Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Former Congressman Will Hurd is here, a potential 2024 presidential candidate, it's been reported and a unique one. Before leaving Congress at the end of 2020, he was the only Black Republican in the House of Representatives. Now, there are none. Will Hurd was also a CIA agent stationed in Afghanistan.

Before that, he was a computer science major at Texas A&M. As a congressman, his district was constantly in the headlines during the Trump administration, and it still is really, because it runs along the Texas-Mexico border. In a new book called American Reboot, Will Hurd outlines a vision for forming his own party and our politics in general. One chapter, for example, is explicitly written for Republicans.

When I say "explicitly," it's called, "Don't be an a-hole," he uses the whole word, "racist, misogynist, or homophobe." He calls himself a moderate and wants more people from both parties to be ones to solve problems rather than point fingers at domestic enemies. The full title of the book is American Reboot: An Idealist’s Guide to Getting Big Things Done. Will Hurd joins us now. Congressman, thanks for making this one of your stops with your new book. Welcome to WNYC.

Congressman Will Hurd: Hey, Brian. I really appreciate you having me on. Looking forward to chatting.

Brian: Before we get to your solutions for America, I thought maybe we'd give listeners outside of your district or DC a chance to know your story a little better. Where did you grow up and what was it like for you there?

Congressman Hurd: Well, I grew up in San Antonio, Texas, born and raised. I'm the baby of three. I have interracial parents. My dad is Black and my mom is white. They met in Los Angeles in the late '60s, got married, and moved to South Texas in 1971. It wasn't a time to be in vogue to be an interracial couple in South Texas at that time. I studied computer science at Texas A&M University, which is in a place called College Station.

In my freshman year, I was walking across campus and I saw a sign that take two journalism classes in Mexico City for $425. I had $450 in my bank account, so I go to Mexico. Fell in love with another culture. It was cool seeing things I only read about in books. That began really my journey overseas. I added international studies as a minor, met an awesome CIA guy. That caused me to go into the CIA when I was 22. I was the dude recruiting spies and stealing secrets in exotic places.

In addition to collecting intelligence, I had to brief members of Congress. I was pretty shocked by the caliber of our elected officials, so I decided to run for office. My momma said you're either part of the problem or part of the solution. I moved back to my hometown, ran for office, and lost a runoff by 700 votes. Glad I don't have to tell that story anymore. I started a cybersecurity company. Opportunity came to run for Congress again. I took it and I served three terms, six years representing one of the largest congressional districts in the country.

Brian: Yes, largest just by area, which means it's not very dense. You are the only Black Republican in Congress. I guess that's the first thing a lot of people will say about you. I said it in the intro and I said it again. So few Black Americans support the Republican Party for the last 60 years ever since the Civil Rights Act divided the parties that way. I think it would be a decent demarcation in time. How did you become a Republican in the first place?

Congressman Hurd: Well, I was the only Republican in my last term. There's actually two Black Republicans in the House right now. Likely in 2022, there's potentially four to five that are growing. It was that--

Brian: I'm sorry. That's a correction. I said in the intro that at the end of your term, there were none. I stand corrected. Thank you.

Congressman Hurd: No worries. Well, look, my father grew up in East Texas. He grew up in a part of East Texas, where really Jim Crow got started. This place where his family lived was probably one of the more important areas outside of Richmond during the Civil War for the Confederacy. After the Civil War, there were a lot of Republicans. A lot of reconstruction was focused and geared in this community, where my dad's grandfather and father grew up.

My dad always says he was a Republican since Lincoln freed us. Now, we can have debates on the party. Looks very different now than it did under Abraham Lincoln, but still, some of the principles are held to by many. Then when I was in college, I was lucky to get to really know President George H.W. Bush. He was influential in encouraging me to join the CIA. He was a former CIA director, former ambassador to China. He was steeped in foreign policy.

