[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Most of you probably know at least the basics by now of the current uprising in Iran. A 22-year-old woman named Mahsa Amani was detained by police for improper wearing of a headscarf and then died in police custody. There has since been unrest in many places around that country.

State media says 41 people have been killed including protesters and police. The BBC quotes a human rights group saying more than 70 protesters have been killed. Just this morning, just a little while ago, as the BBC reports, Iran's president warned that he will not accept chaos, he used the word chaos, as authorities continue to crack down on protests, which also means that, after many days already, the protests are continuing and the issue of women's rights is not simply dying down.

With us now is someone with personal experience with Iran's so-called morality police. She is Pardis Mahdavi, an Iranian-American who is provost of the University of Montana, and the author of the book Passionate Uprisings: Iran's Sexual Revolution. She also wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post this week, maybe some of you have seen it, called When Iran's 'morality police' came for me. We'll hear that story. Provost Mahdavi, thanks very much for joining us at this intense moment and potential turning point in history, I dare say. Welcome to WNYC.

Pardis Mahdavi: Thank you so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Can you tell us a little about yourself first, for some context for our listeners who don't usually say Iran and Montana in the same breath?

Pardis Mahdavi: [chuckles] That's absolutely right. I am an Iranian-American. My parents fled Iran during the revolution. I was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I grew up in Southern California. We moved there in the 1980s after my father faced some incidents of xenophobia during the Iran hostage crisis in Minnesota. I grew up mostly in Southern California where there are far more Iranians. I grew up just outside of what we call Tehrangeles or Los Angeles. I then pursued a course of study. I pursued diplomacy in world affairs initially because I wanted to be the bridge between my two home countries, Iran and America.

After finishing my undergraduate work, I then went on to Columbia University to pursue a master's in international affairs, and then actually began writing stories about Iranian youth. I traveled back to Iran in the late '90s and was fascinated to note that not only was there a burgeoning feminist movement, but I started engaging with young people who were, at the time, my age, we're all children of the revolution, all born 1978, '79, and 1980. These young people were engaging in what they called a sexual revolution or enqelab-e-jensi in Persian.

I became fascinated by this youth movement where young people were speaking back to a regime that had come to power under a fabric of morality, by using their own bodies to gradually chip away at that morality framework. I became absolutely fascinated by this movement and inspired by the work they were doing and returned to Columbia, decided to pursue actually my PhD in medical anthropology because I wanted to study the intersections of sexuality and politics. Back in the early 2000s, that was the only way to do it.

I pursued my PhD. I did dissertation fieldwork in Iran. I basically spent more of my time in Iran between 1999 and 2007 than I did in the United States. I was doing on-the-ground research on Iran's sexual revolution and then wrote my first book, which was Passionate Uprisings: Iran's Sexual Revolution. That book, of course, got me into a bit of hot water in 2007. When I was presenting the preliminary results of my fieldwork at Tehran University, and 13 minutes into my lecture, the auditorium doors banged open, the morality police came stomping in and pulled me off stage.

Brian Lehrer: That's where your article begins. I want to, of course, get into the details of that story and how it relates to what's going on right now today in Iran. Let me back you up just a couple of steps because you just told such a fascinating story of your own journey, which took you from being born in Minnesota to being provost in Montana via Los Angeles, Tehrangeles, as you call it, and New York.

Were you old enough in Minnesota before your parents felt that they were forced to flee to LA? To experience any kind of irony around the fact that all of America was outraged by the hostage-taking of Americans by the new Iranian regime at that time in 1979, the same regime that your parents had fled because they would have been oppressed by them, but then other Americans were turning on you and associating you with the regime that your family fled?

Pardis Mahdavi: Absolutely, Brian. I was old enough. I was in elementary school. I came home from school one day and there was a sign that was posted in front of my house, and it said, "Burn this house. Terrorists live here." My first instinct was, "Have terrorists come to my house? Who are they talking about?" My father was a physician. My mom worked at the hospital. My understanding in elementary, school girls understanding was my parents were trying to help people. They were fleeing a regime that they described as being terrorists. I was incredibly saddened and terrified when I saw that sign. It was that night that my father decided that we needed to move to California.

