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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. It's the first of the month, let's talk about the rent. Are you paying it? Can you pay it? A lot of people can't and a lot of people aren't. What's more at the end of this month, the New York state eviction moratorium enacted for the coronavirus will expire, so should the moratorium lapse, there will be implications for so, so many nationally and locally and we'll be starting 2021 with yet another deep crisis.

That's a federal eviction moratorium on top of a state eviction moratorium. At this point it's not clear what's going to happen at either level. Joining me now to make sense of the situation is Judith Goldiner, attorney-in-charge at the Legal Aid society’s Civil Law Reform Unit. Judith, welcome back to WNYC.

Judith Goldiner: It's a pleasure, Brian.

Brian: Listeners. We want your stories now, help us report this story. If you're a renter who's been struggling to make ends meet in the pandemic, what would the end of any eviction moratorium mean for you? Or are you one of the people who's gotten an eviction notice despite the moratorium? We sometimes get calls from folks who've been served eviction notices during our AskTheMayor segment, we got one last week. For example, there are loopholes in the New York state eviction moratorium and we can't take every call like that, that we get for the mayor.

We can take more of them in this segment. If you want to tell us your eviction stories, we have our guests from legal aid, but also just your rant, hardship stories, such a large percentage of people are not paying their rent or are late with their rent, or are paying percentages of their rent rather than the whole thing in the pandemic, call and tell us where you're at right now and where do you think policy needs to meet you? 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 for Judith Goldiner from Legal Aid or tweet a question @BrianLehrer. Judith, remind us what moratorium or moratoria are in effect right now and who do they cover?

Judith: The important thing to know is we used to have an eviction moratorium that covered everybody. That it said you cannot be evicted during this public health crisis and that expired--

Brian: Is that state or federal?

Judith: That was state and that expired at the end of September. Then, what happened is the governor put in a moratorium that didn't apply to everyone and requires tenants to go to court to assert their rights. That's very problematic because it required tenants to go in and prove that they've been financially impacted during this period and the reason why that's problematic is it leaves it state-wide up to thousands of judges to interpret what that means to be financially impacted. Unfortunately, we've seen a lot of bad decisions across the state and people starting to get evicted.

Brian: For example, the news site, the city reports that the New York City Department of Housing Preservation and Development HPD ejected, dozens of tenants from basement apartments and other technically unauthorized dwellings, is this an exception to the moratorium or have scores of people being evicted despite the moratorium?

Judith: That's the exception to the moratorium, but the bigger exceptions to the moratorium is the need for people to actually show up in court, which as you know during a pandemic is a dangerous thing in and of itself. A lot of people they're elderly, they're immune-compromised. They don't feel like they can show up in court and as a result, they're going to lose their homes whereas before we had a moratorium that meant you weren't going to lose your home.

They were told the Marshalls, "You can't evict anyone," and now unfortunately evictions are moving forward. This is really a public health crisis. There's a report that just came out that showed that in States that allowed evictions to go forward, we had 10,000 more deaths than we would have had had the moratorium continued.

Brian: Go ahead.

Judith: The problem is what we see is if you get evicted, you're likely to go into shelter. That's a situation where you are less likely to be able to socially distance, less likely are to be able to stay at home obviously and that's what's leading to the spread of this desperate disease and that has implications for all of us. From a public health perspective, letting people get evicted is just a really, really bad idea. It's a bad idea for lots of other reasons, but I think all know about, homelessness is not good for families, is not good for anyone, but in addition, in a public health crisis, it's really bad for the communities who have suffered the most during this crisis. We look at--

Judith: Let's take a phone call, Jane in Manhattan, your own WNYC with Judith Goldiner from Legal Aid. Hi, Jane.

Jane: Oh, hi. How are you? Let me just turn down the radio. Hello? Hi, I live in the East Village and I have been very much affected by the pandemic. I have my own business. I've not been able to work for most of the year. One of the things that happened is that we lost a roommate and we were not able to replace this person easily through the pandemic so we're paying what we can. My landlord has served me with papers. I just want to know at this point, what are my rights? We haven't been paying something.

Brian: Judith, can you help?

Judith: The first thing Jane, I want to recommend is call 311 and ask to be connected with an attorney from Legal Aid or legal services.

Jane: I have spoken with someone from legal aid.

