Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Matt Katz, reporter in the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom filling in for Brian today. A recent report from New Jersey's Gun Violence Research Center shows that one in five New Jerseyans live in a home where a firearm is kept, and 10% are unsure of whether there is a firearm at home, or they refused to answer the survey question.

Joining me now to break down the findings of this report that looked into who owns firearms in New Jersey, how many they own, and why they say they own guns is Mike Anestis, associate professor at the Rutgers School of Public Health and the executive director of the New Jersey Gun Violence Research Center. Welcome to WNYC, Prof. Anestis.

Prof. Anestis: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Matt Katz: Listeners, we're going to open up the phone lines right away to our New Jersey listeners who own guns. What do you want others to know about why you own guns or a gun? How do you store your firearms? Do you store them near ammunition? Do you ever carry your guns in public, and why? Or anything else you'd like to share about this issue. You can give us a call at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can also tweet us @BrianLehrer.

Mike, before we get into some of the findings, let's talk about your organization. It's relatively new. I'm not sure a lot of listeners have heard of it. New Jersey's Gun Violence Research Center. It's among the first state-funded research centers in the US looking at the "Causes, consequences, and solutions to gun violence." Does the organization position itself one way or another when it comes to gun ownership or the Second Amendment?

Prof. Anestis: No, we don't actually, and I think that's really important. I think the instinct a lot of people are going to have is to assume we have some sort of anti-firearm agenda. We don't really have an agenda, either way, other than to say we want people not to get hurt or to die, so we work with firearm owners all the time. That's what most of my work involves. In fact, we're not here to push a political agenda from the left or from the right. We just want to keep people safe and use data to help us find the path to that outcome.

Matt Katz: Why did you want to do this survey looking at gun ownership in the Garden State? What were you trying to understand?

Prof. Anestis: Well, a few things. From time to time people will talk about how many people own firearms in this state or that state, and we've seen those numbers pop up. There's been an unprecedented surge in firearm sales across the US, including in blue states like New Jersey, over the last couple of years. We wanted to check in and see if things might look a little bit different when we take a look at things now.

Also, a lot of folks haven't been asking the types of questions we asked here. Like, where are you storing them? Has a physician ever asked you about your firearm access? Those types of questions are really important when we're trying to understand how safe folks are being, and whether we're doing all we can to reach out to help them.

Matt Katz: What did you find? Was there something that was particularly surprising to you? I mean, obviously, you're steeped in this issue. Was there something that you found that you thought might go in the opposite direction but didn't?

Prof. Anestis: I think a few things were a little bit surprising. Not a lot of folks have asked about how frequently people carry their firearms outside their home. We broke that down by all sorts of different demographics. The thing that stood out to me is the group that was most likely to say that they carry their firearms with them outside the home always, or almost always, were 45 to 54-year-olds. Which isn't the age group you necessarily think about, and it makes you wonder. We'll certainly follow up with this with more data collection.

It makes you wonder why these folks? Is it that these folks are feeling particularly at risk? Is this something they're doing as a display of freedom and a way to express their rights? We don't really know, but it's not the group I would've expected for sure.

Matt Katz: Wow, that's interesting. I wonder if it has to do with their political leanings. Did you find any insight on political leanings and how that is reflected by gun ownership?

Prof. Anestis: Yes, absolutely. As you might expect, folks who are endorsing more conservative beliefs are more likely to own firearms for sure. Once you get past that firearm ownership, if everybody owns a firearm, the political leanings don't have as massive an effect on how people store their firearms, but they have some.

Then in terms of carrying their firearms, it looks pretty similar. You're more likely to be carrying your firearm with you all the time if you lean Republican, but if you're a Democratic firearm owner you carry your firearm just about as often as if you're a Republican firearm owner. Once you're within that group of firearm owners it's a different-- The political leanings tell you more about whether you're going to have a firearm in the first place. Although I'll say I think some of that's changing over the last couple of years.

Matt Katz: What about race? Were you able to identify any difference between the carrying of firearms between white New Jerseyans and Black New Jerseyans? Anything along those lines?