Then I had the fortune to know a guy named Bob Gates. Dr. Gates was the interim head of the Bush School. These were some of the people that influenced me early on. When I decided to run, these were the folks in the philosophy that was ingrained in me. I believe in a simple formula that has been at the core of the Republican Party for a long time. Freedom leads to opportunity, opportunity leads to growth, and growth leads to progress. When the party focuses on that and those values, we can be successful in communities that haven't traditionally voted for Republicans. That's one of the reasons I wrote in the book and you're right.

This is a prescription for the Republican Party to start looking more like America. Everybody should care about that, not just Republicans because I think we need to have two strong parties that are actually able to be involved in a competition of ideas because that's the only way we're going to address many of the super complex challenges that our country has faced. This is not about us achieving just our best selves. We are in a competition with the Chinese government. The rest of this century is going to be decided who becomes the global leader for the rest of this century. It's going to be decided in this new cold war between us and the Chinese government.

Brian: Just to put yourself in the current political context, I've seen it reported that you're considering running for the Republican presidential nomination in 2024. Are you considering that?

Congressman Hurd: Look, I think if I have an opportunity to serve my country again, I'll evaluate it. I think thinking about any election other than the current election is a bit of a fool's errand. The current election is 22 and I'm not going to be on a ballot. Again, I've been lucky to serve my country. Being in the CIA was the best job on the planet. It was awesome representing the folks of the 23rd Congressional District. If there's an opportunity for a future political activity, then I'll think about it, but that's off in the future.

Brian: All right, so I'll take that as, yes, you are considering it. Just to put your presidential votes then in historical context, let's say you're 44 years old. Was your first vote in a presidential election, 1996?

Congressman Hurd: That's correct.

Brian: Did you vote for Clinton or Bob Dole?

Congressman Hurd: Bob Dole.

Brian: Let's run it down since then. Did you vote for George W. Bush both times?

Congressman Hurd: I did.

Brian: Did you vote for Obama either time?

Congressman Hurd: I voted for Mitt Romney. I think it was both times, right.

Brian: John McCain and then Mitt Romney.

Congressman Hurd: McCain and Romney, yes. McCain and Romney and then I voted for Evan McMullin and then I wrote--

Brian: That's in 2016 to not vote for either Trump or Clinton, right?

Congressman Hurd: That's correct.

Brian: In 2020?

Congressman Hurd: I wrote in Condoleezza Rice.

Brian: You're not a Trump guy obviously. When you tell your party not to be racist as in that chapter title I referenced, you know I could easily get a board full of callers who see the modern GOP as, fundamentally, the party of white grievance and white supremacy, that the party is about that at its core. How much do you see it that way?

Congressman Hurd: I don't think that the party is at that, the core, but there are those that espouse those beliefs that you're talking about. I think oftentimes when we think of parties, we only think about the elected officials that get the most TV time and are loudest on social media. Those are problems. Don't get me wrong with that. It's not the majority of the party. It's not the majority of the voters.

We're perceived that way because of the actions of a percentage of those that are in elected office or are connected to the party apparatus in some form or fashion. The reality is if you look at what's going to happen in 2022, you're going to see probably one of the more diverse GOP houses in history. You're going to see potentially near if not historic gains in the Latino populations.

I think when it comes to the Black community, there are some opportunities with some good candidates around the country. This is what I espouse. Most folks already believe. Most prognosticators, regardless of what your political affiliation is, suggest that the Republicans will take back the House and likely take back the Senate. Much of that is going to be fueled by the Latino vote.

When you look in South and West Texas, that's the case. Part of that is because of the problems on the border. I represent 820 miles of the border. One of the things that I learned when you live on the border, border security is actually public safety. This is the worst crisis that we've seen ever and it's only getting worse. When you talk about energy in the energy sector, 40% of people that live along the border are connected to the energy sector in some form or fashion.

That's about impacting their jobs. We're already seeing these trends. I want to make sure these trends stick. Part of that is making sure those that espouse this hateful rhetoric are marginalized within our party. Brian, the things I'm talking about are hard to do, right? Some of those are the loudest voices, but we need to do that. I think that is one way that we can ensure the Republican Party looks like the rest of America or looks like all of America.