Judith: Okay, that's good because I think what's really important is-- Excellent. You've done the thing I would most recommend is to try and get counsel and figure out what you can do that way, but I want to tell everyone generally and it sounds like you've done the right thing. Don't ignore those papers make sure that you call the court, that you make sure that you can answer those papers, that you're not getting defaulted because if you don't show up, and that doesn't necessarily mean showing up in-person, there are remote ways to show up, but not showing up makes it much more likely that you could lose your home.

Jane: Okay. Now, these are papers from his lawyer, they're not papers from the court.

Judith: Okay, but make sure that when you get papers from the court that you respond to those papers because it's when people don't respond to those papers that issues come up. You may also want to do what-- The center for disease control has its own moratorium, that requires tenants to do a declaration, a signed statement about how they've been impacted financially by the virus. If you do that declaration, the landlord is not supposed to sue you in court. You may want to consult with an attorney about whether that declaration makes sense for you.

Brian: I hope that's helpful, Jane, thank you very much for calling in. Do you want to take a minute Judith and explain that one a little more? Because people are probably confused about there being a New York State eviction moratorium and a federal Centers for Disease Control eviction moratorium, what's difference between them and how can people who are having trouble paying their rent know which one to access?

Judith: It is confusing for sure. The national one, the Center for Disease Control, the CDC moratorium requires that a tenant fill out a declaration that says certain things, about what they're doing. The reason I thought it might be good for Jane is it does require that you've lost income because the virus and that you are trying to pay what you can and it requires you to give other information in order to forestall your eviction until the end of the year.

Now, we think that if you do that declaration of landlord shouldn't be able to sue you at all, but for various reasons, we recommend that people talk to an attorney before they sign anything because we want to make sure they're doing the right thing. The governor's moratorium doesn't require people to do that? Just gives tenants a defense if their landlord takes them to court, but obviously, if you're in court, it's a little late for a lot of people, and a lot of people want to avoid going to court. That's the reason why you might want to use the CDC moratorium as opposed to relying on getting served with papers, which sometimes doesn't happen.

Unfortunately, as I was saying in the beginning, neither one of these moratorium is the blanket moratorium that we really need to stop people from losing their homes. That's because so many tenants, especially low-income in low-income communities don't get served with papers, get papers don't understand what their rights are, don't know that there's anything they can do.

Brian: Let's take another call.

Judith: In addition for a lot of people-- Okay.

Brian: Go ahead. Do you want to finish your thought? Go ahead.

Judith: Yes, just one more thing, which is that also, the moratorium doesn't stop rent from being owed. We do recommend that people explore what other options they may have to help them with the rent, for example, going to public assistance or a home-based program to help them with that but let's go on from there.

Brian: There is going to be a bill in Albany apparently and especially with the new Democratic Party, supermajority in the Senate that might have a better chance of passing, that's more of a rent cancellation for a period of time than just delaying when you have to pay. I want to explore that with you in a minute, but let's take this next call first, Mark in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hello, Mark.

Mark: Hey Brian. Good morning. I got a two family home and it's such a hard thing for everyone. I got renters living inside, they've not been paying; I haven't been able to pay the mortgage so I'm afraid there's a very possibility that I might lose my home. I've worked for many years to be able to purchase the home. Now, I hear people advocating for the renters, but at the same time, we also want to advocate for the homeowners because we're in-- I myself I'm not being able to pay the mortgage.

Meanwhile, I paid property tax. I pay the water bill. You guys should advocate that the city comes through some-- A check to cover everyone. Everyone is being covered, not just renters and then you leave the homeowners out to dry because if they cut us some check to cover everybody and everybody might be able to sustain and whole over until-- But then when the pandemic is over, renters are not going to be able to pay it back all those back rent that has been almost a whole year. Where are they going to get money from? They can't pay it now. How are they going to be able to catch up to pay it then? I feel like they should right off everything for everybody or construct to bring everybody equally.

Brian: Mark, I hear you and Judith talk to Mark and there are many people in this position. I'm sure you hear his story about being an owner of just a two-family home. He uses the second home there to have income to pay the mortgage. His renters can't pay the rent, so he can't pay the mortgage and he's afraid of losing his home. Does Legal Aid have a policy position on this? Do you have any personal advice for Mark?

