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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. Now we're going to look at some of the underlying issues in the ongoing TV Writers' strike. In the 15 years since the last Writers Guild strike, the landscape of film and television has so vastly changed. That's no surprise if you're a TV watcher. How many of your favorite TV shows right now aren't on "TV" at all, but instead on Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, or another streaming platform?

In this altered landscape, TV and film executives have shifted their priorities in favor of what they call franchises. We'll explain. The pandemic has continued to play out in the industry, and the rise of AI has workers, writers and producers alike alarmed about what may come. We'll spend a few minutes now getting into the business and economic factors that have driven Hollywood writers to strike, writers' concerns and demands, as the business model for making TV shows changes largely with technology.

With us now is Kate Fortmueller, assistant professor of Entertainment and Media Studies at the University of Georgia, and author of Below The Stars: How The Labor of Working Actors and Extras Shapes Media Production. Also author of Hollywood Shutdown: Production, Distribution, and Exhibition in the Time of COVID-19. Listeners, we are going to open up the phones, in this segment, for some of your calls from the picket line.

If you happen to be tuning into the show from the picket line, or anyone who watches TV, if you just want to ask a question or share a thought on the business of TV today with my guest, Kate Fortmueller, assistant professor of Entertainment and Media studies at the University of Georgia, 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Professor, welcome to WNYC. Thank you for some time today.

Kate Fortmueller: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: I'll start on the thought that while the strike isn't exclusively about pay, the reality that many TV writers and producers face now is a stark decline in pay over the last decade. From everything I've seen, a 23% decline, according to a Writers Guild contract bulletin. Is there something about the streaming model that has enabled this reduction in pay?

Kate Fortmueller: Yes, I think one of the things that's important to think about is that streaming is a shift in distribution, in some ways, maybe similar to premium cable, but in some ways, very different. It has largely been based on a subscriber model. In order to grow subscribers, streaming has really turned towards a global audience, not just a US audience. We have residuals for writers, established residuals, so payment for the replay of their material, although those numbers are not quite as good for streaming.

There are domestic numbers and then there are global numbers for that. The shift towards putting everything, globally, on a platform, has been bad for writers. The shift away from ad revenue as a primary model, although Netflix and a lot of these streaming services have brought on an ad tier. Overall, this global subscriber model has been one of the fundamental things that has been a shift, that's not great for the creatives in the industry.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not sure I totally understand that. Many of the listeners may not understand it either. If what used to just be produced for a US audience is now produced for a global audience, and people are paying all over the world to access the content, why doesn't it add up to the same total, as to pay everybody, that they had before?

Kate Fortmueller: Part of that has to do with what's being negotiated. I think there's a way to think about this historically, and this might tie into what we're talking about, AI. Unions, when there's new technology-- Think back, 2007, 2008, that strike, when the writers were on strike before, and it was largely over the distribution of media on the Internet, which-- It's hard to imagine. It doesn't feel like that long ago, but it was that long ago, and that was a new thing.

It wasn't particularly common. When they were doing those negotiations, they were really trying to get a toehold to figure out how they would be paid when content moved online. What we've been seeing over the past 15 or so years are writers trying to incrementally increase their residuals. The percentage that they're getting paid, based on-- These calculations are extremely complicated, and are based largely on where something was released, and then where it was playing later.

It's hard to give a precise number, but these are very very small percentages. Largely, the money that's coming in from subscribers is supporting the big companies, like Netflix, Amazon, and Apple.

Brian Lehrer: Another issue, in the old days of TV, most or very many shows had seasons that went for most of the year, basically the school year, followed by summer reruns. Now, many of the biggest hit shows have short seasons. If the shows are popular, why are the seasons being made shorter?

Kate Fortmueller: Some of their popularity might have to do with why they're being made shorter. I think they're paying writers less in order to do that. This is, in some ways, increasing their profits. Netflix-- I'm relying on Netflix because they really are the leader in a lot of these practices. Companies like Netflix really rely on a constant stream of new content to keep their subscribers happy.

What they're trying to prevent is something called churn, which is the tendency for subscribers to come on, say, for Stranger Things, and then immediately drop the service. Which is different than when we all had to sign up for a year-long cable package, that would then go up after the second year. These shows allow them to-- They're written more quickly. They can produce them in a shorter period of time, get them online, and hook viewers for a longer period of time than just a movie, for example.

