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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. I wish I could say the best thing I saw on Twitter while prepping for the show this morning was a brilliant thought about politics or policy, but it was actually a photo from the Buffalo News of the solar eclipse this morning that we could not see very much here in the New York City area, but that they could see up in Buffalo. Really breathtaking, with like an orange, yellow sunrise with the big fat crescent moon right over where the sun would be.

I saw it because it was retweeted by our first guest today, Karen DeWitt, the Albany bureau chief for New York State Public Radio serving nine public radio stations around the state, luckily, including us. Today happens to be, I'm going to call it the Harmonic Convergence of the solar eclipse and the last day of the New York State Legislature session for this year. It's a strange intersection of great beauty and the big last-minute package of bills for this time of year that goes by the nickname, The Big, Ugly. With that, as is maybe a very unusual lead into an Albany politics segment. Good morning, Karen DeWitt and welcome back to WNYC.

Karen DeWitt: Thanks for having me. I was almost up early enough for the sunrise but not quite, so like six o'clock. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: That must have been like five or six so you didn't see any of that? Could you see it and Albany? Could one?

Karen DeWitt: If I had gone to a location where the low horizon was clear, sure, but I have to admit with it being that last day of session, I wasn't that ambitious to get up at 4:30 and go travel to somewhere where we could see it. Oh well, next time.

Brian Lehrer: Next solar eclipse, 2067, or whatever it is.

Karen DeWitt: Right.

Brian Lehrer: Some of the last-minute bills I think we're about to cover include a bill to make it easier to vote by mail, a bill to make it easier to sue gun manufacturers after their weapons are used in crimes. A bill to make alcoholic drinks to go permanently legal after the pandemic, a bill to make it harder to look to lock people back up for minor parole violations, and a statute of limitations exemption for people who were victims of sexual abuse. Any other big ones just to add to the list before we start looking at some of the particulars?

Karen DeWitt: You've pretty much got a lot of them. There might be a couple more to add, but just one thing I would have to correct you from your intro, Brian, which is probably another rare occurrence, is that there's probably not going to be a so called Big Ugly piece of legislation this year, because Governor Cuomo facing all kinds of scandals is not very engaged in the end of session negotiations, and it usually takes a governor to bring this all together. We're actually not expecting to see that. The bills are surprisingly being negotiated independently, and rising and falling on their own merits.

Brian Lehrer: All right, let's look at the merits and let's start with voting rights. What's the new bill?

Karen DeWitt: Well, I think that's going to be extending your various voting rights. I have to admit that one, I'm not as familiar with some of the criminal justice ones that I have been looking at. I'm not sure that that one is going through the assembly yet, so I have to admit that I haven't looked at that one as much as I should have, I'm sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, we'll see what they produce, if anything, I think it has to do with voting by mail, without as much actual reason that you need to establish. All right, so let's talk about criminal justice.

Karen DeWitt: Which will actually end up being part of a constitutional amendment, eventually, even if these bills don't go. At that part, I can point out. That they will change the absentee voting law and that will be able to not have to say that you're out of town or sick, or some disability prevents you from going. Even if they don't get some of these smaller bills, eventually that is going to happen, hopefully by the 2022 elections.

Brian Lehrer: Republicans are saying it will increase the risk of voter fraud. We know voter fraud is the subject of the republicans big lie this year at the national level, so I guess we'll see how they make any substantive case that could it actually increase when this bill at the state level. I want to go into the drinks to go bill, I think we've all seen people outdoors in our lives with paper bags that they're sipping out of because you're not allowed to drink alcohol in public, and that extended to restaurants not being able to sell individual drinks to go, even though stores can sell bottles or cans of whatever. The pandemic brought an exception to that for restaurants, what would this bill change?

Karen DeWitt: Well, it would make it permanent that you could order drinks to go along with your dinner, as I'm sure many people have done during the pandemic. I know I've used it several times, it's pretty convenient. Just before coming on the air, I was at a press conference with the Restaurant Owners Association, the Tavern Owners Association, they're making a last-minute pitch for this bill to. One of the bills that they want would make it permanent, and other would at least give them a one-year law that they could still sell alcohol to go and then there would be a sunset.

