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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Saturday I will acknowledge was a big day for many families that include high school seniors, because May 1st is the day that many colleges annually require students to commit to where they're going to attend in the fall among the acceptances they got. This year there were so many factors in play. We know that enrollment nationwide and at some colleges more than others was down this current school year because of COVID.

Parents and students, if you're listening, how did that play into whatever decision you made about where to go, COVID opening and closing and remote and in-person policies, vaccine requirements for students, anything like that, and anything else that played into your decision? What schools were you choosing between and what school did you decide and tell us why? Give us some anecdotal evidence of what's going on in the college acceptance acceptance end of things over the last few days, 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280.

Also, among this year's headlines compared to last year, more Black and brown students had options like Cornell, NYU, and Harvard as acceptance rates for students of color increased by notable margins at a number of schools. For example, at Harvard, 18% of students accepted this year were Black, up from 14.8% last year. Black students made up 8.5% of the admitted class at the University of Southern California, up from 6%. Still small but significant in percentage terms. Latino students there made up 18% up from 15% out there in California.

At NYU, Black and Latino students make up 29% of admitted students up from 27%. There was also an increase in the proportion of first-generation students at NYU, 20% this year up from 15% last year. On all these points, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, and Brooklyn Tech, take note it can be done, but what's driving all these shifts? On the matter of racial equity and admissions, are we looking at a blip or a real trend toward equity at big-name schools many of which have long histories of racist gatekeeping?

Here to tell us more and help take your calls is Anemona Hartocollis, national correspondent for The New York Times covering higher education. You can read more on the racial equity part of this in her recent piece After a Year of Turmoil, Elite Universities Welcome More Diverse Freshman Classes. Hi, Anemona, welcome back to WNYC.

Anemona Hartocollis: Hi, Brian. It's good to be back. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, again, on whatever made you decide and your high school senior or maybe you are the high school senior, decide on whatever school this year, how'd you choose? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. Anemona, before we get into your article on more diverse freshmen classes in particular, what did you see as the big picture of the decisions that students and families were making this spring?

Anemona Hartocollis: I think that it's been a really difficult year for everybody and a really crazy year. A lot of factors have entered into those decisions, such as the social justice movement that we've experienced over the summer and the test-optional movement, meaning that that usually traumatic ritual of taking the standardized test is no longer necessary this year at most places. Also, of course, the way COVID has affected everybody, including our ability to take standardized tests. It's been a complicated year for admissions and it may be a change-making year. We're waiting to see whether the changes that took hold this year will hold for the long run.

As for the students making their decisions, I think as is the thrust of my piece, they're making them to a large degree the way they've always made them, I believe, but they're not changing that as much as we thought they might, but they are taking more chances and seeing how high they can go and aiming for more prestigious schools. I'm very curious to hear from people who call in how that's working out for them.

Brian Lehrer: What seems to be contributing to more diverse admissions, and how much is there to celebrate or not in your estimation? I read off those sample stats from a number of schools, which in percentage terms seemed like large increases, but for a lot of them, it's just really a few percentage points.

Anemona Hartocollis: It is a few percentage points, but you're right, a few percentage points can translate into a 20% increase. Thanks for reading those statistics off because I haven't memorized them, but they are in my piece. I can tell you that at Harvard, for instance, the increase in percentage points of students Black and also Asian students went up significantly will make a difference on the ground.

For Black students, if you're crossing Harvard Yard in the fall and all of those additional Black students who are accepted agree to attend Harvard, you'll be seeing 60-- if they had been admitted at this year's rate last year, you would be seeing 63 more Black students crossing Harvard Yard with you. In the school the size of Harvard, that is a significant number. I think it does make a difference.

Brian Lehrer: We can throw that out there too as a particular question in the segment. Listeners, if you are a parent or a student of color, how did you assess the racial climate on campus for yourself or for your child? What do you look for in assessing whether it's going to be a hospitable place and whether there's going to be as much equity as possible on any given school? What questions did you ask, how did you answer those questions for yourself with respect to the schools that you've chosen as well as any other factors?

For anybody who wants to call in on how you chose which schools to go to or for your kids who are high school seniors, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, with Anemona Hartocollis, higher education correspondent for The New York Times and her article After a Year of Turmoil, Elite Universities Welcome More Diverse Freshman Classes. You can also tweet @BrianLehrer. Anemona, did I see correctly that the SAT's were used differently and in many cases last to determine admissions this year?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. [clears throat] Sorry. Absolutely, they were used differently. Normally, on the East Coast, students have traditionally taken the SAT for a college admission, it's been required. More and more that's shifted toward the ACP, but colleges suspended that requirement because of COVID for both tests. Way more than half of all four-year baccalaureate degree-granting colleges suspended it this cycle. They're also suspending it, most of them, for the next cycle. That is because it was physically impossible in many cases for kids to take the SAT or they had to go way out of their way to take it.