Brian Lehrer: When the union says the studios are creating a gig economy inside a union workplace, a gig economy inside a union workplace. Is that about the short seasons of work followed by periods of layoff?

Kate Fortmueller: Yes. In all honesty, Hollywood does have this really long history. We think about the beginnings of Hollywood, if you've heard anything about Hollywood history, there was the studio era, where people were kept under contract. There were always people who were on a short-term, more freelance contract. Basically, what has been happening over the past, probably 20 or so years, is that Hollywood has really been ramping up something, which was less common in earlier eras of Hollywood's history.

Brian Lehrer: One of the changes ushered in by the streaming age is the rise of what they call the mini-room. Can you describe what that means, and how it's different from the writers' room of old?

Kate Fortmueller: Yes, the mini-room, if you're interested and are looking at the writers' updated-- What they were negotiating for, what the alliance of motion picture and television producers came back with. That's phrased as pre-green light rooms. Essentially, what they're asking for in these rooms are a few people to come in before the show has been greenlit, to then break the entire season or map out the entire season.

This is essentially paying fewer writers, forming a group of people to do this without bringing them in, necessarily, to get their episodic fees, writing from week to week. They're paying them significantly less, in order to get the show mapped out. That's really what we're trying to work against, is something that will pay them less for basically the work that would have paid them a living in the past.

Brian Lehrer: We'll get into AI, artificial intelligence, and where that comes into the strike and the business model for television shows, in a minute. On the things that we've discussed so far, do you see a set of solutions that both sides can be happy with and produce enough pay, and enough profits? We have indications now that this strike is going to go on for a long time. They just canceled the Peabody Awards ceremony, and that's not till June 11th, because of the Writers' strike.

Kate Fortmueller: The University of Georgia's Peabody Awards,-

Brian Lehrer: That's right. [crosstalk]

Kate Fortmueller: -located in [unintelligible 00:09:35].

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for honoring Katie Thornton, from On The Media.

Kate Fortmueller: [laughs] On behalf of my institution-- Of course. I think there is a lot of indications that this will go on for a long time. I would say, beyond thinking about what has been canceled in the future, I think there's a couple of indications as to why that is the case. The MPTP came back with counters, not necessarily very good ones, compared to what the WJ was asking for, in terms of residuals, but some of these bigger issues around mini rooms and changes to AI--

Some of the things that are fundamental changes to the work, they were not willing to have a conversation about. I think the MPTP needs to really come back and open up conversations about more than just things that have been on the table since the 1950s. The industry is changing, and they need to bring writers, and eventually, they're going to need to bring actors and directors then, because those contracts are expiring at the end of June, as well.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call here. Here's Jack, in Queens. You're on WNYC. Hi, Jack.

Jack: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Two questions. One, in the old days, unions or unions [unintelligible 00:11:09] respect picket line. I was wondering if the actors, the stagehands, and the whole industry is respecting the picket lines, and whether that would make the strike shorter. The second question is that, also, in the old days, episodes used to be nearly an hour long, now they're 40 minutes long.

It seems there's a lot more commercials, a lot more money-making. Where are those profits going? Are they going to the workers? Are they going to profits?

Brian Lehrer: Jack, thank you. Of course, it depends on the show, and it depends on the platform. Maybe what you said is true on cable TV, the shows on the streaming platforms, by and large are not interrupted by commercials. Professor Fortmueller, how would you answer his questions?

Kate Fortmueller: I'll start with the picket line, actually. One of the things that's been really incredible about this particular strike is how much solidarity the other unions are showing. I think if you're anyone following the Teamsters, and Lindsay Daugherty, who's a real strong hand with them. The Teamsters have said that they will not cross any active picket lines. Writers were out in the morning early striking, the whole Teamsters aren't crossing. [unintelligible 00:12:38] is out with them, SAG-AFTRA is out with them.

The hospitality workers in Los Angeles, even the hotels, one of Chateau Marmont recently unionized, in that entertainment unions came out in support of their union. The hospitality workers in Los Angeles have said that they will not be facilitating productions, and they're supporting the strike. There really is some widespread support. I agree that normally, you would say, "Okay, this means that-- This is a widespread shutdown, this will end sooner." I think the thing that is different is really the streaming landscape.