My father said something to me in that move, which perhaps helps to connect the dots as to how I ended up in Montana. My father said something to me as we moved from Minneapolis to California. He said, "You know, Pardis, people can take everything from you. They can take your home, they can take your belongings, they can even take your country.

The one thing no one can ever take from you is your education." That stayed with me and is what prompted me to not only pursue education with a relentless passion but also to, about a decade into my career as a professor, to become a leader in academia, to become a dean, and then a provost because I wanted to help others get that which can never be taken away from them, which is an education.

Brian Lehrer: That's what I thought.

Pardis Mahdavi: That move was transformative.

Brian Lehrer: Now, listeners, we're going to invite you in on this pretty early on here. We took some calls from Iranian-Americans on what's going on in Iran right now last week. We invite more of you now. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. What's the issue in Iran, as you see it, driving people into the streets? How do you want this to end or think this will end? One of the points of Pardis's op-ed as we'll get to is that she thinks this may end differently, maybe better than the wave of protests in 2018 that did fade away.

Listeners, what can Iranian-Americans do? There's another question for you. 212-433-WNYC, or anything else you want to say or questions for our guest, Pardis Mahdavi, a provost of the University of Montana and author of the book Passionate Uprisings: Iran’s Sexual Revolution and the op-ed in The Washington Post called When Iran's 'morality police' came for me. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet a question or comment for Pardis Mahdavi. 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer.

The first line of your article is the morality police came for me exactly 13 minutes into my lecture on gender and sexual politics in post-revolutionary Iran. You started to tell the story a minute ago. Tell us more. Where and when exactly were you giving that lecture?

Pardis Mahdavi: It was the summer of 2007. I was in Tehran. I was just putting the finishing touches after eight years of on-the-ground ethnographic fieldwork in cities, including Tehran, Shiraz, Isfahan, and Mashhad where my father's family lives. I had done eight years of on-the-ground fieldwork following what young people described as Iran's sexual revolution, and actually had been writing quite a lot about the morality police and really thinking about how this sexual revolution could lead to a civil rights-type movement. We saw that in just a few years later in 2009 in the Green Movement, and of course, that's what we're seeing on the streets of Iran today.

To back up to that very pivotal moment in my own life, I was just beginning to share the results of my research. My interlocutors, and my friends, my family, were quite adamant and I agreed that I should present the results of the research in Iran. That was the right thing to do. I should note here, Brian, that I began my research under President Hatami, a much more reformist progressive ruler.

When I first started doing my fieldwork, I had the opportunity to work with the Ministry of Education, with the Ministry of Health, and I had quite a lot of freedom of movement. By 2007, of course, as you know, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had been elected a few years prior and things had started to turn. As I look back on the decision to present my research in Teheran, in '07, of course, the Monday morning quarterbacking, I do ask myself, what was I thinking, why did I think I could present the results? I also wanted to be fair, and true to those who had opened up their hearts and their stories to me at great risk to themselves.

Brian Lehrer: It sounds like you knew you were putting yourself in some danger by even giving that lecture.

Pardis Mahdavi: Absolutely, I did and yet, Brian, if you would ask me would I do it again, would I still publish that book, would I still say what I said and write what I wrote? Absolutely, I would. I think it was the right thing to do.

Brian Lehrer: The auditorium doors wang open, you're right.

Pardis Mahdavi: I can't remember if I saw or smelled or heard them first but I can still remember the sound of boots clanking and whole different sensory. The auditorium smelled like rosin and rosewater and suddenly, it erupted in all different types of scents. Pandemonium ensued and I should have been shredding my lecture notes. That's what I should have been doing but I was frozen, just gripping the podium until a few of them walked up the four stairs up to the stage and pulled me off, and then I blacked out.

Brian Lehrer: You're either knocked unconscious or out of fear and anxiety or whatever, you blacked out. How hurt were you?

