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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC and as you've probably been hearing, New York State lawmakers and Governor Cuomo reportedly struck a deal yesterday to begin the process of legalizing recreational cannabis for adult use in New York State. Proponents contend that opening the state up to legal weed will create an industry that'll generate tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in tax revenue for the state. Yesterday's agreement specifically addresses the punishing toll that the uneven enforcement of low-level marijuana offenses in the state has had on poor Black and brown communities. It includes a provision to reinvest millions in tax revenue generated from cannabis sales into these communities and the state plans to set aside a portion of business licenses for people of color and women. These plans have generally not produced the intended equity results in other legal weed states so can New York do better? What are the terms of the agreement? Why now and when will you be able to walk into a store and buy some? With me now on these questions and more is Alyson Martin, co-founder of Cannabis Wire, a news organization covering the cannabis industry nationally and globally. She's been described as the queen of the weed beat and she's monitoring the legislative proceedings in Albany very closely. Hi, Alyson welcome back to WNYC.

Alyson Martin: Hey Brian, thanks for having me I always love coming back.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start with that basic last question first. If this does pass next week, when can people walk into a store, or I guess they'll be called dispensaries, and buy marijuana products legally?

Alyson Martin: I don't have a crystal ball like anyone else, but I would say ballpark at least a year, maybe two years. It takes time to get the market up and running.

Brian Lehrer: What takes that much time?

Alyson Martin: Rulemaking, of course. That's really the sausage maker. After a bill's passed then a lot of heads get into the room and figure out the nitty-gritty details.

Brian Lehrer: Will there be any restrictions as you understand the emerging bill on what kinds of products will be able to be sold? Like there are sometimes debates about marijuana-infused gummies because they could be attractive to children and things like that.

Alyson Martin: Yes, of course. That's really interesting. I actually don't have the language of the bill in front of me. Like a lot of reporters, I'm hitting refresh every two seconds and waiting for press availabilities, but by and large, there are market trends emerging in these 15 states in DC that have already legalized for adult use. Most states prohibit any kind of packaging or labeling or products that are particularly appealing to children like gummy bears or those sorts of things, so I think we can expect New York to follow suit with a lot of those kinds of rules. You're not going to see Captain Crunch with cannabis on it or something like that I don't think.

Brian Lehrer: Could legal weed in New York really create tens of thousands of jobs or is that just an ambitious claim?

Alyson Martin: Yes, that's a good question. I actually think it will create tens of thousands of jobs but, again, it's not going to be a light switch. It's not going to be the second after the bill passes, we're going to see job fairs with these tens of thousands of jobs. It's going to be that slow ramp up and I think that's for a lot of reasons. Like I said, the rule-making process takes time but also the policy has to be written in so many ways where, for example, perhaps law enforcement needs to train more drug recognition experts to spot impaired driving. You might have localities who want to figure out whether they want to allow sales regarding opt-in and opt-out and those sorts of things. These have been all part of those closed-door negotiations during this time period which, as we all know, is pretty much you know the third time around, perhaps third time's a charm. It is looking better this year than in past years when I came on your show, but you know it's all been-- and we never know until the very end.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned one of the things that turns out to be a last-minute sticking point from the reporting that I've seen which is what to do about marijuana-impaired driving and what police officers are allowed to do when they stop people. What do they do in the other legal weed states because there's no actual equivalent to a breathalyzer for alcohol?

Alyson Martin: Exactly. This is such a thorny policy area. In all states where lawmakers and governors are discussing legalization because as you just pointed out, we don't really have an industry standard for cannabis impairment like we do BAC, 0.08 for alcohol. Cannabis also behaves differently in everyone's body. Brian, if you smoked a joint, if I smoked a joint it may very well show up differently in a test. A lot of that has to do with whether somebody is a regular consumer, their height, their weight those sorts of things. The type of product that's consumed, the concentration of THC. There are some jurisdictions. Washington State for example had a per se limit. Recent scientific literature has showed that that's not foolproof or fail proved. Many-

Brian Lehrer: What is that per se limit? What does that mean?