They say, "Look, restaurants are not in any way recovered from this and this has just been a lifesaver." One restaurant owner said it's the difference of employing two bartenders instead of one if we have the mixed drinks and various drinks to go, but there's opposition from the liquor industry. We're not hearing much publicly about that, but behind the scenes, at least I hear that from the sponsors and the people who support the bill, the liquor industry doesn't want it because they want people to go to liquor stores to buy liquor.

They don't want a piece of their business being cut into and that right now it seems like the lawmakers are listening more to the liquor store lobby than they are to the restaurant. That's how it stands right now.

Brian Lehrer: I did not know about that tension between the restaurants and the liquor store owners. I guess it's funny that under the new marijuana law, you can smoke a joint anywhere in public where cigarette smoking is legal, more or less, but you can't still sit on a park bench and have a beer, right?

Karen DeWitt: The restaurant--

Brian Lehrer: I was just going to say if they changed--

Karen DeWitt: Go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: -if they changed that, then the liquor stores and the restaurants might both be happy.

Karen DeWitt: I know. I think it comes down to money and the liquor industry has more money. The restaurants, collectively, they represent a significant part of the economy but individual restaurant owners, frankly, can't give the big campaign donations. At least that's what the restaurant owners believe, is happening, that they're simply not putting up the money to get their bills passed. Also, one of the things we haven't mentioned is that the Capitol building is still closed to the public, despite the fact that Governor Cuomo has talked about all these things; reopening and sports stadiums, and theaters, and the Tribeca Film Festival.

The public can't get in and lobbyists like the restaurant owners and the tavern owners can't, the press conference had to be outside the Capitol. They feel like that's making a difference because they can't get in. The lawmakers don't see them in the halls and they don't have that contact so that their message is just not getting out to lawmakers.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe this is a stretch of a segue, but if you're the wrong person who gets busted for having a beer on a bench, something like that might get you sent back to prison for a parole violation. Tell us about the parole reform package that they're considering.

Karen DeWitt: Right. That's what I have been more focused on this week, because it's been pretty interesting. There's several parole reform bills, and one of them that looks like is going to happen today is called Less Is More and it would make it harder to send a parolee back to jail on a minor technical parole violation. There's a couple others, one known as elder parole, inmates 55 and older who've served 15 years of their sentence would get an automatic parole hearing.

Another one called Fair and Timely Parole, requiring the parole board to take a closer look at did the prisoner tried to rehabilitate themselves in prison, and give that more weight than the crime that they committed, which they might have committed many, many years ago. The latter to don't seem like they're going to be done today, but the Less Is More is going to happen. There's also a related bill called Clean Slate, that would seal criminal records for misdemeanors and many felonies. An earlier version would actually expunge these records.

The latest version said they would just seal them but prosecutors and judges could look at them if they're dealing with somebody in court, a defendant, they can look and see if they have a prior record. That bill that's being Albany last week of session, they made some technical mistake in how they wrote it, so it's probably not going to be ready to be voted on today. Even though the Assembly and Senate agree on it because the bill has to age, I know this gets technical, but a bill has to age for three days before you can vote on it.

Usually not a big deal in Albany because a governor usually gives a message of necessity and they can do whatever they want, but the lawmakers aren't getting along with Cuomo right now. It doesn't look like he's just going to say, "Okay, sure, you can pass this bill. I'm going to do you a favor." It looks like from what I'm hearing again, as of now, it could change later today, that that Clean Slate bill is not going to happen until possibly next January.

Brian Lehrer: Do you happen to know if the Parole Reform Bills got a boost from the recent deaths at Rikers Island? Two people, I talked about this with Mayor de Blasio on the show the other week, their names are Thomas Bronson and Richard Blake who were sent back to jail, one for shoplifting, one for a minor drug offense, small things. Then they died in custody at Rikers in April ages, 35 and 45. I haven't seen anyone allege foul play in their deaths, but this certainly highlights the risks of incarcerating people if it's not really necessary. Were Richard Blake and Thomas Bronson on Albany lawmaker's minds, do you know?