Judith: Absolutely, we do. Mark, I hear you. We have to do something that's going to help both homeowners and renters. We can't just help renters and not homeowners. We can't help homeowners and not renters. We have to figure out a way to help both of you. The HEROES Act, which was passed by the House of Representatives almost seven months ago would really go far to help both renters pay the rent and homeowners with their mortgage relief.

We really need both and we really need the federal government who has the ability really to print money to help with both these problems. We're really looking at billions of dollars that are needed because Mark is right, at the end of the moratorium people are going to owe a lot of rent and they're not going to be able to pay it and homeowners are going to owe a lot of mortgage and they're not going to be able to pay it. In the meantime, Mark, we really recommend that you talk to your bank and try and get a mortgage forbearance.

Many banks at least have been shamed into giving homeowners in your situation a forbearance, which means that you don't have to pay the mortgage now, but you pay it at the end of the mortgage period. If you're having trouble with your bank again, I recommend calling 311 and asking to be referred to either a mortgage counselor not-for-profit mortgage counselor, or to legal aid and legal services who can help with foreclosure prevention.

Brian: Have you done that Mark, yet? Have you called 311 and asked for that in particular?

Mark: I'm not on the air.

Brian: Yes, you are on the air.

Brian: All right. We've lost Mark, but that's interesting. That's good to know that homeowners can also call 311 including if they're landlords and get the kind of services that you were just talking about that's also interesting about the kinds of forbearance that the banks can be asked to give in some respects. What about state policy at this level?

We had a couple of democratic state senators, one from Queens and one from Brooklyn on the show yesterday and they were talking about how with this new Democratic Party, supermajority in the state Senate, meaning a big enough majority that they could override a veto from Governor Cuomo, they're looking not just at the eviction moratorium that Cuomo imposed by executive order, which requires paying back the rent, but a cancellation of rent, I believe for 90 days or it might be till the end of the pandemic. However, that's determined in some versions of the bill and might also include mortgage forbearance, not just rent. What can you tell us about what's in the New York state legislature and what you would like to see?

Judith: I think what we're really looking for here is a way to help people pay the rent and help homeowners like Mark afford their mortgages. I think we really have to look at substantial help for both populations because frankly, it's not going to help landlords to evict someone and still be out the rent and it's not going to help them pay mortgages either. We have to look at a reasonable solution.

I'm really hoping that with a new Democratic supermajority, that we'll be seeing really meaningful relief for both tenants and the homeowners who are suffering so that we can make sure that we're not going to see the eviction tsunami and homelessness crisis, even more of a homelessness crisis than we have now come over us because in addition, Brian, you talked about how the two moratoriums expire at the end of this month and that's right.

In addition, though, the pandemic unemployment that a lot of people have been getting, even at a very low level, it's only about $200 a week that expires as well at the end of this month. You're really talking about a triple whammy for low-income New Yorkers. We really have to do something to help them. I think this relief is likely going to have to happen at the federal level, but assuming the federal government comes up with a meaningful package, I'm very hopeful that the state legislature will step up to the plate and do something equally meaningful to help both tenants and small homeowners.

Brian: Is it possible that New York State will have a special session of the legislature? I know our guests yesterday were hoping that Cuomo would call one, it's up to the governor. I'd say the biggest reason they want this special session right now is because of rent problems.

Judith: I would hope that would happen or I would hope that the governor would implement a real moratorium. The other thing that we're calling on the governor to do is to change the rent arrears program that was passed by the legislature. The legislature passed a rent assistance program and they've only spent a small portion of it and that's because they made the requirements to get it extremely rigorous in a way that almost no one could qualify for. We've been calling on the governor to do two things in this month.

One is change the criteria so that people who really need this rent assistance money can get it. Two, do a real eviction moratorium until the end of this pandemic crisis which would give us time to both see what is going to happen in the state legislature also what President-elect Biden is going to be able to do to help both tenants and small homeowners.

Brian: Jillian, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Julian.

Jillian: Hi, great to speak with you. I love your show. I have been a renter in Manhattan. I am from Manhattan, born and raised here, been in this apartment for just over two years. My lease was up in July. I've always paid my rent on time. I just decided because I've been unemployed since March not to sign the new lease and to start asking my landlord for rent forgiveness because I have basically almost no income with unemployment.

