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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll wrap it up today with a call in about March Madness, and I do mean madness. Here's my question, is it crazy to care about how your college does at sports? 212-433-WNYC. First priority today will go to anyone connected to Princeton, some of you know why, or to schools like Ohio State where sports is central to campus culture, or to St. Francis College in Brooklyn where they just announced the end of all intercollegiate athletics. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

Why Princeton? Well, for those of you who haven't heard yet, Princeton is the big Cinderella team on the men's side of the college basketball tournament this year. If they win tonight against Creighton, they move into the coveted Elite Eight. No way has Princeton been considered one of the best eight basketball teams in America, like, "What? Those eggheads are winning high-stakes basketball games? And yet here they are in this position for the first time since 1967," Michael Hill said on the newscast earlier this hour.

Princeton students, Princeton faculty and staff, Princeton alum, are you pumped about this, or are you like, "Huh, basketball, that's interesting." What's the NCAA? Isn't that a racial justice organization? What is March Madness have to do with what Princeton or any other school is really for? Is it crazy to care about how your college does at sports? Is it really March Madness? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

Let's be real, sports has very different meaning at different kinds of schools, and I'm not even sure why, so maybe some of you can explain it to me. 212-433-9692. I did some time myself at grad school at Ohio State, and I did some time in grad school at Columbia. Coming from Queens and being a SUNY undergrad where college sport is not generally a big deal, not in Queens, not at Albany State, I was really shocked when I got to Columbus, Ohio, and discovered that the campus went absolutely off on fall Saturdays when they were football games, rallies, parades to the stadium, costumes, face paint, drinking in the streets before noon.

When I mocked it to a faculty member, I was admonished like this, "That football team funds your journalism department and don't you forget it." Okay, point taken sort of, for colleges where the sports program is presumably an economic plus, and as some of you know, I'm a sports fan, but I never went to an Ohio State football game when I was there. I thought the whole scene was gross, but I did go to some basketball games and I learned that being a student, which gave me inside access to tickets, with that, people who I knew in the community who were not connected to the school would ask me if I could get them tickets because the tickets were so in demand. I guess I could have scalped college basketball tickets because I was a grad student. It was that big a deal.

Okay, I guess that at a place like Ohio State, maybe sports equals money equals more funding for academics, and of course, sports is fun. No harm really in extracurricular activities that are fun, but you tell me fellow Buckeyes or Princeton Tigers, is it crazy to care about how your college does at sports? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Probably a lot of you listening who have no connection to Ohio State could have said, as I just did, the name of the Ohio State team, Buckeyes. Who knew, even though they're in our listening area, that the Princeton team is the Tigers? I didn't know that until yesterday, 212-433-WNYC. How about it? Princeton faculty, Princeton students, Princeton alum, call in and tell us if you're pumped about this sweet 16 round March Madness game tonight, 212-433-9692, and why you care.

What about colleges where the sports program costs money? When I was at Columbia, by contrast with when I was at Ohio State, nobody cared about sports, it didn't seem. The football team was a joke. I went to some basketball games there too, and they were never sold out and people never got too excited at the games. You could wonder, why does Columbia spend money on this, or why does Princeton? Is it crazy to care about how your Ivy League college does at sports? 212-433-WNYC.

There's one more story from this week here that relates. Did you hear that St. Francis College in Brooklyn has decided to end all intercollegiate athletics after this school year? They decided it didn't make economic sense to continue to spend money on their teams, and St. Francis is a division one school, which I didn't realize until this story broke, meaning they were in the most competitive bracket.

St. Francis people listening, if any of you are out there or St. Francis alum, is that sad for you, or do you see it as an example that other schools should maybe follow, save money on costly sports programs to use for academic? St. Francis Terriers, Ohio State Buckeyes, Princeton Tigers, anyone else call us up as March Madness peaks this weekend and next, is it madness? Is it crazy to care about how your college does at sports? Steve, a Princeton alum, yay, you're on WNYC. Hi, Steve.