Brian: Listeners, your questions welcome for former Texas Congressman and potential presidential hopeful, Will Hurd, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet your question @BrianLehrer. Was I right that you embrace the word "moderate," that word?

Congressman Hurd: Sure, I hate labels generally, right? Always my entire life. People have always tried to make me fit into a certain bucket and I've never liked that. Sometimes most people use that term "moderate" as a pejorative. It almost means squishy, but moderates are actually the ones that do most of the hard work, right? We're the ones that win in competitive seats. I'm not just saying moderate Republicans. I would say the same for Democrats and, actually, are reflective of the majority of the country.

I accept that term for sure. I think I'm ideologically consistent. I behave the same way whether my party is in power or not. I think the lack of trust that the American public has for many of our institutions, not just federal government, state government, local government, media, academia, and scientific establishment, a lot of that lack of trust is because of the failure of some of our leaders to be ideologically consistent. I like to say it's a lack. Your audio and your video need to match.

The things that you say need to reflect the things that you do. That's what I pride myself in. Some people use the adjective "moderate" to describe it. I'm proud because I had to take a conservative message to places that had never heard it before. I'm a Black Republican that represented a 71% Latino district. Nobody thought I had a chance. When I won, everybody always heralded my demise. I continued to win because I did the hard work of showing up to communities and talking to people that may not believe that they believe my way but to try to articulate a different message.

Brian: Here's a fan of yours, I think, or at least he was a fan until you left Congress. Glenn in Ossining, you're on WNYC. Do you know where Ossining in New York is, Will Hurd? Ever been there?

Congressman Hurd: I don't, Brian. I don't. I'm sorry.

Brian: It's just a little north of New York City. Glenn, go ahead. Hi.

Glenn: Hi. I just wanted to express my posting. When you gave your speech leaving Congress, I was so sad and greatly angered that you were leaving at a time when the scales were tipping so, so against bipartisanship. You were a voice, I thought, for that in so many ways. Then you quit and I've never understood why congressman like you and there's a few others out in the heat of the fight quit when such a moderate voice such as yours was so desperately needed. With you gone, it just puts more pressure on the few that are left.

Brian: Glenn, thank you very much. Congressman Hurd, what would you say to your fan in Ossining, New York?

Congressman Hurd: Hey, Glenn, thanks for the question and thanks for the geography lesson as well. One, I appreciate your statement because you believed in what I was doing and what other folks like me were doing. It also presupposes that the only battlefield is Congress. That's not the only battlefield for these ideas and for the soul of our country. I also said, I first ran for Congress in 2009. I said that I would not be in office for more than six, seven, or eight years. I believe that these positions were not designed to be in forever.

It was funny. People got mad at me because I said I wasn't for term limits, but I also said you don't have to stay in these positions forever. For me, not running for re-election, I thought that the six years was the right move. I got 21 pieces of legislation signed into law. I also thought that one of the ways to potentially reform the Republican Party was being able to have the freedom to travel across the country, talk about these ideas.

I would not have been able to solidify some of these ideas in the book that I did. Then, also, I think some of the most critical things that the country needs right now is we have to be ready for the public and the private sector to be working together on advanced technologies. I go into this deeply into the book, a whole section on technology, a whole section on foreign policy, where we have to be ready for this battle.

Being able to be in that role and working on technology, working with technology companies that have a national security application, but also helping candidates across the country go into college campuses where most Republicans don't show up and talking about some of these ideals. Sorry, you're upset, but I'm still in the fight. In part, it's just in a different way. The only way to fight for your country doesn't mean that you have to do it on the floor of the House of Representatives.

Brian: Here's a question from a listener on Twitter who says, "Can you ask the guest what their party stands for? For example, they are pro-life," the Republican Party meaning, "are pro-life and pro-gun. I just don't understand this right or rights. What could the GOP does for anyone?" There's a few. There's obviously criticism in the party there, but there's a question in there too, what you think the party stands for and they cite pro-life and pro-gun.