He responded to my letter once saying they would give me a break of about a hundred dollars off of my monthly rent, which was not sufficient. I was asking for a huge break and I continued to pay what I could and continued to write letters asking for forgiveness. Now I'm receiving after four months of paying less rent, but always paying something and something substantial, which I thought would be great as I live in a building where there are about 130 apartments and about 40 tenants have moved out during the pandemic.

Brian: Wow.

Jillian: The building is really experiencing something serious because of the pandemic.

Brian: What neighborhood is that in?

Jillian: I live near the world trade center. I thought my landlord would like to keep me because I'm still paying quite a bit of my rent, but not what they originally asked for in the original lease. For the past four months, I've been paying what I can and now I've received seven or eight letters. A couple on my door, a couple from the post office, a couple in my mailbox from their lawyer asking me to vacate the premises by the end of February. This is from their lawyer.

I guess it's not exactly an eviction notice, but it's obviously scaring me because my income is probably not going to change too much by the end of February. I would sign a lease, but at a much lower rent, I'm willing to sign a lease and I'm willing to negotiate and pay what I can. Now, yesterday I looked at an apartment in a building right nearby, a studio apartment, that's about the rent that I can pay. I wonder why wouldn't this landlord want to keep me because rents have gone down substantially in Manhattan. I thought buildings such as mine might be desperate to keep their tenants because I'm not paying nothing. I'm not completely stopping paying the guy,

Brian: They're evicting you. Judith Goldiner from Legal Aid. Can you help Jillian?

Judith: Thank you. Jillian, I have all been very unhappy through this entire pandemic, that we've asked landlords to do exactly what you're talking about doing, meet with their tenants, talk to their tenants about what they can afford, try and work with their tenants to find a meaningful compromise here and over and over I hear the same story that you're telling me, landlords being completely unwilling to come to any agreement with their tenants to accept what tenants are able to pay.

Yes, I think this is a bigger-- Look, there's no way we can force a landlord to take less. We can't do that. I'm concerned that I keep on hearing this story and I wish there was something we could do about it. I will say that I don't feel like landlords in that situation should get the relief that I think that small homeowners who are trying to work with their tenants should get, but Jillian, you may have no choice, but to move because what else are you going to do? It doesn't sound like your landlord is a reasonable person.

Jillian: It does not sound like he's reasonable. I was also wondering, am I going to be owing back rent? As I didn't sign a lease and I've been paying what I can. I'm sure they're going to come after me for what they originally were asking as the rent for this apartment. They're not giving me the break that I asked for. I didn't sign a lease.

Judith: I hear you. You didn't sign a lease and that's a good thing. I think if the landlord takes you to court and he can take you to court because just because you didn't sign the lease doesn't mean that you don't owe anything. Your landlord can try and get a judge to order you to pay something, but the question will be, what's the apartment now worth? You will have an opportunity to argue that the apartment is worth what the rent was before given what the market is and that you should have to pay less than maybe you should only have to pay what you've already paid.

Brian: Jillian. I hope that's somewhat helpful. Good luck with your situation. We're almost out of time. I read that people receiving unemployment benefits are ineligible for rent relief in New York. That seems counter-intuitive. Is it true?

Judith: Unfortunately, yes, Brian. What we saw with the $100 million rent relief program that the legislature passed, is that it required tenants to show economic loss during the very period of time that they were getting the $600 a week pandemic UI. For most folks, when they were getting that money, they couldn't show loss, but people just dropped off a cliff in August when that money ended. You had a program that was set up to fail because it considered-- It looked at the very time period where most people were in a much better financial situation relative to now because they were getting that extra money. Unfortunately, once that extra money lapsed people were really in a dire situation.

Brian: We will leave it there for now with Judith Goldiner attorney in charge for the Civil Law Reform Unit at the Legal Aid Society. Hopefully, some useful information for many of you facing rent issues. Obviously, as we've been discussing, everybody's on the edge of their seats waiting to see if New York state does something new. If whatever state you're in does something new. If the federal government does something new before all these moratoriums and aid programs of various kinds expire at the end of this month, at the end of this year. Thank you for talking policy and personal legal advice for people facing rent and mortgage problems in this segment. Judith, we really appreciate it.

Judith: A pleasure, Brian.

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