Pardis Mahdavi: Not physically. This is what I often underscore people say, well, were you hurt physically? No, I think in my case, it was much more emotional. I always say, and I will say it again, I was one of the lucky ones. My friend and colleague Haleh Esfandiari who had been arrested that same summer and she was held in Evin Prison in solitary for months and months and months. She faced far more brutality at the hands of the interrogators and torturers in that Evin. I do consider myself one of the lucky ones. Brian, I think it's important that I say that.

Brian Lehrer: In your op-ed, you call the men who detained you thugs, were the official agents of the government?

Pardis Mahdavi: I think this is what's interesting. The government has several different arms of the police. When the Islamist regime came to power, they replaced what they had been critiquing as the brutal SAVAK police under the Shah. They replaced their police with a number of different arms. One was the revolutionary guard and I think that's who most people outside of Iran are familiar with is the Revolutionary Guard, but they also created another arm and that was the morality police. The morality police and here's the technical definition, they're charged with committing right and forbidding wrongs.

Their charge is to ensure that the morality of the population of Iran is upheld by, for example, policing what women wear, are they wearing proper Islamic outerwear. I would actually say, Brian, that it's not just women, they also policemen. Young men who were seen with eye-catching hairstyles, mohawks or fauxhawks, these young men were also policed. People who had eye-catching jewelry and accessories. They also walked the streets looking for unmarried couples who might be engaging in immoral behavior holding hands, making out in the park. Then, eventually, they disguise as plainclothes men and would often raid parties and raves and various "immoral" gatherings.

Brian Lehrer: The morality police, morality is a big word, not detaining a peaceful person giving an academic lecture. Not detaining that person could be seen as a moral standard to uphold. The realms of morality that the morality police mostly police seem to all have to do with sex and gender and physical expression.

Pardis Mahdavi: Absolutely. Also, I would say alcohol use, playing music too loud. I saw young people in the early 2000s, if a group of young people were speeding down the streets of Tehran blaring their music, I saw them being pulled over. One of the quotes from my article where I quote a Khomeini quote that was presented on billboards in Tehran, Ayatollah Khomeini when he came to power, he said, there is no fun to be had in the Islamic Republic. In a sense, the morality police are there to patrol that notion of fun which, of course, you and I might interpret in a number of different ways. Remember, Brian, that this is a regime that came to power in the late '70s and early '80s.

They came to power on a platform of fighting what they saw as an over-infatuation with the West, or what they call West toxication. This regime came to power juxtaposing themselves, and they came to power under a fabric of morality promising to return Iran to an old concept of Iranianess. The morality police were the enforcers of that.

Brian Lehrer: Well, they accused you of trying to foment a revolution. They seem to have done a pretty good job of fomenting revolution themselves with the death of Mahsa Amini. Are you surprised by the intensity or duration of the reaction? You note in your op-ed that Iranians have taken to the streets now in more than 40 cities?

Pardis Mahdavi: Yes, and actually, that's even growing. Last night I heard it was over 50 cities. I think that it is different this time. I do think it's different. What we saw the Green Movement in 2009. People rallying also around the very tragic death of Neda Agha-Soltan, and we've seen protests but each time we've seen protests erupting in the street, I would say since 2009, the support has increased.

I think what's important to note this time is what we're seeing today, it's no longer just a women's rights issue. It's no longer just a "feminist" issue. People are in the streets, fighting for human rights, fighting for their freedom, and their dignity. They're in the streets speaking out against a regime that they feel does not represent them.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Mondana in Westchester, you're on WNYC with the provost of the University of Montana, Pardis Mahdavi. Mondana, am I saying your name, right?

Mondana: Yes, correct. Hi, Brian. Hi, Pardis, thanks for having me. I want to start with answering one of your questions and then we get to the other question. You asked what fellow Americans can do. I want to say to my fellow Americans, I need you to email all your senators and representatives, ask them to cut diplomatic ties with this terrorist regime of Islamic Republic. US is a leader so this time they should act as a leader and be the first one to cut diplomatic ties. This shows that the United States is supporting this freedom movement, this revolution that is happening in Iran, please do that. One thing I can guarantee my fellow Americans.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Mondana.

