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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we are going to reintroduce you to a familiar voice, Jami Floyd as she takes on a new role here at the station. As of Friday, Jami stepped down from our hosting gig on All Things Considered. This week she's officially launching WNYC's new Race & Justice Unit. Jami joins me now to talk about the ways in which this unit will be helping us all to think about COVID, the election, and much more. We'll touch on some of today's news relevant to the unit, the police killing of Daniel Prude in Rochester, and the US Justice Department taking over President Trump's defense in the defamation suit filed against him by E. Jean Carroll, the woman accusing Trump of raping her in the '90s.

Did you hear this news? Wait, what? How did the United States government become the defendant in that case? Trump and Bill Barr can just do that? Hi, Jami, congratulations on your new role.

Jami Floyd: Well, Brian, congratulations I think to all of us, it's a big step forward. I'm very happy to be here with you again.

Brian: First up, a lot of news organizations are feeling pressure to respond in the wake of the George Floyd death at the hands of police and the protests thereafter by looking at their own newsrooms, and they are scrambling toward diversity, but your effort was already underway?

Jami: That's right. I think, Brian, not just news organizations, but banks, corporations, cultural institutions, all taking a look inside because of tremendous public pressure, and I would hope also just the desire to do right. Brian, as you know, a group of about 40 or so New York Public Radio employees travel to The National Memorial for Peace and Justice.

It's in Montgomery, Alabama. We went down last December in 2019.

That's a museum which I think many people know examines our long and painful history in this country, from enslavement to the present day, with mass incarceration, but it's also a national monument to the 4,000 or more souls who have been lynched in this country since its founding. When you go there, Brian, they ask you to not just experience this painful national tragedy, reckon with it, but also to think about what you will do with that experience when you return to your communities, and to your work, to your region.

We did just that. When we came back in December 2019, we wanted to do something concrete with what we had learned there. A group of us began developing a plan to cover race, class, and social justice, with greater intentionality than we had ever before, and we began to think about accountability, journalism in our proposal. New York Public Radio, WNYC has always been about accountability. We began meeting and talking about it almost weekly. That was long before the pandemic. Then, when the protests began in Minneapolis, and across the country, Brian, we were ready to get started with the work.

Brian: Why, some people ask, if a news organization is doing our jobs the right way, do we need this kind of a unit defined like this? Shouldn't we be thinking about race and just outcomes every day in all our journalism?

Jami: Right, Brian. I get this question every single time I talk about this unit. Of course, Brian, in an ideal world, we wouldn't need a Race & Justice Unit, and that's the world I want to get to with this work. If I'm honest about it, Brian, I think that throughout my career, I've worked with good people who have done their best to do good journalism, even before I got to WNYC. Certainly, here, our people who think about these issues, I would say, perhaps more than most, but Brian, we are all raised in a racist culture.

Even those of us who are Black and brown, we are awash in it from our earliest consciousness, in our media, our textbooks, now in our social media, it is everywhere, cultural institutions, healthcare businesses, and even in our journalism. Just trying story by story is not enough when institutional, structural racism is at the core of the problems that plague our society, the problems we cover as journalists. We believe here that we have to restructure our newsroom to think about this, and do the work writ large.

Brian: Say more, what specifically will you be doing?

Jami: Okay. Brian, I realize the work of race and justice could be overwhelming. We're going to tackle four key buckets as you indicated in your introduction. We're going to look at four key things to start. COVID-19, of course, is primary. For us, that's going to include the health disparities, educational disparities. Now we're going back to school, so we're going to closely examine the back-to-school disparities. The economy, as it struggles to restart after COVID. Justice reform, and most immediately the election, all through the prism of race, class, accountability, and all of these intersect, Brian. We already have reporters, of course, on all of these beats.

Our role with this unit will be to work collaboratively with our colleagues to cover these topics, what we traditionally have called beats, with race and justice at the forefront of our reporting in ways in which it just has not been traditionally, in our journalism.

Brian: Now, you're going to be the editor of this Race & Justice Unit. For people like me who are used to hearing you host All Things Considered every day, maybe they are wondering, even though I already know the answer to this question, are you just going to be an editor or where can we hear your reporting?

Jami: Well, Brian, is that an invitation? I'll be back. [laughs]

Brian: It is, standing.

Jami: Yes, I'll continue to do the work I've done with you over the years as a legal analyst and editor, so we'll keep talking Supreme Court. If we have time, we can do a little bit of that today, and the other legal issues of the day as they continue to press upon us with the Trump administration and the Black Lives Matter issues that are upon us, and have been since our founding, of course.

We're also pulling together a team, Brian, and that team will fan out across all of our platforms. Gothamist, hopefully in the green space, as it continues to be virtual, but then we'll reopen, and then on all of our shows. We again, will partner throughout the building, and it will be a collaboration with all of our platforms and people. We talk about people first and foremost, and that's where we will be.

