work, sorry. Please tell me if there's a problem, but yes, very much, even the women, every woman in my-- I'm like the oddball Republican in the group, and all the women on my wife's side, all my- I'm one of six, all my brothers, my sister are all huge Trump fans, they all buy into all the conspiracy theories. You can't say the logic in the fact you're here on this radio station and express that to them, and they just come, they don't want to hear it, because they don't believe it, they believe the conspiracy theories. It's actually kind of sad.

Brian: Brandon, thank you for your call. I appreciate it. Kat Stafford from the AP, there were two callers saying the same thing. I guess it wasn't even completely underground. People in the Trump campaign, people supporting the Trump campaign would say Biden isn't really going to be running the show. The radicals are going to be running the show. Sometimes they would point to AOC or she needs to leave, or members of Congress, it's hard for them to run the show, but sometimes they would point directly to Kamala Harris, right?

Kat: Yes. Again, for me, I guess, especially being a Black journalist, being a Black woman, it is not shocking or surprising to see this, but what we do know is that Harris was a target of much more misinformation as anyone else during this presidential campaign. A lot of this was fueled by racist claims. These were inaccurate claims about her record as a senator and also as a prosecutor.

We saw a lot of people trying to fight that back, but again, we know that social media is huge issue of misinformation that's being spread. There are a lot of organizations such as a Higher Heights and She the People who have worked very hard and have actually alerted media and told us to expect this very thing, because again, Harris is someone that represents womanhood, but also she is a Black woman. Again, we expect to see this vitriol lead her way.

Brian: Here is Lisa and Fairfield, Connecticut, originally from Kamala Harris, California. We see her on WNYC. Hello.

Lisa: Hi, Brian. I'm a huge fan. Thanks for taking my call.

Brian: Glad you're on.

Lisa: Yes. I surely was not a huge fan of Kamala Harris. I am from originally California, and I just felt like she had been running for office and not really treating her constituents as well as she could have in her position. My opinion really changed after the VP debate. I thought she did a fantastic job and I'm seeing her next to Pence and seeing how she made sure her voice was heard and she was not topped over, made me really proud. I was really excited on election night to think of a woman and a woman of color being a vice president. I'm really excited to see what she's going to do for this country with President-elect Biden.

Brian: Lisa, thank you so much. Julie Kohler, there has been a Black man as president, but never any kind of woman as president or vice. What does that suggest? For what Harris has to prove, if it's fair to put her in that position, or what sexist perceptions of her she'll have to overcome? I guess, especially if she hopes to possibly become president after Joe Biden.

Julie: Yes. We know that there are just incredible additional barriers for women in politics, and particularly for Black women in politics. Not only do they face, as Kat mentioned, and we saw this very clearly in this cycle, this massive disinformation campaign targeting Kamala Harris, but we see this up and down the ballot at every level, it is harder for Black women candidates, in particular to raise money. They are underfunded in their campaigns. They tend to face more primary opposition than white male candidates in particular.

Their level of excellence is usually rated much higher. Essentially, the bar is just so much higher for women of color candidates, and particularly for Black women candidates, that they have to just continue to overcome. I think, as your last caller really highlighted, Kamala Harris has risen to this occasion, and she performed exceptionally well in the debate. She made an incredibly moving speech when election was declared, and I think is prepared to really rise to those expectations, but we do know that these biases are very strong, that they affected voting patterns, and that they will continue to be barriers not only for her, but for other candidates that are trying to make our democracy more reflective and representative.

Brian: We're going to run out of time shortly. Kat Stafford, for you as a national, race, and ethnicity reporter for The Associated Press. Do you have any thoughts on how the fact that we had Barack Obama as president either paves the way or creates new kinds of questions of any kind that makes it easier or harder, or whatever metric you want to use, for Kamala Harris as she becomes vice president?

Kat: Oh, yes, she's going to face a lot of significant challenges. Also, she's going to have a lot of support, support that's coming for women across the nation, support that is especially coming from the Black community. She was on the ground to Detroit, one of the things that I will always remember is how she was able to really connect with folks that have been just ravaged by the COVID crisis, folks that have lost their jobs.

I think people are hoping and expecting that she would take her personal experience, being a person of color, being a Black woman, and going back to the White House and really addressing these long-standing issues that we've seen in America. Yes, she has great challenges, but I think she also has a lot of opportunity to finally and hopefully correct a lot of the ills that have faced this nation.

Brian: Kat Stafford, national, race, and ethnicity reporter for The Associated Press, and Julie Kohler, host of The New Wonder Media Network Podcast, White Picket Fence, which explores what she calls "the fractured and often frustrating politics of white women." She was also a Senior Advisor to the Democracy Alliance, and a fellow and residence at the National Women's Law Center. Thank you both so much for joining us.

Julie: Thank you, Brian.

Kat: Thanks.

Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, more to come.

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