Congressman Hurd: Sure. Look, on the pro-life issue, I actually believe you should be supportive of life through the entire continuum, the unborn. Also, when it comes to people on death row, I've been against the death penalty. I also think you should be for young kids that were in cages back under the previous administration. That's what the party should be for and that's that ideological consistency of what I talked about earlier.

I think the Republican Party, we can be successful when we're based on values. I talked about that formula earlier. It's about empowering people, not necessarily empowering the government. I think concentration of power in the hands of the few, whether it's an individual, which is the far-right wing of the Republican Party wants, or in the government, which is the far-left wing of the Democratic Party wants. I think that is ultimately a bad thing. When we deviate from those values, that's what happens when you lose.

If Republicans don't take the message in 2022 when we take back the House and likely take back the Senate, this wasn't the public saying, "Hey, we love you." It's the public saying, "We don't like what the other people are trying to do." If we don't do anything in order to address issues like people being able to help people put food on the table, a roof over their head, and take care of their loved ones, then we're going to get booted out of office two years later. These swings--

Brian: Let me--

Congressman Hurd: Sorry, Brian. Go ahead.

Brian: No, I was just going to follow up on that listener's question on Twitter there and go down quickly with you if you can do it, a checklist of some of the big issues that the country is facing right now that are divisive to let listeners know where you stand as a self-described moderate. Your state of Texas is trying to outlaw almost all abortions. I think you've just called yourself pro-life. Does that mean you're for what Texas is trying to do?

Congressman Hurd: I am pro-life and I think the time at which how many weeks into a birth you should limit. I think there is where Texas falls I am supportive of. I also think both sides of the argument should be looking and making sure, how do we prevent a young woman or any woman from having to get in this situation? I think working on the front end of this issue is where both sides of individuals can be working together.

Brian: For the Texas law. How about the ways the voting laws are changing in Texas and elsewhere? Democrats say it's based on non-existent voter fraud designed to make it harder mostly for Black people to vote because they're so reliably voting for Democrats.

Congressman Hurd: Sure. Brian, I'll talk specifically on the Texas law and that's the one I know better. Some of the details in some of these other places, I don't know all the nuance. I'm for making it easier to vote. We should have same-day registration. We should be able to register online. I even think we should be able to get to a point where we can vote online if the country of Estonia can do it.

Estonia is right next to Russia. They have to worry about a physical threat of the Russian government. They also have to worry about a cybersecurity threat from the Russian government and if the Estonians can do it. Yes, they have a 1.4 million person population, which is basically the size of my hometown of San Antonio. If they can figure it out, we should be able to figure it out. Look, Texas also has two weeks of early voting over the weekends. There's many states that don't have that much.

If a county wants to do 24-hour voting, a county should be allowed to do 24-hour voting. We all should be able to verify the individual who is voting. That's what I've described. 70% of Democratic primary voters agree, 70% of Republican primary voters agree. Yes, it was made harder for some folks, but here is the bigger problem. Only three million people voted in our most recent primary that happened on March 1st.

That is Republicans and Democrats out of 30 million. That means 27 million people didn't vote. The broader issue of why these people weren't voting is because they didn't see either side providing something that they care to go out and vote for. That level of voter apathy is one of the things that I think is scary around the country. Now, I have some opinions on why that happens. Look, I think it starts with we need to have leaders that are inspiring rather than fearmongering. We have too many leaders.

Again, this is people along the entire political spectrum that pander more to the extreme edges of their party rather than the middle because our primary systems are designed to do that. In the book, I go in a deep dive of how seats that are not competitive in November, how that has decreased over the last 40 years, which has led to some of the uber-partisanship that we see, which leads to having more bomb-throwers in elected office rather than people that actually want to solve problems.

Brian: Let me follow up on that. Listeners, if you're just joining us, we have a few minutes left with former Texas Congressman Will Hurd, who was the only Black Republican in the House of Representatives, at least during his last term, and has written a book now called American Reboot: An Idealist's Guide to Getting Big Things Done.