Alyson Martin: -on DREs or what-- are otherwise known as Drug Recognition Experts which are specially trained law enforcement to spot cannabis impairment. Of course, that brings into question subjectivity. It's relying on the law enforcement officer's discretion on whether somebody's truly impaired. There are issues around whether somebody can be stopped simply for "Smell" that's again subjectivity. It's been very interesting to me that based on my most recent reporting it does seem that that impaired driving bit is the final sticking point. If I were reading that crystal ball that I referenced, I would very much assume that the final language of the legislation will allocate probably extra money to law enforcement departments for that extra training.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls with your questions about the legalization of recreational cannabis expected to be passed any day by the New York State Legislature and signed into law by Governor Cuomo. 646-435-7280 for Alyson Martin from Cannabis Wire a news organization covering the cannabis industry. 646-435-7280 or you can tweet a question at Brian Lehrer. Weed, as we know, is an equity issue on many levels and this agreement, from what I've read, is being established with the goal to reinvest a portion of the profits generated into communities who've been disparately affected by the war on drugs. What's your best information about how that will look in practice and do you agree with the assessment that I gave at the beginning which is based on coverage that I've seen? That though things like this have been written into laws in the other legal weed states, they have rarely resulted in people of color owning cannabis facilities?

Alyson Martin: Yes, on your last bit I do agree with you. I think there are a couple of states. The way that I look at it, the states that have legalized most recently are the ones that are probably implementing or doing equity or implementing equity provisions better than other states. Illinois, Massachusetts. Yes, I have a different take than a lot of people might. I actually think that equity in cannabis legalization or in the cannabis industry would probably be more successful if there was an equity ramp up before the legalization bill actually passed or voter initiative meaning could we get out ahead of it to educate, to offer that technical application training, job training all of that. I think part of what happens is that there's a little bit of a clip where the legalization bill passes and then, bam, there's a bomb rush for applications and those sorts of things. I think that that's the point and this is just my opinion based on my reporting. I think that's a point where a lot of people fall off as far as equity applicants. I also think a major, major barrier to actually implementing equity is that simple access to banking services. There is, of course, a bill that's making national headlines right now called the SAFE Banking Act which would open up banking services to the cannabis industry as we all know. Cannabis remains federally illegal despite states implementing cannabis legalization laws and medical cannabis but basically what that means is banks are afraid to work with people because of their FDIC coverage. SAFE Banking I think would actually go a long way toward opening up opportunities for equity applicants. I think it's very important to note though that the SAFE Banking Act itself does not actually weave in traditional equity provisions. To the first part of your question because I'm meandering a little bit, yes cannabis is definitely an equity issue as written with the caveat that I haven't actually seen the language yet. I'm hitting refresh and emailing my sources, not on the call, of course, but it would create a social equity fund that would go toward things like community-based non-profits that are working on things like job placement and housing and services to address how communities of color have been disproportionately affected by the enforcement of cannabis laws. It's quite a mouthful but yes. Cannabis is very, very much an equity issue.

Brian Lehrer: Roy in Fort Lee has an equity question I think. Hi Roy you're on WNYC.

Roy: Yes, it is an equity question. First of all, with the legalization of marijuana, we should be immediately releasing the people who are in jail for the use and distribution of marijuana, which is disproportionately African American. There's not a lot of talk about it. Unfortunately, we use the boogeyman voices, and too often, this is so clearly racism that this is a forefront on the agenda. The other thing is to displace people from disenfranchised underground economy. Are we going to try and transfer them into this new budding economy. I am 100% in favor of legalization. I'm very disturbed by the undertow of racism involved with rolling it out.

Brian Lehrer: Roy, thank you very much so he's really got two specific questions there. One is about expunging the records of people who've previously been convicted and releasing people who may be in for marijuana-related crimes right now and second, he's basically, asking if current drug dealers, because they have experience in the business will be given a leg in.

