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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. First of all, happy St. Patrick's Day. Top of the morning to you, even though it's almost the bottom of the morning here at ten o'clock. We will go live in about an hour to the kickoff of the first in-person St. Patrick's Day Parade on Fifth Avenue since 2019. Our Gwynne Hogan is there. We'll talk to the Irish-American comedian and serious person, Maeve Higgins, that's coming up. We'll also take your calls later from current or recent apartment hunters. I see some ears perking up out there at this. The new landlords' gold rush is on, apparently, as the New York area recovers from the COVID economy.

We will invite your stories of just how much landlords are asking now, or if you're a landlord, how much you are asking and how these negotiations are going. You know how they talked about bidding wars for homes in the suburbs in the early part of COVID? Well, now, apparently, landlords are asking, according to one report I saw, well, how much are you willing to offer for this apartment to prospective renters? That's coming up. Yes, here it is Thursday already. If you're still a little jet-lagged from losing an hour of sleep on Saturday night, so, apparently, is Senator Marco Rubio.

Senator Marco Rubio: One has to ask themselves after a while, "Why do we keep doing it? Why are we doing this?"

Brian Lehrer: The Florida Republican has a bill to put us on permanent daylight saving time. The bill has now passed with a unanimous consent voice vote.

Senator Marco Rubio: I think the majority of the American people's preference is just to stop the back and forth changing.

Brian Lehrer: Now, the Senate doesn't do very much unanimously these days, or maybe ever. Permanent daylight saving time is apparently the new heart of common ground in America. Unless it's not. The House hasn't passed the bill yet. People I know can agree on, if we're going to have one permanent time, whether they want the extra light in the morning or at night. Listeners, do you have an opinion on this before the House of Representatives makes changing our clocks obsolete? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. We'll talk about that and more now with New York Times congressional reporter Luke Broadwater. Thanks for coming on, Luke. Welcome back to WNYC.

Luke Broadwater: Hey. Good morning. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: What exactly would the Marco Rubio bill do?

Luke Broadwater: Well, it would do away with all of the clock-changing that we Americans have grown so accustomed to in favor of one time. The Rubio bill is for it to be the daylight saving time. That is the hour. This is the time that's preferred by people who like light in the evening. Basically, the time we're on right now would stay the same time for the whole year and would not change starting in the fall of 2023. Rubio and some of the other senators spoke with the airlines and spoke with some big organizations. They basically indicated that their schedules are set so far in advance that they couldn't make a change earlier than that. They've given institutions plenty of time to adjust to this new schedule if, in fact, it would pass the House also.

Brian Lehrer: In what sense was this vote unanimous?

Luke Broadwater: Well, it caught me by surprise, and I think it caught a lot of hail reporters by surprise because we've all been very much bogged down and reporting on Ukraine, and the January 6th Committee, and Build Back Better or attempts to revive it, and the weighty issues of our time. Then all of a sudden, this bill, which has been a pet project of Marco Rubio since 2018, was brought to the floor and quickly passed within minutes. There was no debate. It was brought up suddenly. It was asked for-- to see if anyone objected to it. When no one did, it passed by unanimous consent. Then pretty much every lawmaker rushed out to the podium to give their speech of why this was such a great idea.

I do think a lot of them were annoyed at losing the hour of sleep over the weekend and they were talking about that, and maybe they were just in a foul mood and decided to do it.

Brian Lehrer: With great power comes great privilege, or I know it's supposed to be the other way around. You reported that while no Senator dissented, at least one, Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona, celebrated out loud. What did Krysten Sinema say?

Luke Broadwater: She was presiding over the chamber at the time. She did a double fist pump and said, "Yes," as she was sitting in the President's chair. It's funny because Arizona is one of the two states that has an exemption from daylight saving time. It doesn't even affect her state, but it's apparently quite popular with much of the voters. There's a good amount of public opinion polling that shows that Americans don't like changing the clocks back and forth. They just want to pick a time.

What is interesting, though, is we did away with the clock-changing in the 1970s. At the time, it was a very popular decision. After about a year of not changing the clocks and having daylight time shifted, people grew to actually miss it, and it was reinstated. Maybe there is some wisdom in Ben Franklin's idea that you should change the times to give people some more sunlight in the morning during some of the year.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. I didn't know that about Arizona. They don't change their clocks in Arizona?

Luke Broadwater: Yes. They have an exception or an exemption from the early 1900s. It was because of the extreme heat in the southwest of the country, where-- Anyway, they were able to get an exemption, and so they do not follow, and neither does Hawaii.