Karen DeWitt: Yes, I think that they probably were because that's why the so-called Less Is More, not automatically sending people back to jail and a technical violation, does look like it's going to go through. Certainly, there's many, many problems in the criminal justice system and many, many very upsetting events, which has fueled a lot of what's happened in terms of changing bail reform, changing the discovery laws. I guess one thing I would mention that's surprising is the elder parole and fair and timely parole has support in the Democratic-led states Senate.

The Democratic-led state assembly, which has often passed this more progressive kinds of bills, they are the ones who seem to be stalling this year. That and a number of bills, and because things are closed up around here, it's mystifying as to why the assembly is so slow to act on a number of these bills, including the anti-sexual harassment laws that you mentioned earlier.

Brian Lehrer: You did say in your reporting earlier that there are other criminal justice reform measures besides parole that are not getting passed. What's a good example of that?

Karen DeWitt: Well, I think probably I was referring to more the Clean Slate that's not happening.

Brian Lehrer: I see.

Karen DeWitt: They seem to be focused on the parole stuff. Some of them actually are starting to come through like the gun measures, which I guess I would put in there, that both houses have passed potentially making manufacturers liable if somebody causes harm with a weapon that they made, and also closing the loopholes so people can't make these so-called ghost guns where you can assemble an AK-15 with all the different components from different places. You don't have to register it. You don't have to get background checks, but actually, those look like now they are going to happen.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, any questions for New York State Public Radios, Karen Dewitt in Albany about what's happening on what is supposed to be the last day of the New York state legislature; (421) 646 435 7280. So many different kinds of bills in play and here on the last day, the likely last day. We'll get into some of the Cuomo troubles too, with maybe some developments on that or maybe we're all just sitting around asking why aren't there developments on that; 646, 435 7280 or tweet a question @Brian Lehrer. Karen, the ghost guns is one thing, the homemade guns. There's also the gun liability part, right?

Karen DeWitt: Yes. That's surprised me that that did pass both houses and this is why it just seemed a little disjointed this year. We have not gotten any kind of big announcement. That's a big bill, sponsors certainly are touting it, but the leadership in both houses have not put out a release saying, "How good this is. That we're doing this. This is something we really wanted to do." It's strange. In fact, it wasn't really widely reported on. I had it confirmed like a day before, I think other people did. Then I was thinking really, is this really happening? Usually, this would be a big deal.

As I said, it's strange with the Capitol closed down. The assembly's been very quiet, the governor's disengaged. I also wonder if Governor Cuomo will sign that liability bill. He has been very much pro-gun control, but he hasn't said anything about it either. It's strange. I think that's pretty a momentous bill with consequences and there just hasn't been a lot of talk about it. It was quietly passed. That just seems strange to me.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I know you're not a legal editor, but have they explained how someone wins a suit like that? If the defense is, "Hey, we made a legal product," and maybe the gun was even sold legally at first and then someone used it in a crime or resells it illegally to someone else who uses it in a crime. How is that the manufacturer's fault under this law?

Karen DeWitt: I don't know. Not being a lawyer, I would just say a good lawyer could maybe make a case. If it is the law, it says, if it's the gun creates a public nuisance or harms public safety or health, that's pretty broad. I think they expect say would go. We'll probably see that in the court if the Governor signs it. We really don't have a read on where the Governor is on any of these bills, frankly, which is also unusual.

Brian Lehrer: Why not one? [crosstalk] Go ahead.

Karen DeWitt: I'm sorry. There's a little bit of a delay there. I think that the governor will be kind of forced to maybe sign some of these bills, but he usually likes to be the one in charge of them getting passed and taking the credit. Really this year has not really liked being in that position since he's been weakened with all the scandals that he has to go along with what the legislature wants, and say, "Oh, yes, sure. I was for this all along."

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we apologize for the slight delay on the line between me and Karen DeWitt. Albany is a long way and it takes sound time to travel.

Karen DeWitt: That must be it. I think we're just this whole year, and year and three months, so many technical glitches, we're just used to it, I guess.

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely. I want to go onto the Adult Victims of Sexual Abuse Bill. People will remember the recent Child Victims Act, which extended or reopened the statute of limitations for filing charges against an adult or suing an adult who abused you when you were a child, what does the adult version do?