Prof. Anestis: Yes, absolutely. There are some pretty stark differences on that front. If you identify with any racial identity other than white, you're just far more likely to carry your firearm on you outside the home whether you're talking occasionally or especially if you're talking about always or almost always. Why that might be, certainly this data can't tell us for sure, but there are a lot of reasons. It could be that folks live in less safe neighborhoods or feel less safe.

It could be that there are strained relationships with law enforcement. Some folks feel potentially that they need to carry to keep themselves safe if they're not certain that the environment's going to do that for them. Right?

Matt Katz: Yes.

Prof. Anestis: I think that there are a lot of important questions we need to ask to better understand this. The trick with carrying firearms is that we're asking folks to disclose some pretty personal information, and we're also assuming that folks who own firearms illicitly will answer.

One of the things that might be missing from this report is also folks who are carrying who maybe came to their firearm access not necessarily legally. We need to find a way to be able to speak with those folks and elevate those voices to understand what they're going through and how we can help.

Matt Katz: Let's do a little survey of our own and go to the phone lines. Amy in southern New Jersey. Hey, Amy. How are you?

Amy: I'm great. How are you? Thank you for speaking about this subject.

Matt Katz: Oh, sure thing. You're a gun owner, is that right?

Amy: Oh yes. Yes.

Matt Katz: Tell me about why you own firearms.

Amy: Well, we enjoy the sport of it. We like to go out to the range and just go shoot what we call targets or plinking, and of course for self-protection, home protection. They are legally stored because that is the law in New Jersey now. We don't have any children in the home but we do have each a separate safe, one for the cartridges or ammunition, and for the firearms themselves. The rule is for gun owners, most gun owners you really never reveal how many guns you have to even family or close friends. It's just something you really shouldn't do because people like to talk, and that's the reason why we have them.

We don't hunt. We have many friends down in this area that do hunt for food, but that's the reason why we own them. We're not going to sign up, as you know, for the new concealed carry because we don't know all the ins and outs, and it's going to be very difficult. All the rules are very hard. I think it's going to be very difficult. I don't think it's a good idea, the new concealed carry.

Matt Katz: Oh, you don't? This is the new Supreme Court ruling that will allow many more people to carry concealed weapons out of the home even in states like New York and New Jersey where it's been quite restrictive to this point. You say you don't think it's a good idea for the concealed carry laws to be opened up like this?

Amy: Yes. I really don't because I think it's going to be very, number one, difficult to obtain the permit because you have to take a course. You have to be able to hit the target at 25 yards, which is going to flush out many people. People don't realize the difficulties. You're going to have to go, I believe, before a judge. Maybe your guests know if that's true or not.

I think it's going to become a lot-- I don't even know.

I think you're putting yourself in a really big predicament because once you pull that trigger you better be sure that your life is going to change in one second of an instance, and I don't want to be put in that position at all. I don't think people are thinking straight about this. I think it's a very bad idea.

Matt Katz: That's a very interesting perspective, Amy. Really appreciate you calling in. Thanks so much.

Amy: Thank you.

Matt Katz: Mike, it's interesting she didn't want to say how many weapons she has in her home. There's a phrase in the survey that keeps coming up during the survey you did, which was that there were many New Jerseyans who refused to answer the question. If my kids may be visiting Amy's children at her home, maybe I would want to know how many weapons she has, where the bullets are stored, and how safe they are. There's an issue here maybe in terms of the privacy needs that some gun owners feel that they have, and then the right for people to understand what's happening in people's homes, I guess.

Prof. Anestis: Yes, absolutely. The first thing I'll say is I really do appreciate Amy pointing out the safe storage in her home. Not just that firearms are stored in a safe, but stored separately from ammunition. I can't stress enough how much that improves safety in the home. Like you said, a lot of folks, both in our survey and then from the caller here, don't necessarily like to disclose that much detailed information about their firearms. I think it's important to understand that, again, firearms are expensive, so people worry about theft.