What are colleges doing? They're having to rely on other ways of judging students and that's through grade point averages and teacher recommendations and essays, personal essays. Those all raise issues for the future as well I think, but dropping the SAT requirement is a big social experiment in admission without standardized testing, which has been criticized for many directions for being biased against less affluent kids and minority kids who are not taking test prep to the same degree as more affluent kids.

Brian Lehrer: I just have to quote from your article on one of the students who you mentioned in the piece. Jaylen Cocklin, who's Black and now winds up having his pick of the litter of many great schools Harvard, Emory, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, but referring to him you write, he just grinded for the SAT, he said, using a free online program, books and lessons on YouTube and drove 45 miles because of the pandemic to take the first two SAT tests. That's both a good example of the obstacles, the barriers for students in general and of this year and I guess of why schools decided to scale back on its use.

Anemona Hartocollis: Yes, it is a good example of all those things. It's also a good example I think though of how you can transcend the barriers. Here's a guy who showed exceptional determination to do that and you could construe that as the repast to the critics on some level. I did not put the SAT scores of these students in my story because we all know that that's the thing that looms over your head for the rest of your life and why do you want to be identified in The New York Times forever by that? But I can tell you that he did very well by any measure.

Here's a guy for whom the expectation might've been that he wouldn't do so well because he's Black. He's relatively middle-class. His father is a retired police officer. His mother is a state procurement officer. He didn't take a Kaplan or a Princeton review case. He didn't spend a ton of money on review courses, but he grinded and I think that's really wonderful.

Brian Lehrer: Yuma in Glen Rock you're on WNYC. Hello, Yuma.

Yuma: Hey, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: I got your name right, I got our name wrong. Hi, thanks for calling in.

Yuma: Yes, of course.

Brian Lehrer: You're a high school senior I see?

Yuma: Yes, I'm a high school senior at Glen Rock High School in New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: Where'd you get in and where are you going?

Yuma: I got into UC Santa Barbara and American University and Fordham.

Brian Lehrer: Really different.

Yuma: Yes. I was planning to go to-- One of my top choices was Georgetown. Unfortunately I didn't get it in, but they usually-- My qualifications would be enough for other years, I would say, but this year it was a tough year I'd say.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. It was competitive. It's always disappointing when you don't get into your first-choice schools. Out of the three that you did get admitted to, how did you choose which one to accept?

Yuma: I've always wanted to go to California, so that was one of the big reasons. The program I wanted to study, they have a good program there.

Brian Lehrer: What is that program for you?

Yuma: I'm planning to do global studies.

Brian Lehrer: Yuma, good luck out there. I hope it goes great. Thank you so much for checking in with us.

Anemona Hartocollis: Brian, could I ask a question of Yuma?

Brian Lehrer: Of the caller? Yes, if you're still there. Are you still there?

Yuma: Yes.

Anemona Hartocollis: You are there. Did you submit SAT scores to Georgetown?

Yuma: Yes, I actually did.

Anemona Hartocollis: You did. Okay.

Yuma: I've heard some other students that didn't submit, and one of the students that didn't submit actually got in. [crosstalk]

Anemona Hartocollis: That's frustrating too. I ask because I did speak to the admissions director at Georgetown in the course of reporting this story and Georgetown, actually, he does like having SAT scores. Many of them are quite ambivalent about this. That's a place where an SAT score should help.

Brian Lehrer: Yuma, thank you. What was that admissions director’s reason for valuing the now so widely disparaged SAT scores?

Anemona Hartocollis: Those who like them say that they do provide an independent universal check on what students are able to do. There is some predictive value not just in the first year, but in subsequent years, at least at their schools. The Georgetown guy didn't say this, but other people made the point to me that great inflation is a problem if you start relying on grade point average to make decisions. Many schools, sometimes the most competitive schools that serve the most privileged students will be quick to start inflating those grades because they want their kids to get in because that's what everybody expects. That can be problematic as well.

Brian Lehrer: That's why they call them standardized tests, I guess, because they're standardized across everybody who takes them if we can have faith that the tests are not biased against certain groups and advantage others. Janice in Essex county, you're on WNYC. Hi, Janice.

Janice: Good morning. I was just calling to say that our son, he took the SATs, he was considered, or he was a finalist for the Meyerhoff Scholars and was actually awarded and turned it down and he ended up at Howard actually, and we are thrilled, got into BU, JHU. For us it was taking into account the climate of this country. Also, I went to a private elite university and I remember that all the Black men were always carded, asked why they were there. So I said to him, "I will sleep better at night at a place where my husband went to Howard, that he would be cared for in a different way, challenged, yes." I didn't know I would feel this way when we started out applying to colleges but in the end I just felt like, "Yes, I want to support."