Karen DeWitt: Well, it would also give a one-year window so that survivors could sue their abusers even if the statute of limitations has run out. It is modeled very specifically on the so far pretty successful Child Victims Act. It would also apply to some of the crimes that Governor Cuomo is accused of doing, which we should point out that he denies that he did. It would put him in an awkward position. It's been passed by the Senate, but the assembly has not acted on it. It doesn't look like they're going to act on it today. It probably is not going to happen.

The Senate also passed a number of anti-sexual harassment measures. One closed a loophole that actually legislators, senators, assembly members, the Governor's office, they were exempt from a lot of the anti-sexual harassment laws because of a murky status of some of the employees. That would close that loophole and make those employees able to have those protections as well. They also would outlaw, sometimes victims get coerced into signing agreements that say they'll never work somewhere again.

That's happened to a number of former female legislative aides who work in the legislature where they had to sign agreements, even though they were the ones saying that they were wronged, they had signed agreements saying, "I will never work in the legislature again," which is a punishment to them. Those are bills that you would think normally the assembly Democrats would pass. Those are also stuck in the assembly as well and don't look like they're going to happen today.

Brian Lehrer: Amy in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Karen DeWitt in Albany. Hi Amy.

Amy: Hi. How are you? I wanted to ask your guest, I didn't hear what she said about the Bail Reform Bill. I was curious what I missed?

Brian Lehrer: We were talking more about a Parole Reform Bill. We know that the Bail Reform Bill that the legislature previously has been controversial, at least in New York City, where some people, including the mayor and the police commissioner, saying making it easier to not have bail has contributed to the increase in violent crime in the city. Other people dispute that and say, no, it's only about how much wealth you have, whether you get locked up for the same crimes pending trial. Are they revisiting the bail reform act to undo some of the reform that they did?

Karen DeWitt: Well, the short answer is no. Upstate cities have also seen a rise in crime and shootings that we have not seen in decades. I know law enforcement groups would like it revisited. The District Attorney's Association would like it revisited. They say there's some ways that make it easier that if you do have to post bail, that you only have to post a very small fraction of money for a bond.

The intention is not to put people in jail or hold them unnecessarily, but they think that's a loophole that might let some repeat criminals keep getting out of jail, and that's the very small number of people who are responsible for a lot of these shootings.

No, the Democrats, they just passed the Bail Reform last year. They are not ready to revisit it or, frankly, even entertain the idea that there might be flaws in it. That's why we're seeing the Republicans, they're in the minority here. They don't have a lot of power, but they're putting a lot of push back on a lot of the Parole Reform that we mentioned and the Clean Slate saying, "Hey, look, we got to make sure that Bail Reform worked the right way before we enact more of these laws." Frankly, there may be some moderates in the assembly that feel that way, and that's why some of these bills are being held up in the assembly.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to take our first break, and during that break, we're going to alter the speed of sound and fix the delay, we think, between New York and Albany, and then we'll take more of your calls for Karen DeWitt, New York State Public Radio, Albany Bureau Chief. We'll also get into the latest on some of the Cuomo scandals and a lot more. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC. On the last day of the New York State legislative session for 2021, at least it's supposed to be, as they try to scramble together votes on all kinds of bills, on all kinds of issues have been going down, some of them with Karen DeWitt, the Albany Bureau Chief for New York State Public Radio. She serves nine different public radio stations around New York State, luckily, including us. Let's go right to another phone call. Peter in Syosset is calling about that ghost guns bill. Peter, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Peter: Good morning, Brian. Apparently, it's not illegal to buy these parts, and as I understand it, it's mostly to do with the central part where the serial number is. What I don't understand is, is it already illegal to own an assault weapon in New York State, whether you assemble it or not?

Brian Lehrer: Karen, do you know?

Karen DeWitt: Yes, that's a good question. I guess it's a way to get away with it. If you go to a gun store and buy an assault weapon, then you do have to register and you're subject to the background check, but if you get these things and assemble it in that way, then you can avoid the store. I guess it's a loophole that some people are apparently exploiting.