Also, I think there's a certain amount of identity that gets involved or is a part of firearm ownership, and some privacy and autonomy that matters. The more folks want to know, the more it feels invasive, I think, to a lot of firearm owners. it's the same way a lot of folks don't want to talk about their health conditions or other things they consider private. Yet at the same time, I agree if, for instance, my children are going over to a home I'd want to know are there firearms in the home and are they stored safely.

Now, do I need to know how many there are if I knew they're all stored in a safe and separate from the ammo? Maybe not, right? I would love to create a situation where folks feel comfortable talking about their situation, don't feel the need to hide it so that that trust is there. I think a lot of our ability to have effective conversations and to work together can be impeded. When we don't quite trust each other, we kind of dance around speaking openly to each other.

Matt Katz: It helps when we speak openly to each other. Because it's fascinating that Amy is a gun owner but has hesitations about the Supreme Court ruling that's going to allow many more people to have concealed weapons out of their homes. Right?

Prof. Anestis: Absolutely.

Matt Katz: I mean, this is not a Black and white situation when it comes to gun ownership.

Prof. Anestis: Absolutely. I think it's really important for the folks out there who maybe don't own firearms and don't know anyone who does to understand that a lot of firearm owners really do value safety, and that the most extreme voices don't represent communities. Does that mean that everybody views things safely and makes the same risk calculations? No. It means that I think there's a lot of room for us to have really effective, nuanced important conversations about tricky topics like the Bruen ruling.

Matt Katz: Let's go back to South Jersey where, I don't know if you surveyed this, but maybe there are more gun owners down there, or at least a higher percentage of them. Ralph in Margate City, how're you doing, Ralph?

Ralph: I'm doing well, thanks. How are you today, Matt?

Matt Katz: Good, good. Thanks for calling in.

Ralph: Sure.

Matt Katz: You're a gun owner yourself?

Ralph: I formally am from North Jersey and I own two weapons. I have a shotgun and a handgun. Never had an intention of getting a handgun, but when I went to apply for the shotgun at the police station in North Jersey, as I was leaving with the application the clerk asked me, "Well, don't you want a handgun permit?" and I said, "No, that's not what I came in for." She said, "Well, it's the same process. If you ever decide to get a handgun you're going to have to go through the process again. You might as well just do it now because they'll do both at the same time, and you'll have it if you ever change your mind."

I figured, "Oh, that makes sense," so I applied for both. I was granted permission to own both. Went to pick up my permits, and as I was leaving with the permits the clerk said, "Oh, by the way, you have 60 days to purchase your handgun and then that permit expires." [laughs] I said, "Oh, that's interesting." Now all of a sudden the clock's ticking for something I didn't want to own in the first place, but I figured well, why not? That's how I came about owning two weapons.

Matt Katz: Wow.

Ralph: Both of them are secure in the house. The handgun is inaccessible to anybody but me. Neither are kept with ammunition. Both are breech-locked, which means there's a lock that goes through the firing mechanism, so you can't shoot them unless you can unlock the lock. I bought the shotgun initially for home protection, and that's all I'd ever used either one for. I have no desire to take my gun out of the house, handgun or otherwise. I hope we never get to a point in our civilization where I feel like it's necessary, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Matt Katz: Thanks very much, Ralph. Mike, do you have any questions for Ralph? You're a researcher on this topic. Any questions about gun ownership in New Jersey for Ralph?

Prof. Anestis: First, I again really applaud the secure storage and the willingness to tell that story. I think it's a story that doesn't get told very often and it's a really important one, so I want to thank you for that one. Also, that's a really unique story. I don't think in all the conversations I had with firearm owners I've ever come across someone whose path to ownership being sort of almost by accident. That's just really interesting.

I guess my question for you is you know-- and maybe this is too personal a question. That's totally fine. You know that the handgun is only accessible to you. Is that because it's stored with a biometric by chance?

Ralph: No, no, no. It's stored in a place that they won't find until after I'm not on the planet anymore. They take apart my house to sell my furniture and everything, and there it'll be, but its--

Prof. Anestis: [chuckles] Got it. Okay.