Brian: I'll pull the curtain on one behind-the-scenes thing, you and I are already talking about developing a race and justice series within our 30 Issues in 30 Days pre-election series that's going to start in a couple of weeks. More to come listeners on that. If you just joined--

Jami: I wanted to let you make that announcement, I didn't want to steal that thunder. [laughs]

Brian: There we go. Listeners, if you're just joining us, our guest is our own Jami Floyd who has been our All Things Considered host but is now the editor of the new WNYC Race & Justice Unit. You brought up the Supreme Court. As you say, you'll keep coming on as our legal editor to talk about the court as we have in the past, first Monday in October, their opening day is just around the corner. What are you looking at?

Jami: Well, first of all, I don't think they're going to be back on the bench. They've not made an official announcement yet, but it's looking like they will continue to be remote, which is, again, unprecedented but good for us, because we can listen in real-time as we did in the spring. There are a bunch of good cases, but let's keep it short. Obamacare, back before the justices, can you believe it, Brian? Again.

Brian: Haven't they settled this yet?

Jami: [laughs] No, it's back. Another chance challenge to its constitutionality. I won't get into the details here, but more for us to talk about Brian, with Obamacare and hugely important to Americans, health care, at its core. Then, there's a case out of Philadelphia that involves foster care, same-sex couples, and Catholic charities. A lot of big issues there, constitutional issues, same-sex couples, and freedom of religion, and foster care, really a big case.

Then, there's a Texas death row inmate Billy Wardlow, who's petitioning the court to stay his execution because his murder he committed. He's not saying he didn't commit it, but he was just 18 years old at the time, so the issue of juveniles on death row, and many more cases, but those are three right now that I have my eye on.

Brian: All right. We'll look to that Supreme Court opening day, first Monday in October as it is every year, even if remote in 2020. Let's talk about some issues in the news today, Jami. One is that the police chief up in Rochester and the whole police department leadership apparently are retiring. They're using the word retiring, not resigning, from what I've seen, following the outrage over the death in police custody of Daniel Prude, who for people who haven't caught up on this case yet, was having a mental health crisis.

There are accusations of covering up how he died. The police said drug overdose, but the medical examiner said homicide through complications of asphyxiation after they covered and pressured his head. They deny they hid the truth, but now they're leaving their jobs. Do you think the retirements do anything to prevent horrors like this in the future?

Jami: Right. Well, we are covering this in the newsroom. I do think, Brian, that this is again, about structural change, not posturing with resignations, or retirements, whatever you want to call them. If the chief, La'Ron Singletary is his name, could have made real change in reforming the RPD, the Rochester Police Department, then he should have stayed to do it. He's African American. He's a native son of Rochester. As of Sunday, Brian, he said he wasn't going anywhere. Here he is on Sunday.

La'Ron Singletary: I think people do want change. People do want reforms. Even prior to whether Mr. Prude's or Mr. Floyd's death, there have been calls for change. I think that's what we have been continuously doing. That's what we will always do.

Jami: That is the former chief La'Ron Singletary, but yesterday, as you say, Brian, he resigned. I do think if he had stayed, he and his top brass, I think about seven of them resigned, would have been more of a distraction than anything else. They probably had to go. The real question, now there's also a chance that the mayor, Lovely Warren, will step down. The real question that really can't be lost in all of this, Brian, is why was this man treated this way?

Naked in winter, sleet coming down, bag over his head, left to die in police custody. Why are Black people treated this way in America? This is the question we have to grapple with. This is why we're forming this unit actually, Brian, to take it back to the Race & Justice Unit. The structural change that has to happen is the first and foremost question we need to answer. Whether the chief resigns, whether the mayor resigns, that is not enough if another chief or mayor step into their shoes and structural change does not result.

Brian: The Buffalo news has an editorial today. Of course, Buffalo is the bigger city up there not too far from Rochester, saying they don't like the phrase, "defund the police", which they call misleading, but they cite a Washington Post statistic that a quarter of the people killed by police, a quarter, are people having mental health crises in the moment. In most cases, it should be different agencies that respond, and resources could be shifted to those agencies. That's a shocking stat to me that I didn't know, that a quarter of the police killings of this country are people in mental distress in the moment. Do you see any real reform taking place along those lines? I know we've been watching this in New York City.

Jami: Well, so this is the kind of structural change we need to see. I was a criminal defense attorney and this does not shock me, because I would say about a quarter of my clients had mental health problems, and really should not have been arrested, but should have been treated. Should not have been in jail or in prison, but needed treatment for their mental health problems.

