[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Well, after giving you that detailed update on the weather and taking some calls with reports from various locations around the area, we're going to take a break from that now. Obviously, you know the basics of just don't go out if you don't have to. The roads are a total mess. The airports are a total mess. The subways and commuter rails are a total mess; a lot of services suspended. We do plan to take Governor Hochul and Mayor Adams's news conference, if it happens at any time during the show. Meantime, let's talk about other things and distract ourselves.

As our congressional bodies inch closer and closer to a government shutdown- no, we're not going to talk about the government shutdown- the one thing our lawmakers can't stop talking about and the Senate can unanimously vote on is fashion. Few weeks ago, did you hear this, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer moved to relax the dress code on the Senate floor. When asked about it, Schumer confirmed this was to accommodate Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman who suffered from a stroke while on the campaign trail, and later took time away from the office to deal with clinical depression. Known for wearing hoodies and shorts, when asked about why he dresses the way he does, here's 45 seconds of what Fetterman had to say.

Senator John Fetterman: Comfort, basically. It's hard to find suits this size too. I believe that it's not the person that is made by how they dress as well, too. You're still willing to speak to me, and I'm in a hoodie and you're in a suit. If you would have showed up dressed like Spider-Man, I still would have been delighted to speak to you because I know you're a professional and I'm delighted to do that.

Particularly our staffers are not well paid here in D.C. and they work very, very hard. That is a major financial burden, including dry cleaning as well too. I have a dynamic staff. I don't care what they're dressed in too. It's like as long as they're comfortable and continue to serve our nation.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Fetterman. I think that was on Wednesday from Forbes. Of course, given our polarization and maybe the different cultures of left and right in this country, Fetterman's fashion choices caused the general outcry from Republican lawmakers in the name of decorum and respect for the nation and its people. Senator Joe Manchin, while not a Republican, also echoed those sentiments. Here's why he feels a dress code is still needed.

Senator Joe Manchin: When George Washington agreed for these plans at this unbelievable, amazing building, what was he thinking about? I think it's 1780s thinking, "Okay. I want to have something grand that people can be proud of." To do something like this way beyond our means back then, and for us not to respect with the decorum and civility that was expected of us then and now. For 234 years we assumed that there was a rule. It was an unwritten rule, if you will.

If, for 234 years we have had a certain decorum and civility that we thought there was a rule that we should do, but we did it because out of the respect of the people that we represent back home, and something higher and greater and mightier than all of us, can't we continue that?

Brian Lehrer: Invoking George Washington, no less. What did he dress like? All of this commotion culminated in the Senate's unanimous decision to reinstate the formal dress code, much to the chagrin of Fetterman.

Now, a few weeks ago, we had a segment here on the show covering New York Fashion Week and its significance for the city. While many of you listening understand why fashion is a relevant and worthy topic of discussion, we did get some responses like this text, "Fashion, yawn. Really reflects where we are, really? Doesn't reflect the lives of anyone I know," from that text.

Well, clearly, this debate has struck a nerve throughout society from the Senate floor to our listeners. Joining us now is a person who would argue that what we wear does matter not just in terms of how we present ourselves to the world, but also for how we think about ourselves on a day-to-day basis.

Allison Bornstein is a personal stylist who serves all people of all walks of life from the biggest celebrities to new moms. Her recent book, which despite the long intro here is what we will be focusing on for most of this conversation, is called Wear it Well: Reclaim Your Closet & Rediscover the Joy of Getting Dressed. It makes the case for harnessing the power of clothing as a means for self-care and self-discovery. Allison, thanks for being here. Welcome back to WNYC.

Allison Bornstein: Thank you for having me again. I'm so happy to be here.

Brian Lehrer: First, your thoughts on the dress code drama happening on the Senate floor. I know you're not a political commentator.

Allison Bornstein: Well, I think it's really interesting. I think, as I was looking, it's really interesting because I think that Fetterman really has- it seems like he has an understanding of the power that clothes have to communicate and connect because I think that he uses his casualness and his more undone style to convey the authenticity and the directness that he wants to convey. I don't know. I think it is a very powerful tool.