Ralph: Nobody [inaudible 00:15:44] where it's at. [chuckles] The other funny thing about it was initially I had been thinking about getting a shotgun for many, many, many years just to have, as I said, for home protection. I grew up, my grandfather always had a shotgun in his closet, and I never acted on that. What pushed me to act on that actually was when my grandson was old enough I wanted to go and buy him a BB gun. I went down to a local sporting goods store to buy him a BB gun, a rifle, and a good old Red Ryder, if you guys all know that story-

Matt Katz: For sure. Of course.

Ralph: -and we was told I needed a gun permit to buy a BB gun. That's when I initially said to myself, "These laws are a little tough, and I feel like if I don't get a shotgun soon I might not be able to get one if I wait." Because I had never heard of having to have a gun permit to buy a BB gun before in my entire life. I grew up in New York, and I think New Jersey might be the only state that requires a gun permit for a BB gun; I'm not sure. That's what pushed me into the decision to get the shotgun in the first place. To finally cross that line.

Matt Katz: Then you ended up with a handgun. It's a slippery slope. Amazing.

Prof. Anestis: Yes. That went in a very different direction than you expected.

Matt Katz: Yes. Thank you very much for calling, Ralph. Really appreciate it. Thank you for sharing your story. Mike, Ralph said he doesn't think civilization is at the point where he needs to carry a gun outside the home. Can you give a sense of the thought processes for people like Ralph who think that civilization is at a point where they do need to keep a firearm in the home? Which is really for protection against a home invasion or a burglary when you're home. That's theoretically the only times that you would use it if you're not taking it out of the house.

Based on the data, how rational of a fear is that? How much safer does it make you to keep a gun in your home to protect yourself from those threats?

Prof. Anestis: The data tell a different story than the anecdote that drives people to purchase. The anecdote, like you said, is this concern of someone coming into the home in the middle of the night with bad intentions, and they're armed and ready to harm the homeowner, him or herself, or their loved ones. The idea is, "I need this tool to protect folks." You can understand the drive for safety. The data shows that's by far the most common reason for firearm ownership. It's also the most common reason to avoid storing a firearm safely.

What the data do tell us is that-- for instance, I'm a suicide researcher and a clinical psychologist. When a firearm is stored in the home, the risk for suicide goes up three to five times for everybody in that home compared to homes without a firearm. The risk goes up even higher if the firearm's stored unsafely. Which, again, I keep saying I'm so thrilled these callers are pointing out this wonderfully secure storage that they have at home. If that's not the case, the risk goes up even higher.

You also see increased risk for theft and subsequent trafficking of those firearms. Increased risk for children unintentionally shooting themselves or someone else when they access the firearm, and also the risk that domestic violence becomes fatal. It goes up when you have a firearm in the home. You have a lot of other risks, and I think the issue is for a lot of folks those risks don't feel real. They don't feel relevant to them. That's not me. That's someone else. What feels real to them is this anecdote which isn't likely to be real. When that's the risk calculation you're making, you understand why people are going in that direction.

It's our job to find other ways to make folks feel safe at home without bringing that much risk in the home. If they do choose to bring it in, encouraging things like secure firearm storage and legal storage outside the home during times of stress.

Matt Katz: We're going to take a quick break. This has been a fascinating conversation and we're going to get right back to it. Back in a minute with my guest Mike Anestis from the New Jersey Gun Violence Research Center at Rutgers. When we get back we'll take more of your calls. Stay with us.

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Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. I'm Matt Katz, a reporter with Gothamist and WNYC. I'm filling in for Brian today, who has this fall Friday off. I'm joined by Dr. Mike Anestis. He's a professor at the Rutgers School of Public Health, and he's telling us about a recent study he did about who owns guns in New Jersey. Mike, is there any difference in gun ownership or in the safety measures that gun owners might take in storing their weapons between households where there are children living there and households without children?