Mondana: Just one more sentence. One more thing that I can promise my fellow Americans is that free Iran, Democratic Republic of Iran will open doors to atomic energy agency personnel to come in and inspect and remove whatever nuclear stuff is there. The Iranian people do not want atomic war. We don't want any of that. That would be one of the first things that is going to happen. My fellow Americans, we don't need to keep this government to negotiate with them. We can get rid of them just to stand on the side of the people and you will not have to worry about an atomic bomb in Middle East.

Brian Lehrer: You would say while this struggle for human rights is going on there, no nuclear agreement with Iran. That's what you're saying, right?

Mondana: Exactly. No negotiations. They are not legitimate government. The last election only 3% of the people voted for this president who came to the United Nation a few weeks ago. 3% of the people do not represent the entire country of 86 million people. This government is not a legitimate government. Biden administration should not have been negotiating with a legitimate government, to start with. Now that people want to change the government, it's another saying that this is legitimate. This government is not representing us.

Brian Lehrer: Got it.

Speaker: Don't negotiate with them.

Brian Lehrer: Mondama, thank you so much. Please call us again. Well, there's a dilemma. Pardis, if you ask progressives in this country generally are you for women's rights and against headscarf laws and all of that, obviously, yes. If you ask are you for reentering a nuclear weapons agreement with Iran that Trump pulled us out of? They probably would also say yes for the most part. For that listener, at least, Iranian and American the two things clash. What about for you?

Pardis Mahdavi: I'm actually glad that Mondana brought that up and thank you for calling us. It is interesting to think about the fact that there have been these ongoing conversations. Now of course we've seen examples in the past historically during the Cold War where government's still engaging in some negotiations with Russia. Actually, I think that Mondana has a really good point that there may be a time for those negotiations.

This is not that time. Now the time is for the United States and the world to stand with the people of Iran. It's not to say that we don't have to worry about the nuclear issue but I think that now is the time for us to focus on the people and how we can support the people of Iran at this absolutely pivotal moment.

Brian Lehrer: When you gave your speech in 2007 that got you arrested by the morality police, they accused you, as you write in your op-ed, of fermenting a revolution. Sounds from Mondana's call like she wants the [unintelligible 00:22:53] revolution. There should be a revolution. This government should be overthrown and replaced with a whole new kind of governance structure in Iran. Is that the goal? Is that your goal? Is that the protester's goals?

Pardis Mahdavi: I think it's very clearly the protester's goals and I think they've been articulating that since the late '90s, early two 2000s. That is what I want to underscore here, Brian, is that there's been a ground swell of movement and the sexual revolution that I was studying between 1999 and 2007 that social movement sewed the seeds of reform.

Then we saw the Green Movement allowed those to take root. Then today we're seeing the fruits of that movement. It's been more than two decades that the protests of people pouring into the streets of Iran. They have been speaking out against the regime and calling for their removal.

Now their voices are just getting louder and more amplified because they have more and more support. Whereas before it was maybe seen as this is a movement initiated by young people or people who are in the urban centers or people of a certain class or people of a certain religious affiliation. Today, it's widespread and you see Iranians from all parts of the country frustrated with the regime that they believe has not had their best interests at heart, that has not focused on issues such as infrastructure and employment, has resulted in these crippling sanctions really harming the people of Iran. I would say the folks in the street are very passionate and risking their lives demanding freedom.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Pardis Mahdavi author of among other things, The Washington Post op-ed When Iran's 'morality police' came for me and more of your calls right after this.

[music]

Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with the Provost of the University of Montana. If you're just joining us, you may be surprised to hear that title since we're talking about Iran and Iranian Americans. It's Pardis Mahdavi an Iranian American who is Provost of the University of Montana and author of the book, Passionate Uprisings, Iran's Sexual Revolution.

She also wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post called When Iran's 'morality police' came for me.