On what you just said, many Democrats whose votes you might eventually need if you're going to run for president say it's a false equivalency to say both parties need to come back from their fringes, that it's the Republicans who are threatening to destroy electoral democracy as we know it and are peddling lies and hate, not just disagreeing on issues, so much more than anyone in the Democratic Party's left or certainly when you compare the predominance of dangerous, violent radicalism in the country and general radicalism at the center of the party's power. False equivalency in your view to just say left and right need to pull back from their fringes?

Congressman Hurd: It is not a false equivalency. The things that you've described, I don't disagree with, right? The problems are different. I've been very clear about my opinions on the 2020 election. It was not stolen. It was lost. It was lost because Donald Trump was incapable of growing the GOP into all areas of America. He failed to make the GOP look like America. What happened on January 6th was indeed an insurrection. That insurrection was fueled by the lies of many elected officials, including President Trump.

I also think that when we talk about Trumpism within the Republican Party, I think that's too narrow. I think we talk about a broader authoritarianism that is growing within the party. While it is not the majority of the party, it's an influential part of the party. When we take the House back in 2022, that wing of the party may be the one that influences how the House is ultimately led. All of those things--

Brian: Yet you say it's not a false equivalency to say left and right need to pull back similarly?

Congressman Hurd: Well, it's about solving problems for the American people. If the majority of the country was concerned, then why are you going to see Republicans take the House back and the Senate back? I think we can say there's problems that have to be addressed. The problems in the Republican Party are dire and should be addressed. Also, the fact that the Democratic Party is showing an inability in order to govern, which is allowing some of these, the fact that they're going to lose at the ballot is an indication that there needs to be some soul-searching on the Democratic Party as well.

If you want to say one's more important or one's a bigger problem than the other, you can make that choice. I also think it's incorrect to say that there's only problems on the Republican side. Everybody always wants to make every issue an "or issue" where most issues are "and issues." We got to solve all of these problems at the exact same time. The problems are different and it's driven by the fact-- Look, if I had a magic wand, there'd be no district that would be more than plus six in either direction, meaning you would have no district, no more than 56% Republican or 56% Democrat. That's a jump ball in my opinion, but I don't have a magic wand.

Brian: Let me ask you one more because we're going to run out of time in a minute, I know. On an issue of the day, if you were in the Senate, would you have voted to confirm Ketanji Brown Jackson as a Supreme Court justice?

Congressman Hurd: Look, I think it's an important moment. I think it's a historical moment in time. I think we can appreciate the historical moment in time, but also disagree with judicial philosophy. I think that, historically, I have leaned more in my behavior with Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski and Mitt Romney.

Brian: Who you did vote to confirm?

Congressman Hurd: Yes, so that's why I would probably say I would probably be leaning that way. When I was in the House, I always made sure I did my study and did my review. I think it was a seminal moment and important moment in our history and likely would have had leaned with those three Republicans.

Brian: The only Black Republican in the Senate, Tim Scott, did not vote to confirm Judge Jackson. Did that surprise you?

Congressman Hurd: No. Look, he makes his own decisions, right? There's a lot of debate about this. There's been a few times that Republicans have tried to nominate conservative-- I think it was 12 years ago. There was a conservative African American woman to the DC Court of Appeals that we tried to forward. This was one of the first times that then-Senator Schumer used the filibuster against a judicial nominee. Am I surprised? People make their own decisions. He probably just disagreed with the judicial philosophy. That was his decision on how to evaluate folks and that's how we evaluated everybody.

Brian: Former Congressman Will Hurd of Texas. His new book is called American Reboot: An Idealist's Guide to Getting Big Things Done. Who knows? He may be a presidential hopeful in 2024. Congressman, thank you so much. If you get into the race, we really look forward to you coming back on the show as a candidate. Come back anyway. Thank you for joining us

Congressman Hurd: Awesome. Thanks, Brian, for having me on.

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