Brian Lehrer: Arizona senator, Kyrsten Sinema, is very excited about this. Nonetheless, she's not so excited about paid parental leave, like in President Biden's Build Back Better bill that she's holding up. That's another show. You also had liberal Democrat, Patty Murray, more on the liberal end of the Democratic Party with a positive quote in your article. What did Patty Murray from Washington State say?

Luke Broadwater: Patty Murray said she constantly hears from her constituents about the effects on children's sleep cycles. I actually noticed this myself. My kindergartener stayed up to like 11:30 after we changed the clocks, and I was like, "Go to bed." If you have young kids who are into a sleep routine, all the clock changes can be very frustrating for parents. She blamed the change of the clocks for disrupting her constituents' sleep cycles, those of them with young kids.

Brian Lehrer: I have three tweets already from listeners, who say, I'll read one of them that sums it up well, "Just compromise and move it a half hour." Anybody talking about that in DC?

Luke Broadwater: I have not actually heard that. That's a good idea. Maybe I will bring that up in some interviews. I don't know how that would work, honestly. The debate has really been about whether to use standard time or daylight saving time. The majority of states that have put forward their own bills or resolutions have gone for daylight saving time. It seems to be that most people prefer a little extra light in the evening than in the morning. If you're a morning person, you're a early morning runner, or you have a job requires you to be out early in the morning, you're going to want standard time. I can understand both ways.

Brian Lehrer: Or kids going to school in the dark in December, in January or so. I personally like my extra daylight later in the day. One of my close colleagues here was saying to me this week, "Please, please, put it in the morning." We're a little tiny nothing sample of two, but I think from what you're saying, this is a conversation that Americans would be having with each other if they thought this was serious and might actually pass as one or another permanently. How late-- Do you have the numbers? How late would the sun come up in December and January, if we were on permanent daylight saving time?

Luke Broadwater: Oh, I don't know. That's a good question. I don't have that off the top of my head.

Brian Lehrer: It could be a little after eight o'clock, especially in some places. Did you realize that it's different north to south within the US, but also east to west within the time zones? For example, the sun comes up later in Ohio than it does in New York, which are both in the Eastern time zone, but later in Ohio because the sun rises in the east. I don't know if there are any geographical divisions along those lines in Congress.

Luke Broadwater: Yes. I can see you having a breakdown where you have the East Coast in the West Coast or whatever, depending on-- or even the north and the south depending on their constituents' preferences. There's also the lobbying aspect of this. Scientists do not like the-- Scientists like standard time better. They say it's more consistent with natural sleep cycles and the rising of the sun, but most of the business groups want daylight saving time because that gives them a little more time in the evening when people are more likely to shop. There is a lobbying effort connected to this as well, where it does seem the more moneyed interests are on the favor of daylight saving time.

Brian Lehrer: With Luke Broadwater, congressional correspondent for The New York Times. Wendy in Bloomfield, you're on WNYC. Hi, Wendy.

Wendy: Hi. Good morning. Thanks for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for making the call. It's 10:10 in the morning. A week ago at this time, it was 9:10. See that. I confuse myself, but that is right.

Wendy: It's confusing.

Brian Lehrer: It was 9:10. We sprung forward. Anyway, hi.

Wendy: Hi. Well, I was calling because my concern with switching the time to the daylight savings is when the kids are going to school in the morning, it's going to be dark when they're trying to walk and I think it'd be more dangerous. My son, a few years ago, almost got hit by a car in a crosswalk and it was daylight. I'm concerned that walking to school in the morning in the dark is going to make it more dangerous.

Brian Lehrer: Wendy, thank you very much. We have another one on the same concern. I'm going hear it. Nora on Staten Island, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nora.

Nora: Hi. Good morning. Yes, the same thing. I'm concerned about children that are on the bus stop or walking because if you stay daylight savings time, that means it's dark until after eight o'clock. I really wish people would think of other people besides themselves, especially think of children who don't have a vote, and do what's best for their safety. I also think that if people find it so difficult to change their clocks twice a year, which I'm having a hard time getting my brain around that, but anyway, then to stay on standard time. That would be my vote.

Brian Lehrer: Nora, thank you very much. Luke, listener tweets, "In Buffalo in December, the sun would rise at 8:50." Now, I can't confirm this, but this is what somebody wrote in with their calculation. In Buffalo, because that's far north, the further you go toward the poles, the more extreme the differences are from season to season. In Alaska, the sun hardly ever goes down in the summer, that kind of thing. In Buffalo, which is north in the US context, listener writes, "In Buffalo in December, the sun would rise at 8:50 with daylight savings becoming permanent." Then Betsy in Brooklyn puts that concern in the context of the guy who sponsored the bill, Marco Rubio. Hi, Betsy. You're on WNYC.