Pardis, I want to read a tweet that we got from a listener. It's a question for you. It says may I ask the professor if she sees any parallels between the theocracy of Iran and the surge of Christian nationalism here in the USA? Are there any similarities or differences that may be used in order to restore and preserve the separation of church and state or I guess in that case Mostyn State?

Pardis Mahdavi: I think that's a great question and one that we've been asking, I would say, even since George W Bush's presidency here where we saw in the United States a strange bedfellows alliance of evangelical Christians with different types of political groups. When that administration enacted the global gag rule which essentially prohibited US funding to support any organizations doing work around family planning basically sex education.

There were striking parallels between that and what the Iranian regime was passing which actually forbade radio hosts from saying the word condom on the radio. Strong parallels there. That's something that we have been seeing for the last 20 years, absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another phone call. Tara in Pennington, New Jersey. You're on WNYC. Hi, Tara.

Tara: Good morning, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I just wanted to say that I'm calling even though I'm here but all my family are in Iran. We are feeling that and we are with the people of Iran. My brothers every night goes to sleep and they know and they feel the fear. I'm sorry. I've being so emotional.

Brian Lehrer: I know it's emotional.

Tara: I just wanted to say--

Brian Lehrer: It's okay.

Tara: I was just to say we want to get rid of regime Middle East and whole world will be a safer place without tourist people. Vivant western countries stop negotiating with these people. These are not representative of our people. They have to call the ambassadors from a country. They have to close the emphasis in my country. They have to cut all the time the tourist group. We want to get rid of them and they will stay to end.

Brian Lehrer: Tara, how will that regime be toppled.

Tara: When people are saying get rid, they voice at the end of it, no matter how long does it take? Even Gandhi when one person and started the movement, if they stay together, they would get rid of this government. It's not going to be easy. They kill so many people, they will kill more. If they stay together if they have support from Western countries, if human rights is really matters for Western countries that this movement will get to the end. There's no other choice.

Brian Lehrer: Pardis, do you want to talk to Tara at all or ask her any questions?

Pardis Mahdavi: Absolutely. Hi, Tara. Thank you so much for calling and I can absolutely hear the pain in your voice and I want you to know it resonates with me. I think so many Iranian Americans like myself, like my parents, they have been hoping and hoping for 44 years now that this regime will somehow be removed so we can go home so we can go see our families.

Tara, I don't know about you but in my case especially in the last three years when COVID hit Iran so hard and I've lost family members and I can't go home for their funeral. We can't go home. I know that part of the pain in your voice is the pain of exile. I want to say that's something that I feel too.

Brian Lehrer: Do you want to say any less again, Tara?

Tara: Thank you. Please continue and be our voice. You know that there is no internet connection. Please be our voice. Let other people hear our voice and let them know that they are not alone in this movement to freedom, to justice and democracy.

Pardis Mahdavi: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your voice on this show. This is why we take callers, folks. This is why we don't just talk to experts and journalists and academics, even though our guest is an academic. She also has personal experience as described in her article When Iran's 'morality police' came for me. We get to hear people's lived experiences like Tara's from Pennington. It's much better that way. It's much more real. To what she was talking about, the last line of your op-ed is no country, no matter how long it tries, can repress its citizens forever. What gives you hope that this will change and how?

Pardis Mahdavi: Brian, I think that what we're seeing now, one of the things that's given me so much hope is the fact that the international community is speaking about it, is talking about it. You and I are here this morning talking about it. We have callers calling in, thanking you for amplifying their voices. When I started working on the youth movements and the protests, young women like Mahsa Amini were being pulled off the streets and threatened and hurt by the morality police, and it wouldn't even make the papers outside of Iran.

Rarely would it make the papers inside of Iran because the press is so tightly controlled. Now we're in this different moment where Mahsa Amini's name is known throughout the world and more people around the globe are looking at Iran, are talking about Iran, and are saying, "We stand with you." The attention of the international community is what gives me hope, Brian. The fact that you and I are having this conversation today, that gives me hope.

Brian Lehrer: Why do you think her case broke out when so many others, presumably like it did not?