Steve: Hey, how are you doing?

Brian Lehrer: Good.

Steve: Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Steve: I graduated in the '70s. I was not even aware that Princeton was doing well in basketball until I heard you mention it on the air right now.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, wow.

Steve: Sorry.

Brian Lehrer: I just said, oh, wow. Go ahead.

Steve: Oh, okay. Sports are not the reason for going to Princeton, and I played a sport in college because it was something that I loved. Back in the day, as it were, we would go to football games because the halftime show was really interesting. The Princeton University marching band used to do really topical funny satirical halftime shows, and after the university started censoring them very heavily, it was no longer interesting, and so there was no point to going even to that.

Brian Lehrer: They censored the marching band?

Steve: It's a joke, and it should be a joke.

Brian Lehrer: All right, Steve, thank you for starting us off. Here's Michael in Lake Hopatcong. You're on WNYC. Hi, Michael.

Michael: Oh, hello, Brian. Thanks for pronouncing Lake Hopatcong so well.

Brian Lehrer: You think I've never been in Jersey before? Go ahead.

Michael: I just want to say that, like I said, Rutgers University, the athletic program doesn't subsidize the academics. It's a lot of these colleges, the academic subsidize the athletic programs, and I'm quite sure Matt Katz can follow up with that. When my son was going there, it was costing $1,000 extra in tuition to subsidize the football program.

Brian Lehrer: At Rutgers. Yes, that's what I said, that I was told when I was at Ohio State that the football program subsidized academic departments like journalism, but I presume at most schools, that's not the case. I wonder about Rutgers, I don't know the current financial calculus at Rutgers. Now, they recently joined the big 10, which means they play these big-name schools like Michigan and Ohio State, and maybe that's because it's going to become an economic plus for them, I don't know. Do you have any insight as a Rutgers person?

Michael: Yes, of course, Director Hobbs said that they wouldn't possibly break even until they got the full share of the big 10 money. They're still operating at a loss, and they won't be possibly break even.

Brian Lehrer: Right. I guess part of the calculus, too, is that schools use alumni loyalty to sports teams, but I don't know if it's true at a place like Princeton or Columbia to keep alum donating money, but again, I don't know those finances. I don't know how transparent they would be even if I look them up, but that's one of the reasons that they maintain sports teams at all. Here's another Princeton alum, Pat, in New Brunswick. You're on WNYC, Pat. Did I pronounce New Brunswick, right?

Pat: Yes, you did.

Brian Lehrer: I'm just kidding. Go ahead.

Pat: Interesting that you've got Rutgers people who are close to Princeton but have always been comparing Rutgers and Princeton, interestingly. Number one, as a student at Rutgers, and watching the emphasis on testosterone-driven behavior, just all over the place, and an imbalance then in the flip side, or the perhaps the other side of the continuum of ways of doing. The theatre school didn't get the money or recognition, again.

Number two, Rutgers had a student paralyzed on the field, and I'm mostly talking about football. I could say maybe, okay, basketball is a little bit different. Not so brutal, but to watch someone have their life permanently changed by paralyzing them for a game, come on, people. Now, when you have a medical school, what's up with that? To have the contrast to what happens? Again, then in national football, we saw somebody die. What's up with that? All the credit to the players and lack of emphasis on the actual people that saved his life standing there doing that.

Brian Lehrer: There are, of course, all these other reasons like the one you're bringing up and whether college athletes are exploited to some degree. I attended one of those Intelligence Squared debates one time on the question that they actually thought serious enough to put out there. Should college football be abolished for reasons like what you bring up and other reasons of exploitation? Where Malcolm Gladwell was arguing on the, "Yes. They should abolish college football altogether aside." There you go. Pat, did I get your college wrong? I said you were a Princeton alum. Are you saying Rutgers?