In my reporting experience, defund the police means different things to different people, Brian. I would say it's a catchy phrase, it works well at a protest. It does seek to encapsulate the vision of structural reform, but Brian, when we get down to the business of real reform, I would suggest, and now my Twitter feed will explode, @jamifloyd, it's a bit of a misnomer because it threatens to undermine the necessary reforms in policing.

Most people who say defund the police, I think mean, are advocating for demilitarizing police departments, redirecting money for social services, allowing officers to focus on the core duties of preventing, or in some cases, solving crime. The stat you have does not surprise me. Our own Cindy Rodeiguez has done a lot of reporting around policing and mental health. She's found much the same thing. Police have increasingly been asked to be social workers, mental health counselors, domestic dispute arbiters, roles they know nothing about really. They should be outside the purview of police department.

Defund the police, I don't think means abolishing the police altogether, as much as it should mean changing the role to be played by police officers in our society, de-emphasizing the police. We need to get to a place where we call the appropriate social service agency for the particular crisis we face as citizens.

Brian: All right, Justice editor, put on your following the Federal Justice Department hat.

Jami: My favorite hat.

Brian: Give me your take on this extreme head scratcher of the E. Jean Carroll case. By way of background, listeners, last year, the writer, E. Jean Carroll, went public with an accusation that Donald Trump raped her in the '90s. He denied it and said they never met, but there's a photo of them together. She sued him for defamation, seems like a dispute between two individuals, Jami, so how is the Justice Department getting involved and taking over this case as if the United States is the defendant?

Jami: Well, they just are, Brian. That's it.

Brian: Because we can.

Jami: Because we can. Yes, we can. It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, "Yes, we can". They filed papers in court which they're free to do, seeking to assume responsibility for defending President Trump in this lawsuit. They went to federal court. It's a very short filing, five pages, and you can, I urge everyone to read it. They went to the US District Court here in New York. They're arguing that he made his alleged, to President Trump, made his alleged defamatory remarks, here we go, Brian, ready? In the performance of his official duties as president.

That they're saying is what makes this now a United States case, the real defendant here now becomes the United States. They're stepping in to defend the case. They're saying this also would remove the case to federal court, which in my view, would result in its dismissal. That's their unique argument, Brian, and because I'm a lawyer, I can put that hat on and give you the argument, but I think it's a pretty faulty one.

Brian: A judge will have to approve this. This is a request. They can't just say Trump is no longer an individual defendant, now it's against the US government.

Jami: That's correct. It's a motion to be allowed to represent President Trump in this case.

Brian: We're almost out time. A number of people are calling in. I'm not going to have time to go through these calls tick, tick, tick, but about the Race & Justice Unit that you're now heading up at the station, and callers who are men and predominantly white are calling in. I'm going to summarize these rather than going call, call, call, which we don't have time for. Basically asking, will you include police officer voices? Will you include white voices? A third one is will you include men being discriminated against by women, or the fact that women get shorter prison sentences than men, asserts one of the callers, if that's true.

Jami: All right, so absolutely. When we talk about structural reform of the justice system, we must include those who've worked within it. I think very often of the police chief in Dallas who resigned after five of his officers were shot by a sniper. He talked and one of his officers committed suicide after a Facebook post there, about the pressures of being a Black officer in Dallas. He's a reformer, but also a former police chief and he was Black himself, African American. Yes, we must include the voices of police officers, as I always have in my work.

I recently interviewed a Black sergeant here in New York. You can find it at wnyc.org, that interview, and I'll repost it on my Twitter feed today. A Black woman seargent talking about her work here in New York with the NYPD. We will include all voices because without all voices, we cannot have reform. The conversations have to occur, Brian, across the divide, but at the same time, we must understand that so many voices have been excluded. I understand the concern, especially after the Me Too era, that sometimes there are false allegations.

I was a defense attorney after all, I believe in the presumption of innocence. I want to put that out there, but so often, there have been voices that have been unheard, oppressed, silenced. We need to bring those voices to the fore, after not just decades, but centuries of silence and oppression of those voices. This is about equity. This is about equality. This is about lifting all voices so that-- I like to say, Brian, that we don't give voice at WNYC, we amplify all voices throughout the communities we serve. That's what we seek to do.

No one should be fearful about the work we do, because we're shining a spotlight, and with sunlight and spotlight comes truth, and justice, and liberty for all, which is the language our founding documents, right?

Brian: Right indeed. WNYC's Jami Floyd, no longer the host of All Things Considered as she stepped away from that role to be the founding Race & Justice editor in that new unit here at WNYC. Look for their work coming out on All Things Considered on Morning Edition, on other shows. This show, proud to be a part of the Race & Justice Unit in collaborations that we'll be doing together, including in our upcoming 30 Issues in 30 Days segment, pre-election, some of the segments out of those 30. Jami, again, congratulations on the new role. It's very exciting. I can't wait to see, and hear, and be part of the work you'll be doing.

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