Betsy: Hi. Marco Rubio is in Florida, so it doesn't change as much. He's nearer to the equator. I am not a morning person, but even so, I hate going to work in the dark. Besides all the concerns of the schoolchildren, that extra hour of daylight in the middle of the winter doesn't really help because if you're working a 9:00 to 6:00 job, which a lot of us do, it's still dark when you get out of work. At least let's have some light in the morning when we're coming in.

Brian Lehrer: Betsy, thank you. Yes, Florida being nearer the equator has more even sunlight and darkness throughout the day. Some more tweets coming in, Luke. One person writes that moving it to the half-hour compromise that somebody suggested would be terrible for business because meetings are set to certain times internationally. If we were out in our Own Private Idaho with 30-minute time zones, but then somebody else wrote in that they do that already in Newfoundland. I don't know if that's true, but somebody wrote that.

Now somebody else writes about the concern for the children. Maybe if we change the clocks to be daylight saving time at all times, schools can just start a little later, then the kids would get more sleep and they wouldn't have to walk in the dark, which is such an interesting tangential issue. Luke, I don't know if this has ever come up in your experience covering Congress, but it comes up at the local level and communities around the country from time to time. Why did the kids have to go to school in certain grades so damn early?

Luke Broadwater: Well, I actually used to cover a local school board. That was my first job out of college. There was a constant debate of why high school started so early and elementary school started so late when the little kids wake up earlier than the big kids. Anyway, we have a lot of things in this country that don't necessarily make a ton of sense. I do think it's interesting that so many of your callers are pushing back against this idea because that is what we've seen when it was switched before. Russia actually moved to get off daylight saving time or the clock-changing, I believe six or seven years ago, and then they reverted back to changing the clocks again.

It does seem like when other countries move away from it, they miss it and then want to move back. We'll see. This country has done different things many times. The law has changed repeatedly since 1918 when clock-changing was first introduced. It was repealed and then it was reinstated in 1966. Then, I mentioned 1974, there was the change and then the change back. Then in 2005, daylight saving time was lengthened to cover more weeks of the year, something like a month or two months more.

We have fiddled with this before. The current system hasn't always been the way of life here, but we'll see. I do think the House wants to slow this down a little bit, study it a bit more before making a decision, because what the Senate did was quite quick and it took a lot of people by surprise.

Brian Lehrer: Number of people being snarky on Twitter. By the way, this is a Twitter jackpot. We've done how many shows in the last two weeks on should the US impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine, matter of mass life and death. Yes, we get some tweets. This, oh my God, I can't keep up with them. I start to read a tweet on the air and it goes off my screen because 10 other tweets have come in.

Luke Broadwater: You'll be glad to know that I was shocked at the number of people on The New York Times website that read this story. It was a bonanza of readers. It's a topic of very high interest.

Brian Lehrer: Some people pushing back on my reference to Florida being relatively close to the equator. One saying, "Florida is closer to Canada than it is to the equator." I take your point, but that was just relative to Buffalo. In some other parts of the United States, if you're in Miami, you will feel those days be a little more even between light and dark compared to the northern US.

Somebody else writing in a serious vain after our conversation about the disadvantages for kids going to school in the morning, maybe it's the opposite for older people. Listener tweets, "My 81-year-old mother has to rush home before 4:00 or 5:00 in winter because it's not safe for her to drive when it's so dark. Safer for older folks with light at night. Safer for kids in the morning, I guess." There's an interesting dichotomy too.

Luke Broadwater: That's a fair point. One of the experts we talked to who studies motor vehicle safety said that the extra hour of light in the evening would reduce car crashes likely. Sheldon Whitehouse, the senator from Rhode Island, raised a bit of outrage on the floor when he said that people were driving home in the dark at night and it was dark in Rhode Island at 4:15, and he would rather it be 5:15. There is some argument for the evening rush hour having a bit more light and preventing accidents.

Brian Lehrer: Connie in Massapequa, you're on WNYC. Hi, Connie.

Connie: Hey. Good to talk to you, Brian. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What have you got?