Brian Lehrer: This conversation between Democrats and Republicans goes way back after the buttoned-up Richard Nixon era. Nixon, even once, when he was under investigation for something before Watergate, talking about his wife wearing a "good Republican cloth coat." After Nixon was impeached or had to resign, and the country was all suspicious of Washington and felt like Washington was disconnected from them, Jimmy Carter took the presidency, and he started wearing cardigans and things like that.

Then when Ronald Reagan was elected, a more conservative Republican, he reinstated the formal dress code because he thought that reflected, from his value system, the dignity of the office. Do you think about those? There's a history here, and I don't know if it's culture on the left versus culture on the right, but these few instances would indicate that it might be.

Allison Bornstein: Yes, it's interesting and really just, if anything, it does show that fashion is so important in terms of the political vocabulary. What we wear and how we present ourselves is such a big part of who we are. That's what the book is about, and yes, that totally makes sense.

Brian Lehrer: Part of your reason for writing the book, I know, is that you want people to feel joyful while looking at their closets and picking out their outfits for the day. What do you say to those who don't really care about what they wear, thinking that clothes are just clothes?

Allison Bornstein: Yes. Well, I agree that, unfortunately, fashion is sometimes seen as vapid or shallow, but I think it's because people don't understand that in order to have good style or style that really represents who you are, it really takes vulnerability, and you have to take risks, and you have to be comfortable enough with yourself to understand what you want to project to the world. I actually think that having good style is a very deep pursuit. You do have to look inward. You have to ask yourself, "Who am I? What do I like? What do I not like? Why do I not like it?" That's what it takes. I understand that some people think that it's not worth it and whatever, it's just clothes that we put on our body, but of course, what we wear is how we communicate.

Brian Lehrer: I'm thinking of myself when I was in college, and I would say, "Fashion, urgh, that's shallow, or it's- I don't know, other things. I only want to wear jeans and sweats and flannel shirts," but that was a choice too.

Allison Bornstein: Exactly. I think sometimes we think fashion is fashion, like these crazy looks, but just think of it as clothes. It's what we put on our body every day. It's a decision that we have to make every morning what we want to wear. I think that it is a decision that we can just, like you said, put on jeans and a top and that's fine, but it's also something that can bring us a lot of joy and creativity if we harness it in the right way.

Yes, of course, I think there's like a-- I don't know. There's a little bit of judgment around people trying really hard like, "Oh, I don't want to look like I tried. I don't want to look like I tried to look good," because I think that that sort of implies that you don't care about other things, that all you're doing is thinking about clothes. I think that we should all try, and we should enjoy the process of trying, and it should be fun and joyful to get dressed, and to like fashion and to like clothes instead of something that's kind of shameful and embarrassing.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Lisa in Prospect Heights who wants to weigh in on the Fetterman question. Lisa, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Lisa: Hi. Yes, I'm calling from Brooklyn. I'm a far lefty and I find it completely appalling that anyone would be so disrespectful to not dress properly. I think buying a suit-- you can get a very nice suit at a thrift store, and jeans are just as expensive, if not more expensive. I just feel like if you got elected to Congress or the Senate, then you can be respectful and dress properly.

Brian Lehrer: Why does that connote respect rather than what Fetterman said in that clip which is that I know you are a person who thinks deeply about issues because you're here in the Senate, it doesn't matter to me what you wear?

Lisa: Well, because, like your guest said, it does make a difference. Would you show up to a funeral just wearing something really casual? We live in a world where what one dresses actually does say something. I just think it absolutely shows no respect. I am loathed to ever agree with the current Republicans, but I don't see why it should be a party-based decision. Whenever we go to certain places, we dress a certain way, and that's just the reality.

Brian Lehrer: Lisa, thank you very much for your call. Allison, you consider fashion to be part of self-care, inviting readers to engage in a number of meditations and rituals while in the process of cleaning out their closets in this book. How does getting dressed translate to self-care in the sense that you mean it?

Allison Bornstein: I think that getting dressed it's something, like I said, we have to do every morning, and we can make it a process that feels fun and expressive. It's actually even interesting talking about the Fetterman debate. It's interesting that he was saying that he was wearing those clothes because he was depressed. I feel like that really just shows how strong the link between mental health and fashion really is. When you're not feeling your best and you just throw something on, that doesn't help. I do actually understand where that color's coming from in terms of that.