Pat: No. Rutgers. That's why I commented about it. Yes. Rutgers. It's interesting, two Rutgers callers in a row.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Yes. Not that unusual in our area to get two Rutgers scholars in a row. However, Steve in Hell's Kitchen went somewhere else. Hi, Steve, you're on WNYC.

Steve: Yes. Hopefully, you can hear me, Brian. Thanks for taking the call. I'm an MIT graduate. I graduated 49 years ago. MIT has 22 NCAA championships, at last count, I think over 49 individual championships in college, not one single athletic scholarship. How come? You bring in the best students, you give them the opportunity to perform, and we don't have intercollegiate football, but we pretty much have everything else, including world-class soccer teams, which the rest of the world calls football, and you give people a great educational environment.

I'd like to point out the undergraduate population at MIT is around 4,000, as opposed to Ohio State with 40,000, 50,000. The graduate population is also around 4,000. The bottom line is, you educate the kids, you don't pay them to come to school, and maybe 10 schools make money on their athletic programs and the rest of--

Brian Lehrer: Yes. I didn't know about MIT. That's really interesting. I guess, I've never paid attention, but I'd never heard of MIT having competitive athletics.

Steve: More intercollegiate sports than any of the schools in the country with a smaller school of body. You know what? Check me out. Fact-checking. It's why I love to contribute to the school. It did great by me. I've been very successful in later life. I love your program, Brian. Thanks for doing this.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much for your call. Jonathan in Bergen County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Hey, Brian. I went to a place called St. John's College as opposed to St. John's University, and they jettison their intercollegiate sports program back in 1937. I guess, before that, they were a lacrosse powerhouse state. They were in Maryland. They adopted this unique program. It's the Great Books Program, and they decided that to be consistent with that focus on academia, they needed to get rid of intercollegiate sports. There's a robust intramural program, but they just don't do any intercollegiate sports. Honestly, I'm a huge sports fan. Always have been since before college, and I did not miss that aspect of college life.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. That's interesting. Jonathan, thank you. He says he's an alum of St. John's College, which was in Maryland, not to be confused with St. John's University, which, of course, is in Queensland. I guess that's an exception to what I said before. I say growing up in Queensland, college sports is not a big thing. In New York City, generally, it's not but St. John's is kind of an exception. I know they've been in the news recently for changing basketball coaches after a not-successful season. I guess, in fairness, we should say yes, St. John's, in Queens, a big thing in college sports locally. Gabriel in Georgia, you're on WNYC. Hi, Gabriel.

Gabriel: Hey, Brian. How are you doing?

Brian Lehrer: Good. I see you have North Country, South Country contrast for us.

Gabriel: Yes, that's true. Well, I'm from New York City, which interestingly enough, in the public school system, sports is not very pushed on kids, but a lot of kids do it outside of school, in their regular life. I went to college in Vermont, at the University of Vermont, where they don't really have that much sports up there either, and it wasn't much of an issue. Now, I live in a place where college sports is life. This is people's entire personalities based on the University of Georgia football. It's kind of an issue. I don't think it's that cool, personally, to live in a totally different other city and identify with this college from another place, but it seems to me like a social expression of people's need to have an allegory for militarism. I agree with the previous caller who was talking about-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: In that it's just more prevalent to have that need, do you think, in Georgia than it was in Vermont when you lived there?

Gabriel: I think there's a whole history tied up, but college football is definitely tied up in alumni. Alumni matters no matter where you go. In Vermont, we didn't have a football team but instead do encourage alumni visitation and donating. Once a year, they actually had a Blackface competition.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, boy. Well, we're going to leave it there on that disturbing note. Anyway, to the extent that it's fun, go Princeton tonight against Creighton. Let's see if they make it to the Elite Eight for the first time since the 1960s.

The Brian Lehrer Show is produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily politics podcast. Juliana Fonda at the audio controls. Have a great weekend.

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