Connie: Years ago in the early '90s, my husband was transferred to Tokyo. My children were one and two. In the summer, let's say June, it would be broad daylight at four o'clock in the morning there and dark before 7:00 at night. Personally, I found it really difficult to keep kids sleeping past the brightness that early. Also, I think for older children, it's nice, and for adults too, to have some light at the end of the day in the summertime. That gets cut off with this year-round change, I think, for the worst.

Brian Lehrer: Connie, thank you very much. Luke, what is the timeline of this? This is not normally a topic we would necessarily lead this show with, but because it passed the Senate unanimously and because you reported on it in The Times as having come with no warning and no debate, this may actually become policy in the United States. We should do at least one prominently spotlighted segment on it before it does. Is the House of Representatives likely to take a vote soon? I see that Ed Markey from Massachusetts sponsored the House version. Is that right?

Luke Broadwater: Ed Markey, when he was in the House, was the author of a bill that lengthened daylight saving time in 2005. He's now in the Senate and is an advocate for doing it permanently. I spoke with Speaker Pelosi's office on that.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I see. He co-sponsored-- Oh, no, I misread. Of course, I was thinking about Ed Markey as a member of the House, which of course is outdated. He co-sponsored with Marco Rubio. Is that it?

Luke Broadwater: Yes. He's part of the Rubio, Patty Murray, Sheldon Whitehouse push to make this change. Now, I spoke with Speaker Pelosi's office--

Brian Lehrer: By the way, another tweet that just came in, "I can't believe I finally agree with Marco Rubio about something."

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Luke Broadwater: Pelosi's office says they're studying it. Their point personal on this is Frank Pallone from New Jersey. He is in favor of switching to one time year round and not doing the clock-changing, but I think it's still a matter of study about which time to embrace. I think the House wants to slow this down a little bit, study it a bit more. They do have a few more months before the elections. Honestly, it isn't-- I think Ukraine is a much more pressing issue right now in the Congress. I can see this coming up for a vote in the House before the end of the year. I do think they think what the Senate did was a little quick and probably deserves a bit more study before the House takes it up.

Brian Lehrer: One more call on this. We mentioned Arizona being an exception to moving the clocks twice a year. Patt is calling from Phoenix. Patt, you're on WNYC. Hello from New York.

Patt: Hello, Brian. Now you're on an hour earlier here than you were a couple of weeks ago. Seven o'clock instead of eight o'clock.

Brian Lehrer: Because you didn't change your clocks.

Patt: We didn't change our clocks. If you want to watch live events or things on the cable networks, the regular shows, you have to figure out, oh, well, we've got to watch them an hour earlier. Then in November it goes back. That's the only advantage. In Luke's story, he said Kyrsten Sinema, who's presiding over the Senate, Luke, she got really excited when this passed.

Luke Broadwater: Yes, she was. It was like when a kid celebrates because they got out of school early. It was like, "Yes," that kind of thing. Anyway, go ahead.

Patt: Could you figure that out because-- is it just that she wants everybody to be like Arizona and not change their clocks?

Luke Broadwater: I haven't had a chance to follow up with her yet. I just think she thought it was a popular idea, and she was glad the Senate did something that was popular with much of the country. You're right, it's somewhat perplexing considering it doesn't affect your state at all.

Brian Lehrer: Patt, do you like it?

Patt: It is very confusing. I lived in New York and I missed daylight savings time because it helps bring-- When I first came here, people would say, "Oh, the last thing we need in the summer is an extra hour of daylight." Well, we're not getting an extra hour of daylight. We're just moving the clock. I don't understand it.

Brian Lehrer: In Phoenix, it's live from New York, it's Saturday night at 8:30. Never mind.

Patt: Now, yes. It used to be 9:30.

Brian Lehrer: You're right. Patt, thank you very much. Of course, it's always three hours behind in the Western time zone. Phoenix is in its own little time zone, but the rest of the year would be Mountain time. Anyway, Luke, what were you going to say?

Luke Broadwater: Oh, no. If this were to pass, I think Arizona would have a choice about whether they want to stay with their current time or switch to daylight saving time like the rest of the country. It might be a little weird for them to be on standard time. I don't know. Since they're exempted, they would choose their own fate.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to continue with Luke Broadwater, congressional correspondent from The New York Times, in a minute. We're going to change the topic and we're going to ask him about congressional reaction and whether it's going to result perhaps in any policy change to President Zelensky's speech before Congress yesterday. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Luke Broadwater, congressional correspondent for The New York Times. Luke, yesterday, as we all know, President Zelensky from Ukraine gave his virtual address to Congress. I want to ask you about his invocation of acts of war against the United States, including Pearl Harbor and 9/11 in that speech. How did that go over in Congress?