Anyway, yes, so I think that getting dressed can be such a creative joyful process. It can really show people who you are and what you care about. Yes, to me that is such an act of self-care and self-love.

Brian Lehrer: Gregory in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Gregory.

Gregory: Hi, Brian. I just wanted to say-- and thank you very much. You know you are a joy to even listen to every day. I truly believe that Fetterman has the right idea, only because in my experience I grew up where guys wore suits all the time. My father, my grandfather, everybody wore suits. I sell bow ties. I've watched the American man and I consider he's just following his constituents. Guys are dressed like 15-year-olds walking around with jerseys from their favorite sports on an everyday basis. Men in America do not dress like overseas. I sell more bow ties overseas than I do here simply because men in London, men are dressing like men. I think he's dressing like his constituents so he's not doing anything wrong. He's just being a guy.

Brian Lehrer: Gregory, thank you very much. Allison, anything on that international comparison that Gregory was starting to get to?

Allison Bornstein: Yes, that is interesting that people overseas are dressing a little bit more formal. Like I said in the beginning, I think he's using his wardrobe or what he wears as a way to connect with his party and his constituents. I think that that is also really interesting, like being I'm one of you, I'm casual, I'm direct, I'm authentic. I think that that is an interesting take.

Brian Lehrer: You list some common, what you call inner voices in your book that clients encounter when getting dressed. Like, is it cool? Am I too old or young for this? Why does this look different on me than the model? All of these thoughts boil down, you say, to is this flattering? I don't know. The question maybe is what do you have against dressing in the most flattering manner possible?

Allison Bornstein: I think I understand why people are obsessed with what is the most flattering because I feel like that's what we've been taught. I find that dressing in a way that's flattering or that what society tells you is the most flattering is really limiting because essentially it's just saying like what can I wear to make me look the most thin? I don't know, that's not always like-- Again, it's limiting.

If somebody says that- I don't know- like you shouldn't wear a black turtleneck because black isn't your color, that would be such a bummer. I feel like it really, again, just limits you and limits your choices. It's sometimes good to have the information of what looks good and what doesn't, or what makes you feel good and what doesn't, but again I don't really love rules that keep you in a box because, again, I feel like fashion should be creative and fun and we should take some risks. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Sam in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sam.

Sam: Hi. I actually have two comments. One is how the Republicans criticized Obama for his light suit. I think they were just jealous because they didn't look as good as he did. Number two, how can they criticize Fetterman for being disrespectful of the Capitol and the history and everything when they have not condemned Donald Trump for calling all of these insurrectionists to actually destroy the Capitol? It's just hypocrisy. It's just ridiculous. That's all I have to say.

Brian Lehrer: Sam, thank you very much. I think Jay in Brooklyn is going to come at this same Fetterman senate question from a different kind of experience on Capitol Hill, right Jay?

Jay: Hey, Brian. It's Jay here. Yes, I worked in the Clinton administration back in the early '90s, and I worked at the State Department. I remember that when they relaxed the casual Fridays, it became a free for all. You'd have people showing up, as the caller said earlier, in like their Detroit Red Wings jersey. You got to have some level of decorum.

I think that Fetterman can dress that way when he is not at the Capitol. I'm fine with that, but this notion that he can't find a suit that finds him it's just kind of silly, and people not wanting to follow rules. I think that having everybody dress- would have a dress code is important. Now that can be interpreted in a lot of ways, but showing up in shorts and [unintelligible 00:17:03], I think that just diminishes the Capitol. To be clear, I'm a Democrat and I like John Fetterman, but I think this is silly. Let's just stick with the rules.

Brian Lehrer: Why does clothing equal decorum for you?

Jay: I just think that it helps set the standards and the rules and that if people are dressed in a certain way, one would hope that people are going to act in a respectful manner. I just think that this may seem like not a big deal to people but I've worked in Washington and I've walked those halls. My son goes to GW right now and he was elected to the university senate and this summer we went out and bought a suit because I wanted him to be able to dress appropriately for when he is in those environments.