I feel like to a certain degree as we continue to say, everyone needs to go to, not everyone, but we promote the idea about the elite universities, we are helping to move students away from HBCUs I think it's like, here is the golden ring. I think the value of being there at HBCUs cannot be understated or can be understated. We are happy with his choice and he's happy with his choice but I don't think it was-- If you asked us back in September when we started, or I should say last August, if this was where we thought he would end up most likely, no.

Brian Lehrer: That's so interesting. Anemona, any follow-up question you want to ask Janice?

Anemona Hartocollis: If I would just comment that I did hear this from another mother in response to my piece about how her child had chosen an HBCU even though, I think it was she, could have gone to an Ivy league school. I think that's a really interesting, maybe development out of this year when we have started to think about race and class and social justice. I also found that in my reporting, the students had been influenced by Black Lives Matter and the social justice movement to think of themselves as worthy of applying to a top school. I don't know, maybe I would ask her whether all that social ferment over this summer also influenced her child?

Janice: I would say definitely. That was definitely a part of it. I think up until the last moment he was still looking at schools like Duke and Yale. Then also we have to take into account the money. I will say, he did a program at Princeton and one of the things he commented on when he did a pre-college program there for Black students, he talked about how different it was than when he's at a school that is 50% Black, Hispanic, or Latina and really he is only one of maybe three Black students in the elite science and math program and just talking about the loneliness he felt in those settings because, of course, they split the students up.

I don't know how you can get diversity with only having three students. I had to actually go to the school and point that out like, "Splitting up the three students among all the classes so they're never in class together doesn't help diversity." I don't know what white students are going to be like, "Yes, I remember that one Black guy we had so much--" It just didn't make sense. They eventually decided to change that at the school to look at what it means to be in a class with people like yourself and to feel camaraderie in a different way.

Brian Lehrer: I bet that helped inform their decision to go to Howard, it sounds like?

Janice: Yes. I think he reflected back on that feeling of what it was like to be amongst really smart and gifted and funny and all the range of Black people that there are that he came home and said that was really a different way of interacting. That doesn't happen in my classes at school. So, yes, George Floyd, all of that mattered.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much. Please call us again. Good luck to your son.

Janice: Thank you both.

Brian Lehrer: We have a former admissions officer at an Ivy League college calling in. Let's talk to John in Brooklyn. John, you're on WNYC. Hi.

John: Yes, good morning, Brian. First-time caller. I listen to you practically every day and thank you for all the guests that you have. First of all, I am an African-American man. I'm a graduate of one of the so-called elite northeastern colleges and also a former admissions officer for both of those programs for undergraduates as well as the MBA program. I am happy to see that there's been some whatever pause in the use of SAT scores. I believe that they should be a component of the overall credentials of candidates but historically they've been overused especially in regards to minority students and candidates. I think this is a good thing and hopefully there'll be some other measurements that can better assess a candidate to not just to the elite schools but to all four-year colleges.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think some underutilized measurements might be if you have a thought about that?

John: Well, because candidates come from such a wide variety of backgrounds one of the emphasis that I and my colleagues in admissions offices placed on, which I don't think students use as much as they should and it might be singing to the choir, but basically extracurricular and volunteer activities in their communities that they began as early as possible so that they do have relevant and recent references for their activities in those volunteer programs. It could be working in a community soup kitchen, it could be helping with a wide variety of things that they can fit into their very busy schedules. That's one component that I believe is and has been very useful to see the overall background and interests of candidates as they move into their college and academic careers.

Brian Lehrer: John, thanks so much. So informative and thanks for your first-time call. Please call us again. Anemona, as we wrap this up, is it too early to even take a good guess at how some of the changes that were COVID-related and racial justice movement-related in the admissions process this year might become more permanent? I'm thinking of the story that we heard from Janice in Essex County and how that changed the thinking for her family.

I'm thinking of another student who you profiled in your article Jianna Curbelo who was accepted to Cornell of whom you wrote, she believed that protests kindled by the death of George Floyd had caught the attention of admissions officers inspiring some to draft essay questions aimed at eliciting students' thoughts on racial justice and the value of diversity. Do you think we saw a unique moment here or do you think we saw a year in a process of more ongoing change?

Anemona Hartocollis: It's a really difficult question to answer. I thought before writing the story that it was a year in the process of more ongoing change and I think probably that that is true but not as true as I originally thought it was because as I said before, there were admissions officers who were quite wedded to the value of standardized test scores. I think it's not a process that's easily changed in a year or two. However, it did strike me as something of a watershed year because of this confluence of all these factors, COVID and George Floyd and the test optional and people rethinking the course of their lives.

It reminded me of a story I'd written about Columbia University which from 1968 to '69, you remember '68 is when Martin Luther King was assassinated, it almost doubled the number of Black students at Columbia. That's not happening this time. It's not that drastic but I do think that there is something significant going on, and perhaps lasting in answer to your question.

Brian Lehrer: Anemona Hartocollis covers higher education for The New York Times and has a really interesting article about equity in admissions at Ivy private colleges this year. Anemona, thanks for coming on with us.

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