Prof. Anestis: Yes, actually, and our report does not dig into that like some others do. Yes, that's a pretty common pattern of firearms are often stored more safely in homes where there are children, which is a great pattern. What I will say is more disturbing as a parent myself. The pattern that I've seen in the data is there are studies that show if you ask parents, "Have your kids ever accessed your firearm? Do they know where they are?" they'll frequently say, "No, of course not." Then when you interview the children of those same parents they say, "Oh yes. I used that last Wednesday." There's a really shocking disconnect between what parents think their kids know and do, and what the kids say they know and do. There is more secure storage in the home, but is it as secure as you would like it to be? No, probably not.

Matt Katz: What did your data find about guns in cars? About how many New Jerseyans are taking their weapons in their cars, and then how many are carrying them in public? What do we know about that?

Prof. Anestis: Fortunately, again, New Jersey firearm owners store their firearms more securely in general than you see in any survey of other places I've looked at, so that's great. There's still always a group of folks who aren't following best practices. What we see in our report is that a little over 10% of New Jersey firearm owners always store their firearms in their vehicles. We've seen other reports saying that that's particularly common among new firearm owners. Folks who purchased for the first time ever in the last couple of years.

The problem with that is a couple of things. One big problem is theft. Cars are broken into, firearms are stolen, and then again stolen firearms are often trafficked and used in crimes. There's downstream contributing to folks getting shot and killed that was not the intent of the firearm owner. Also, you think about road rage incidents and what happens when there's a firearm available versus when there's not. It's concerning to think about. There aren't a whole lot of reasons why a firearm needs to be kept in the vehicle at all times. That's not to say no one ever needs to transport their firearm somewhere. That's different, of course.

Matt Katz: Sure.

Prof. Anestis: They're just generally keeping it stored, and especially if it's stored unlocked. Kept under the seat or on the seat as opposed to an unlocked glove box.

Matt Katz: It's hard not to think about guns and cars, and then New Jersey Turnpike and road rage. Is this something that happens on a regular basis? People pulling out weapons while driving?

Prof. Anestis: I wouldn't say regular basis. I apologize we're not having more specific numbers on this.

Matt Katz: Sure.

Prof. Anestis: This is a new issue that we're starting to ask about that we hadn't been asking about before, but it certainly happens. There's more opportunity to have it happen if newer firearm owners are the ones making this happen more often and often. If there's a new cohort of folks coming in who are just thinking about storage differently and wanting to keep the firearm on them at all times, or just don't want to bring them into the house, which might sound good, but instead they leave it in the vehicle, you're creating this situation where you're creating opportunity for violent road rage to happen because the firearm's there.

The reality is where there are more firearms there's more firearm injuries and deaths. If firearms are in the car, well, then that's where the injuries and deaths can happen.

Matt Katz: This is WNYC-FM, HD, and AM, New York; WNJT-FM 88.1, Trenton; WNJP 88.5, Sussex; WNJY 89.3, Netcong; and WNJO 90.3, Toms River. This is New York and New Jersey Public Radio. Mike, your report found that nearly 90% of New Jerseyans have never been asked about firearm access by a medical professional. I don't think I've ever been asked about firearm access by a medical professional. Why would that be a question that medical professionals ask?

Prof. Anestis: Sure. Again, I come at this a lot from a suicide prevention perspective. One of the tricky things about firearm access and suicide risk is that the folks most likely to die by suicide using a firearm are less likely to tell someone about it beforehand, and they're less likely to seek out mental healthcare. We don't know the risk, and so we can't always look to help people because they're saying, "Hey look, I'm having a hard time. Help me." Definitely help them, but what we know, as I said earlier, is when a firearm's in the home, risk for suicide goes up for everybody in that home by three to five times.

We need to find opportunities to reach out to and communicate with firearm owners and to encourage secure storage, or to encourage using things like the New Jersey Safe Firearm Storage Map to store outside of the home. You have to figure out who speaks to people regularly. Even though those folks aren't seeking out mental healthcare, just about everybody sees their primary care physician from time to time. That represents not the only, but one really important opportunity to normalize having a conversation about, "Hey, do you happen to have any firearms in the home? Can we have a conversation about how you store them and why there might be some circumstances you might consider differently?"