Brian Lehrer: Jay, thank you very much. I do want to acknowledge that a number of people, Allison, are calling in or writing in to say things like why didn't they just give Fetterman a medical exemption because of whatever, the post-stroke or dealing with depression aspects of his clothing choices were. Someone else points out that he's like 6'8 and 270 pounds, so he's hard to find a suit for anyway. I guess there's the question of individual exemptions even if they keep the dress codes in place. I know you're not reporting on the Senate per se but have you run into that kind of thing in your fashion work?

Allison Bornstein: I know he's probably a little bit more of a challenge to dress in terms of his body, but I do feel like there are things that-- I was thinking this as the last caller was talking. I think there are things that he could wear that feel maybe slightly less "sloppy" but still feel comfortable and maybe adhere slightly more to the dress code. I feel like there's ways that we can play within it.

I feel like women do that all the time. Not anything against men but I feel like women, because our dress code isn't quite as strict, so I feel like we are often very good at playing within those parameters but still expressing ourselves. I feel like that's something that Fetterman could try maybe if he wants to wear a sweatshirt maybe it's something that is a little bit just slightly less "sloppy". Maybe something that fits a little bit better, or something that is maybe just like a darker color. I feel like there are ways to play around and still adhere to the dress code. That's my thought.

Brian Lehrer: Last time we had you on the show, you talked about your three-word style method for defining our personal style. Listeners, maybe some of you know, Allison Bornstein in that context, the three-word style of figuring out your personal clothing style. Would you say there is a three-word phrase you would apply to Senator Fetterman?

Allison Bornstein: Let me think. Yes, I think so. I think comfortable is definitely one, because clearly comfort is very important. Comfortable. Maybe oversize, because again, I think that maybe that goes into comfort, but I think that he likes a more oversized silhouette. He doesn't want to be squeezed. He doesn't want to be wearing anything that's too tight. Comfortable, oversize Maybe I'll use the word undone instead of sloppy. I feel like there's definitely the opposite of buttoned-up. There's a real undone, casual, and oversize vibe going on, which is not bad.

Brian Lehrer: For you as a clothing consultant, would you have any advice for him on how he can meet the formal dress code without sacrificing his, let's say, working-class values or his comfort and still be him?

Allison Bornstein: Yes, absolutely. I do think that there are options, like for example, maybe a trouser or a pant that maybe looks a little bit more like a suit pant or a trouser, but maybe something that has an elastic waist, or again, maybe a sweatshirt or a sweater that feels comfortable and easy and casual, but still, again, maybe in a darker color, maybe without the hood. I know the Senate is totally different, but I feel like in most workplaces, they just want you to look not sloppy. You can do what you want as long as you look put together. I feel like, again, there's ways for him to be comfortable but still look put together.

Brian Lehrer: You've developed your own method for cleaning out closets. I want to get to this before we run out of time, because it might be useful to a lot of people, what you call the A/B closet editing system. What does this involve?

Allison Bornstein: Yes. This is a closet editing system that, of course, intends to organize your closet and remove all the clutter and the things you don't wear, but simultaneously, this method helps you find your style and figure out what is my personal style. I feel like a lot of people don't realize that they have personal style, and you find it by looking in your wardrobe. This closet editing system is all about figuring out what you wear all the time and what you don't, and just again, going from there.

I just want me to give a little step-by-step quickly if anyone wants to do it. Step one is you pull out all of your regulars, and those are the things that you wear all the time. I have clients put those on the bed, or on the ground, or on a rack, just out of the context of your closet. I think often, when we look in our closet, we see everything as one. When we bring out the things that we wear all the time, it just puts it into a new context. Those are the regulars.

Then I have people pull out their nevers. Those are the things that they never wear. The things that don't fit them, the things that they don't like, or the things that they love but they never wear and they don't know how to style.

Brian Lehrer: All right, I have to jump in because Mayor Adams is about to speak with respect to the weather emergency in New York right now. Allison Bornstein, author now of Wear it Well: Reclaim Your Closet & Rediscover the Joy of Getting Dressed. Thank you, and here's Mayor Adams.

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