Brian Lehrer: Betsy in Brooklyn wants to talk about the deep history behind the no takeout cocktails law that they're trying to reverse. Betsy, you're on WNYC.

Betsy: Hi, Brian. Well, I have two points. One, the first point is that, look, home bartenders are not going to stop buying bottles of liquor and making drinks at home. It's the same thing as cooking at home and getting takeout from a restaurant. You do not see supermarkets saying the restaurants shouldn't serve takeout. My larger point is that, look, these conflicts, this competition between liquor stores and restaurants is a hangover from prohibition, and the restrictions and laws that were set up to stop monopolies in the liquor industry. Well, they have not stopped monopolies in the liquor industry, and they have created some barriers that make it so that we can't have a creative solution.

The fact is that states are in control of many of these laws. In a place like California, in Los Angeles, at a restaurant like John and Denise, there is actually a wine shop inside the restaurant which operates as its own business, but also runs the wine for the restaurant. In Pennsylvania, which has a state-controlled liquor board, restaurants also, there's now a special license where they can have a takeout wine shop within their restaurant. A lot of this is in the power of the state legislature to come up with some creative solutions so that there is not a ton of competition between liquor stores and restaurants, and they can be working together.

Brian Lehrer: Really [crosstalk] Go ahead, Karen. Go ahead.

Karen DeWitt: Betsy is right. They do seem to be operating in the state on 1935 prohibition laws, and the liquor store owners and industry, they'll use that at the State Liquor Authority that has to make this decision. They'll cite those laws to try to prevent some restaurants and bars from getting liquor licenses. Some of the history of it in the state is for years ahead of the state's Conservative Party, Mike Long owned a liquor store, and so that seemed like one of the reasons why the liquor stores were able to get their way on these things.

Right now, the only explanation that the restaurant tavern owners think is money, that the money is consolidated and they're donating more money to the lawmakers. I haven't put that question to them because actually we don't even see the legislative leaders now, which hampers me as a reporter, but nobody's really saying out loud why this bill isn't going through.

Brian Lehrer: Betty, I like how you called it not a holdover from prohibition, but a hangover from prohibition. I just want you to know I noticed. Elizabeth in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Hello. Thank you for taking my call. I actually have two questions. One is yesterday you talked to Bill Thompson, and I thought that his response about CUNY as a head of trustees was rather unclear and not helpful too. I'm a retired professor from City College. What's happening? Has there been much discussion about budget for CUNY? The CUNY system is really having a lot of challenges, and I'm wondering what the legislators are saying about that. Also, was there any discussion or how much discussion was there about the New York Health Act?

Brian Lehrer: Elizabeth, thank you for both those questions. People don't realize in a lot of cases that CUNY, even though it's a City University of New York, gets most of its funding from the state, so the legislature and the governor really do control a lot of what CUNY is able to do. Anything going on, on that front that you're aware of?

Karen DeWitt: Well, the budget was done in early April, which right now, frankly, seems like 100 years ago, but the legislature increased quite a bit of spending over what Governor Cuomo did. My recollection is that CUNY and SUNY, the State University of New York, did get more money than they usually do, but they had been starved, they would say, at least for years because Governor Cuomo, for the first 10 years of being governor, kept spending.

He tried to impose a spending cap of just a 2% growth rate and because healthcare and primary and secondary education take so much of the budget that other entities like the State Agency, SUNY, CUNY would often get the short end of the stick and not really get increases that kept up with their costs of what they had to payout.

Brian Lehrer: On the New York Health [crosstalk]

Karen DeWitt: One other thing.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Karen.

Karen DeWitt: The New York Health Act, right. Well, there has been a last-minute push for that, but it doesn't look like it's going to have a rally here. The former Democratic gubernatorial candidate and actor, Cynthia Nixon, spoke at a rally outside the Capitol a couple of days ago, but that does not look like it is happening, I think, because there's just a lot of pushback from the traditional healthcare industry saying that it would be very costly, even though advocates say that isn't the case.

Brian Lehrer: I'm I thinking of the right bill that it would actually abolish all private health insurance in New York State and go to a state government-run, single-payer health insurance system?