Pardis Mahdavi: I think some of it is, is timing. At a certain point, people are fed, they've had enough. At a certain point, people will say, enough is enough. We see that here in the United States with the movement for Black lives. At a certain point, people will say enough is enough. A death captured on video and shared around the world is a call to action just as we've seen here in this country.

It's a catalyzing moment for civil rights. I also think Mahsa's case was incredibly chilling. Not unlike many of the cases we've seen here in the United States. She was not out there actively trying to protest and foment a velvet revolution as I was accused of doing as many others have been, she was walking the streets and her head scarf was not properly positioned.

I mean, when you talk about somebody who-- The brutality of what she faced, given that she was walking the street with a head scarf that was "immorally placed", how can you argue that that is absolute brutality? How can you argue with that?

Brian Lehrer: [unintelligible 00:33:38] in Manhattan? You're on WNYC. Hello, [unintelligible 00:33:42].

Caller: Okay, guys. I just wanted to say, I wanted to respond to some of the callers that were calling in. I like totally agree with what everyone's saying about the government. They are truly the worst. I'm really hopeful that maybe this is the straw that breaks the camels back in Iran. I just get concerned when people call in saying we shouldn't be negotiating with these people.

They're essentially being like, they're terrorists. We shouldn't negotiate with them. They're awful because we haven't been negotiating with them. In fact, the whole problem is that we haven't been negotiating with them. I think that had we come to an agreement with the Iranian regime during Trump's time, we actually would've had a nuclear deal. We would've maybe had a progressive president in Iran instead of [unintelligible 00:34:42].

Potentially, this wouldn't be happening. It would be a more progressive place and America would be helping by talking to them and opening those lines of communication. I think, by shutting them out, we've seen what happens. The sanctions are hurting the Iranian people. It's not the Iranian government that's getting hurt and the sanctions are hurting their healthcare. I mean, people can't get medication. It's really sad. I don't like to hear Iranian callers saying, "Let's not negotiate. Let's cut these people off." I don't think that's helpful to the people. Actually,

Brian Lehrer: I hear you. Pardis, well, there's the tension. What are you thinking as you listen to [unintelligible 00:35:29]?

Pardis Mahdavi: [unintelligible 00:35:31], I think you make a really strong point, which is I don't think we want to call Iranians terror. We don't want to feed Islamophobia, certainly. I think that one of the things I was arguing before was had we engaged in conversations with more moderate presidents like Khatami or Rouhani who was president before Raisi.

Had we taken that opportunity to start to engage in conversations, to start to strengthen a more moderate side, that may have opened up space for the international community to invite Iran in, to start to do a lot of the-- I mean, because wonderful human rights work is being done in Iran. You've got a very vibrant civil society. You've got very strong presence of activism as we're seeing that has spilled out into the streets in this way today. I do think that may have missed some opportunities to negotiate with moderates such as Khatami or Rouhani before we ended up with hardliners like Ahmadinejad and Raisi. I think that that is a very fair point.

Brian Lehrer: One more listener comment then we're out of time. This one on Twitter, listener rights protest in Iran changed the corrupt rule of the Shah. These protests could change the rule of these religious [unintelligible 00:37:05]. You agree? Can the government be brought down? Can democracy be established in Iran through mostly peaceful protests in the streets if they're big enough?

Pardis Mahdavi: I think that this is why some of us are cautiously optimistic at this moment. I think that while some may have initially thought that what we saw in the protests on the streets of Iran in these last several days resembled the protests of 2018, I actually would argue that it does remind me more of 1978 and 1979 the fervor, the numbers, the widespread nature of these protests does have a pretty strong echo of the revolution that ousted the Shah. I think that is caused for us looking at things differently and it is caused for hope.

Brian Lehrer: Perhaps at a turning point in history, we thank Pardis Mahdavi, Provost of the University of Montana, an author of the book Passionate Uprisings: Iran’s Sexual Revolution. Maybe you saw her recent op-ed in The Washington Post called When Iran's 'morality police' came for me. Thank you so much for coming on.

Pardis Mahdavi: Thanks for having.

 

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.