Luke Broadwater: Well, I think the reaction to President Zelensky's speech was- the speech went over quite powerfully with members of Congress. Some of them were crying. Some of them were emotional, especially after this- he played about a two minute video which was horrific to watch, with the deaths of children and how certain cities in Ukraine looked before, pristine and beautiful, and then destroyed by this air bombing campaign. This has really unified Congress. You don't hear a lot of internal bickering over this. They seem to be very committed to helping Ukraine as much as possible within a few limits.

Obviously, I'm sure you've covered the almost $14 billion that was authorized to help Ukraine. President Biden just announced about $1 billion more in support this week, including lots of military equipment, ammunitions. Obviously, they're stopping short of a no-fly zone, and there is an internal debate over the MiGs and whether to support their use. President Zelensky, they gave him two stand negotiations. Almost everybody on the Hill that I talk with is looking up to him as a leader and someone who should be respected.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a Tucker Carlson wing, if I can call it that, of the Republican Party in Congress on Ukraine that's more pro-Putin or restrained on support for Ukraine in any way conceptually?

Luke Broadwater: Yes. There may be a few like that, particularly in the House, but they're really relegated to the sidelines on this. I think maybe Marjorie Taylor Greene put up a video recently or Madison Cawthorn made some comments at a fundraiser or an event along those lines. There are those pro-Putin or, I don't know what to even call them, positions, or have not caught-- They are not popular on the Hill. Those are extreme positions that people are not embracing.

Almost every Republican I talk to on the Hill is calling for much more to be done. Ben Sasse called for a whole litany of additional aid to go to Ukraine just yesterday. If anything, they're pushing the Biden administration to do more, not less. That's the dominant position on the Hill right now.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, they wouldn't call themselves pro-Putin, those few. They would put it in different terms just to be fair. What about on the left side of Congress? There's always skepticism about US expressions of power on the left, given Vietnam and Iraq and other questionable wars on our part.

Luke Broadwater: Yes, there are. I think Ilhan Omar talked to one of my colleagues and said she was largely in support with the majority view of Congress, but there could be a point where we go too far. The Biden administration has been very clear about not wanting a no-fly zone. They're worried about using the MiGs because the MiGs would take off from NATO airspaces. It's potential to draw Russia into a war with NATO. They're very reluctant to do that.

They want to help Ukraine as much as possible, give them weapons and aid and support so they can fight their own war, but they do not want to take steps that would draw NATO into the war as well. Yes, there is great skepticism about using American troops and having America fight this war.

Brian Lehrer: Does race, or ethnicity or religion come up for anybody in your reporting? The fact that the US is rallying so strongly around the victims in Ukraine, but when there are atrocities in Yemen, or in Syria, or Central America even, if we want to talk about the immigration flow to the United States, there isn't as much unanimous support.

Luke Broadwater: Yes. Certainly, with regards to refugees, I've heard several lawmakers make those comments and those points about how so many lawmakers seem so eager to support Ukrainian refugees but did not have the same opinion of Syrian refugees. The contrast there is quite clear and really disturbing to a lot of people, especially those in the Democratic Party believe we should welcome everyone who is in need of refuge, not just those who have a certain skin color or religion.

Brian Lehrer: Then there's also the question of equivalent sanctions on countries committing those atrocities [crosstalk] Putin.

Luke Broadwater: Yes. If you look at Putin, Putin bombed, destroyed Chechnya and destroyed Aleppo. Other countries, their cities have been bombed to rubble before without the same huge outcry from Congress.

Brian Lehrer: We're almost out of time. I want to play a clip of President Biden relevant to something you said a minute ago. I'll just play the clip and then we'll talk about it. Here's the President after Zelensky's speech.

President Biden: The American people are answering President Zelensky's call for more help, more weapons for Ukraine.

Brian Lehrer: Is it getting lost how much the US is doing for Ukraine for all the debate around the no-fly zone and the MiGs, which we're not doing what they want on, but maybe it's getting not enough press how much the US is doing for Ukraine right now?

Luke Broadwater: Yes, it's a fair point. Just $800 million more announced yesterday. I think it's $2 billion from the Biden administration, and nearly $14 billion from Congress. There's a lot of support, and the support is coming pretty quickly and with bipartisan approval. There's a few steps that people don't want to take because they're worried about World War III, but there is a ton of support coming from the United States to Ukraine right now.

Brian Lehrer: Luke Broadwater covers Congress for The New York Times. Luke, thanks a lot.

Luke Broadwater: Thank you.

 

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