Karen DeWitt: Right, exactly. That's it. I guess some people have concerns about the state bureaucracy running healthcare and how competent they would be. There's definitely a core advocacy for that, and certainly, most people are not really that happy with the way healthcare is going right now, so it definitely has a life, but it's not going to happen today.

Brain: It seems to me that I interviewed Democratic lawmaker after Democratic lawmaker, and I often ask them about their position on that bill, and they say, "Oh, yes, yes, that Health Act, I'm for it." Then it never passes. On the state-controlled [crosstalk]

Karen DeWitt: Yes, money. Money again.

Brian Lehrer: Money again. Money from the insurance industry probably into the lawmaker's office.

Karen DeWitt: Exactly, and the hospitals. They don't like it.

Brian Lehrer: Did I see that Cuomo just tried to sneak in a last-minute bill to take more control of the MTA?

Karen DeWitt: Yes. I'm glad that you brought that up. It was a last-minute power [inaudible 00:29:47] the governor wanted to do. He wanted to split the leadership of the MTA into two positions, which it has been in the past, and he would have direct control over one of them.

The Senate would no longer have to confirm the appointment. The Senate rejected that outright, which I think is an indication of the governor's just plummeting political capital since the beginning of this year, that they just didn't even entertain the idea of doing something, a power play that he wanted.

Brian Lehrer: Let's end on some of the drama surrounding the governor. His scandals are multiple at this point, his touching and language with women, allegedly covering up COVID nursing home deaths, using state employees to help with his book that he got paid millions for, is one or another, or another breaking out as the most serious threat to him?

Karen DeWitt: If that's contributing to that surreal feeling around here, that these scandals have been huge that most politicians would have resigned by now with all of these accusations. As we know, the governor adamantly says he's not going to resign and he hasn't done any of these things, but, yes, we have multiple women accusing him of sexual harassment, one accusation of sexual assault. He's accused of having a toxic workplace where women were forced to dress and act in certain ways. The Attorney General, Letitia James, is investigating. It seems very likely that that report will come out soon.

Nobody knows for sure. I don't think anybody has the inside edge, but I can't see her lingering much into the summer before she issues her report. What will it say that'll it's going to have huge repercussions for the governor, that's hanging over everything. We also have the federal investigations. As we know, in the past, the federal investigations, you never know what direction they're going to take, or what the feds are going to find. Governor Cuomo's former closest aide, Joe Percoco, is in jail because of a former corruption scandal that led from a federal investigation.

The feds are looking into did Cuomo and his aides cover up the true number of nursing home residents who died during the COVID pandemic, because they didn't count the ones who died in hospitals, and was there a coverup? Then there's the $5.1 million memoir that the governor wrote over the summer that some say might have been ill-advised in the middle of the pandemic. He's accused of using his staff to help him write and edit the books. That would be a violation of the state's public officer's law.

The other thing we should mention, Brian, overhanging this all, is the assembly is holding an impeachment inquiry to see if there's evidence to impeach the governor, although it has been moving extremely slowly. I think that there's a lot of unease about that too as the session ends. Is this the last day? Are they going to come back and impeach the governor? Looks less and less likely as this investigation drags on.

Brian Lehrer: You mean they may not reconvene even for the impeachment inquiry until January 2022?

Karen DeWitt: The committee that's looking into it is the assembly judiciary committee. They will continue to meet and they have provided extremely brief updates. We don't have access to them in person, it's just on Zoom. The chair of the committee, Charles Lavine, he just will say, "Well, we interviewed 50 people or whatever. We got 100 folks on the hotline and it's ongoing," and you don't really have an opportunity to figure out what's going on. I know I sound like I'm harping a lot on journalists being left out, but I do believe it's important to the public that journalists have access, and that's why I'm mentioning that so people realize that we're not able to be their representatives in the way that we normally are.

Brian Lehrer: Karen DeWitt, working through those barriers as bureau chief for New York State Public Radio in Albany, 140 miles from New York City but sometimes it seems like a world apart. Karen, thank you so much as always.

Karen DeWitt: I think it was that solar eclipse did it, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe that is it.

 

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