I will say I've only ever once been asked. I was living in Mississippi for a decade before I moved up here, and was never asked down there. Then during one of my children's wellness visits the pediatrician asked. I probably weirded the guy out by being excited that he asked that question, honestly. That's the only time it's happened for me too. I'm not trying to put this all on healthcare providers. It's simply one opportunity. What our findings show is that this opportunity isn't one that's being taken.

Folks like myself, I think, need to do a better job of getting medical professionals invested in feeling comfortable doing this. Asking questions in a way that doesn't alienate the patient and make them feel like they're being judged, but creates an opportunity, again, to normalize talking about safety.

Matt Katz: Yes. Right. Let's do one more caller before we let you go, Mike. Tom in Cedarville. Hi, Tom. Thanks for calling in.

Tom: Matt and Mike, thank you. This is an awesome means to discuss a subject that probably should be on a lot of people's discussion list these days. I'm an owner of a single handgun, and the way I came to own that gun is kind of a little bit convoluted. I was a range instructor in the military in the early '70s, and had some experience with handguns and long guns and rifles and things. After my discharge, I just never felt the need to own a gun or even fire another gun.

It was essentially, I'm going to say probably around 2015, 2016, when the polarization that's happening in this country now began to occur. I noticed a lot more focus on violence, on home invasions, on political disparity between NRA-type people and left-leaning liberal people. At that point I said, "You know what? It might not be a bad idea to follow the process and get certified to own a single weapon that I could keep in my home for protection." Now, I live in an adult-only home. It's just my wife and myself, no children at home. My handgun is secured. It is accessible should I need it.

I find myself now on a regular basis going to a range locally so that I can maintain my accuracy and my skills. I hope that I never, ever, ever have to take that weapon out of its lockbox, and I strongly oppose the ability that's being afforded to people now to do concealed carry. That's very frightening to me. I think that the political climate in this country doesn't lend itself to people not using weapons in the equivalent of road rage. It's really pretty scary. I'm happy to have a gun. I'm happy to have the privilege to own one, but it has a place in my life, and that place remains in its lockbox until I hopefully never have to use that weapon.

Matt Katz: Thank you so much for calling, Tom. That is a really fascinating perspective. I appreciate it. Mike, I'm going to let you go in a moment, but any final thoughts? I'm fascinated by the nuance that exists among gun owners when it comes to their perspectives on guns and safety. Some see it as a gun should only be in the home. Even though they believe in their right to exercise the Second Amendment and to own a weapon, but they believe it should be kept safe in their home and never taken out of it. It's really interesting how the perspectives vary. Right?

Prof. Anestis: Absolutely, and it's one of the reasons I really encourage people to step outside your own bubble from time to time and talk to folks who live differently than you. What you'll find is that the nuance is there for firearm owners, the nuance is there for non-firearm owners, but I think we often assume everyone's back in a corner in a very different sort of tribe than us and won't share any overlap. That's not the case.

Honestly, the great thrust of my work right now and my team's work is trying to leverage voices like these callers to help promote the idea of secure storage so that the message is coming from within the community. The folks who are maybe concerned or hesitant can hear their fellow firearm owners talk about the utility and the value and safety, and how that isn't a threat to identity. That isn't a threat to rights. It's just a path toward safety.

Matt Katz: Safety being the operative and most important word. Michael Hill from our newsroom just passed along a stat to me that nearly 200 children have unintentionally fired a gun that they found in 2022, resulting in more than 80 deaths. The work that you're doing in trying to understand what people know about how to keep their guns safe, and trying to spread the word about keeping guns in a home safe is very important, so we appreciate you coming on.

Mike Anestis, associate professor at the Rutgers School of Public Health and the executive director of the New Jersey Gun Violence Research Center. Mike, hope we can talk again.

Prof. Anestis: Yes. Thanks so much.

 

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