Alyson Martin: I'll tackle the second part first. That's really interesting. I think the tension between bringing current illicit operators, "into the light or above board", it's a tension that I think regulators face, that's something that [unintelligible 00:11:16] going to have to deal with after the bill passes, but California said a lot of work on that. I think it comes down to education. I think that's also an equity issue. In some jurisdictions, people who have specific crimes on their record can't actually enter the industry.

I think the more recent jurisdictions that are passing, legalization, understand that it's important to educate and try to bring some of those people as lawmakers and regulators say sometimes, "into the light." The first part, my understanding of the latest version that's being negotiated involves the automatic expungement of cannabis crimes that would be considered legal under the passage of whatever version is going into effect.

When you talk about people who are incarcerated for cannabis crimes, that gets a little tricky and into a little bit of a gray area because there are people serving in prison for cannabis crimes often today, those are for moving substantial amounts of product, which wouldn't be considered legal under the whatever version of the bill is passed and also sometimes other crimes are associate or woven in with it whether there's a gun charge or something like that. It does fall into a little bit of a gray area there, but just getting back to that first part, automatic expungement, I believe would be part of it.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue with Alyson Martin and more on New York's emerging legal marijuana bill, right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with Alyson Martin from Cannabis Wire, a news organization covering the cannabis industry and the laws around it. Here's another kind of equity question, a different kind than we've tackled so far, I think, from Julian in Westchester. Julian, you're on WNYC, hi there.

Julian: Hi Brian, good to be on. First time a long time. Thanks. My question is, it's actually been my dream to cultivate cannabis for a while now. I spent some time in California working there, but I had always dreamed to bring it back to New York once it was legalized here, but my biggest fear is how do we keep big business out of cannabis and prevent it from becoming like a big tobacco.

Brian Lehrer: You're talking about agriculture in particular in this question?

Julian: Yes, the cultivation of the plant.

Brian Lehrer: Alyson, this is something that people probably haven't thought about very much, unless they're farmers. They probably think about the dispensaries and whether there'll be able to go in and buy at a certain time or the driving safety and criminal justice, but people downstate anyway, rarely think about where's this going to be grown? Do we have the right climate in New York state because all marijuana in legal States has to be grown within that state, right?

Alyson Martin: Yes, it does. I actually do think about this a lot. I'm also from the Albany area where there are plenty of Apple orchards, so I maybe think a little bit differently than my current New York city self, but I think that's a really great question. I think two things, one the good news or sunny side up, if you're interested in growing, is that the latest version that my source has told me about very recently is that medical cannabis patients would be able to cultivate at home six plants, six months after the effective date of the bill and adult-use consumers would be able to home cultivates six plants, 18 months after the effective date of the bill.

Again, I don't have it in front of me. There's a caveat that there are probably all kinds of negotiations happening right now, but that's the latest that I was told. Regarding big business, I think that's such a smart and important question and it's something that I think about a lot. Cannabis Wire broke a pretty big story that Altria, the maker of Marlboro cigarettes, is interested in cannabis sales in Virginia, they registered to lobby on cannabis sales in Virginia, another recent legalization state.

When you think about the direction that things are headed, I think this is why so many advocates and lawmakers and policymakers are so laser-focused on protecting how the industry is launched, because you also have "big alcohol" involved in the cannabis industry at this point as well. I think that there's going to be a little bit of a tension there between the traditional cannabis industry as we know it and these big gigantic market forces that are frankly set up with supply chains and all of that. Brian, you brought up another interesting point about-- Cannabis does need to be cultivated within state borders in each state.

I personally don't think that's going to be the case forever. I think once some kind of federal legislation passes, I think you're going to see States that really excel in different types of cultivation to really be the emphasis or the "epicenter," of those kinds of cultivations or cultivation centers. I don't know that you're going to see upstate New York like Plattsburgh being the cannabis cultivation center of the United States. It might be California, of course, Northern California those sorts of areas.

Brian Lehrer: Catherine, Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Catherine.