Think back, if we think back to COVID-- None of us really want to think back to COVID, but if you think back to spring 2020, largely, what shut down were network-- We had network productions. We weren't getting necessarily any new things after maybe a week, on broadcaster cable, but streaming had a lot of things in the pipeline, that they were able to put out there. A lot of that has to do with how they write, shoot, and do post-production, so they can continue-- Things are continuing to go into post-production.

There's a lot of places where things are continuing to shoot, where there aren't necessarily active picket lines. The showrunner for House of The Dragon has said they will continue production. It's a really different production landscape. Streaming has a lot of stuff stockpiled. I think as an indicator for how long they might feel they can go, I would say think back to streaming, and when did things get dire? When did they really need to go back into production? It wasn't really till the end of the summer.

Brian Lehrer: People in other job categories in the industry, especially if they're gig workers, are going to be put out of work for a while by this, in support of the strike.

Kate Fortmueller: Yes, I think this is one of the things that's really hard about a strike. Ultimately, you're planning for the future, but in the short term, strikes hurt everybody.

Brian Lehrer: I think we have a caller who is in the industry, not a writer, and maybe not so happy about it. Tim, in Sunnyside, you're on WNYC. Hi, Tim.

Tim: Hi. I've been in the television industry in New York for over 20 years, and I don't have a tremendous amount of sympathy for this. I own a fabrication shop and we fabricate set pieces, everything from a news desk for a talk show, to sets and props for scripted TV. I have to prove myself every day for, I think, 23 years. I bid on a project, I've proven myself to be worthy. I get the project, I produce it, and then, the next day, I have to go out and prove it again.

I think it's a little bit elitist for the writers to take this approach. We diversify when there's a strike. We design set pieces and props for trade shows, for conventions, we go out, we adapt, and we earn it.

Brian Lehrer: Right. You're a contractor. I guess the writers who have been staff workers don't want to have to be seen as independent contractors. Is that a fair way to put it, Tim?

Tim: Yes, I would love to have a contract too, but I'm not going to go picket for it. I go out and I try to prove my worth, people like me, they hire me, and for 23 years, [unintelligible 00:16:37], and I think that's a fair system.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Good luck out there. Do you think there's a lot of that sentiment, professor Fortmueller, that if it's widespread, would really be tough on the writers?

Kate Fortmueller: Yes, I think it's something that's hard to quantify. I think there's a lot of reasons that people can be sympathetic or not sympathetic with a strike. Whether it's about audience members who just think that, basically, this is a glamorous industry and people make a lot of money, regardless of what numbers are out there, or whether or not they think that they should all be contract, and the work should change in these fundamental ways.

I think that in this case, if you're thinking about jobs and what that career is, when you go into it, this is an industry that-- Writers have been unionized since the 1930s. This career has-- There are certain things that you know about it when you go into it. It's hard, it's competitive, and they do have to prove themselves pretty constantly. A lot of things have changed. The game has changed in a lot of ways, with these streaming companies.

Brian Lehrer: We've got about a minute and a half left, and I do want to touch AI. From a New York Times story by chief television critic, James Poniewozik there, he wrote, "In essence, writers are asking the studios for guardrails against being replaced by AI, having their work used to train AI, or being hired to punch up AI-generated scripts at a fraction of their former pay rates." I guess all those things are real scenarios now, huh?

Kate Fortmueller: Yes, they're real. They're not maybe necessarily imminent, within-- We're not going to see this in 2024. In general terms, unions need to-- They need to start talking about things before the cat's out of the bag, so to speak. They need to establish that this is something that they can bargain on. They need to establish, as the article says, some guardrails, so that they're in on this conversation in the future, even if it's not necessarily something that's going to happen tomorrow.

Brian Lehrer: Real quick, you're in Georgia, and that's become a bit of a hub for film and TV production. Are you seeing these labor issues play out in your backyard? We have about 15 seconds.

Kate Fortmueller: As somebody who is living in Athens, I'm not actually seeing anything. I know that there is some rumblings about some actions here. At this point, last I heard, only four productions have been paused in Georgia. Other things are continuing.

Brian Lehrer: My guest has been Kate Fortmueller, professor of Entertainment and Media Studies at the University of Georgia, and author of Below The Stars: How The Labor of Working Actors and Extras Shapes Media Production, and Hollywood Shutdown: Production, Distribution, and Exhibition in the Time of COVID-19. Thanks so much, Professor Fortmueller, very informative.

Kate Fortmueller: Thank you for having me.

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