Catherine: Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. Of course, this update is a really exciting one for those of us who support this legislation in New York state. Thrilling, but I have to ask the reporter, what her thoughts are on the timing of all of this, which is too early, given that our governor is of course the subject of multiple investigations. It seems a little suspect. I'm curious to know your thoughts.

Alyson Martin: I was waiting for that question actually. Obviously, some sources have told me perhaps the governor needs or wants "a win" right now. Cannabis is popular. The latest polls show that New Yorkers want legalization, that's the national trend as well. It's interesting. Years ago, I think even as late as 2017, the governor called cannabis, "A gateway drug" and he previously thought that the risks outweigh the benefits of legalization. He started turning that cruise ship very slowly in 2018, I think he might've been pushed to the left by Cynthia Nixon during that race but yes, I've heard sources say that it's very opportune timing for the governor to have "win."

Brian Lehrer: I've read, but I don't know what the details are, that because of his current political weakness, he may have agreed to compromises on the legal marijuana legislation that he wasn't agreeing to before, but I don't know what those would be. Do you happen to know?

Alyson Martin: The major sticking points in the past-- What I will say from my perspective covering this in New York and nationally for years again, third time that the powers that be are putting their heads together, Senator Liz Krueger, assembly majority leader, Crystal Peoples-Stokes, long-time legalization supporters who've been pushing for a very specific type of legalization for years, equity-focused, criminal-justice focus. One of their sticking points for the past couple of years and this year as well, specifically earmarks for equity provisions. In years past, Governor Cuomo has wanted cannabis tax revenue to go into the general fund.

That's been a pretty big point of contention during those negotiations and I would argue that the biggest hurdle for legalization in the past was actually time. They just didn't get it done and they didn't agree on those details by the time the various deadlines where their budget or legislative came to pass. This year, I think they're starting at a later point because they've had a lot of those discussions, which is why I think the conversation is as mature as it is at this point. I do wonder myself whether some of those, I don't want to say concessions, but I will say compromises have come at this time because Governor Cuomo has had a lot on his plate that has nothing to do with cannabis.

Brian Lehrer: We have a minute left and then listeners will ask the mayor segment is coming up next. In a minute, we'll start to open up the phones for your questions for Mayor de Blasio. Question from a listener on Twitter, will New York actually pass marijuana legislation that includes consumption lounges. We've seen this reported.

Alyson Martin: Yes, I believe so. Again, with that asterisk that I don't have the legislation in front of me, but I do believe that there will be legal consumption spaces. Some people call them consumption lounges. I personally think that's a really important aspect of the legislation and of the policy because I'm calling in from my New York City apartment which I do not own and anybody who rents could very well be held to their landlord or building owner's policy on this. If you think about people who live in public housing, for as long as cannabis remains federally illegal, cannabis or even medical cannabis can't be on those properties. Consumption lounges are, in my opinion, also an equity provision and it opens up opportunities for people who live in high rises and whose co-op boards or landlords refuse to allow any cannabis on the premises.

Brian Lehrer: They would need to be an exception to the no-smoking in restaurants laws like cigar stores have.

Alyson Martin: It's really interesting actually the form that it could take. It could actually be consumption spaces that are "no smoke." It could be vaporized cannabis. You could also see in a place like New York City or upstate, little corralled areas like beer gardens at various festivals and things like that. I could see short-term permits being a thing and also longer-term. How it plays in with the clean indoor rules remains to be seen. Of course, in some areas when jurisdictions and policymakers start talking about consumption spaces and lounges, one of the first things that comes up is what do we do about the actual smoke? What's that going to mean for ventilation? What's that gonna mean for mixed-use spaces and those sorts of things.

Brian Lehrer: Alyson Martin, co-founder of Cannabis Wire, a news organization covering the cannabis industry nationally and locally. Obviously, as well-informed as she's been this last half-hour, in New York state. Thank you very much for explaining what seems to be emerging from Albany this week. Thanks so much.

Alyson Martin: Always a pleasure. Thanks so much.

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