Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we'll wrap up today's show with what we might call a little bit of fun. We want to hear your best gossip, the piping hot tea, the stories that usually come out when you are two mimosas into brunch with your closest friends. Listeners, have you overheard any hot gossip lately? Or maybe you heard a piece of gossip that changed how you interact with someone close to you, or how you move through certain settings?

Now's your chance to share a juicy tale from your personal life. Although, please keep all parties involved anonymous. We don't want to send mobs after the subjects of your stories. Call or text us at 212-433-WNYC. Now, why do I ask? Well, there's a trend on TikTok that's gaining a new wave of attention. People have been posting videos of gossip that they've overheard, not stories that they have from their own lives necessarily, but bits and pieces of conversations from the table next to them at brunch, that kind of thing.

Actually, that's more the thing we're asking for. Have you come across these? If not, here's a snippet from TikTok user, Kelsey Kotzur, who shared this with her 168,000 followers last month.

Kelsey Kotzur: I just got back to my hotel. I was just at brunch, and I have to tell you this story. We're sitting next to a table full of three girls, and they were all talking about how they were in their friend's wedding a few weeks ago. At first, it was tame gossip, talking about how they didn't like the cut of their dresses or the color of their dresses, but then it got sinister very quickly.

The main girl, the blonde, she was the ringleader of this dynamic, and she was talking about how she felt so ugly on her day, and it was so unfair that the day of her friend's wedding that she was in was all about her, the bride, and not about the bridesmaids.

Then, this other girl in this dynamic chips in about how the flowers that every girl had to hold were so ugly that she could have gone into the backyard of any house to any forest, plucked out some flowers, and made a prettier bouquet.

Then, the other girl chimes in and is talking about how the way that the bride spent money was really unacceptable to her. Say how they had a rosé toast instead of a champagne toast and maybe if she spent her money more wisely, she'd be able to afford champagne versus rosé.

When I tell you, if I were that friend and I knew that these girls were talking about me like this, I would throw myself into traffic. Anyway, if you just got married and your color scheme was blush and you have two blonde friends with short bobs and you have a brunette friend, don't be friends with them anymore.

Brian Lehrer: Pretty harsh. No? This video struck a nerve. It reached 2.5 million views and has nearly 4,500 comments with many people expressing sympathy for the bride, recalling painful memories of similar situations they were in, surrounding their own weddings, as well as some just asking the speaker where she purchased her jewelry and her top. She normally creates fashion content after all. It has also sparked a broader conversation, which is why we're doing this.

When does gossip on TikTok go too far? Do we have the right to tell other people's stories to audiences of millions? Are we creating a surveillance state in which not even brunch is sacred? CT Jones Cultural Writer at Rolling Stone investigated these questions and more, and they joined us now with their takeaways. CT, welcome to WNYC. Do we have CT?

CT Jones: Yes. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: There you go. Now, we can hear you. Sorry.

CT Jones: No problem.

Brian Lehrer: We shared this particular gossip video because, A, it's safe for radio, unlike some, and, B, its reach has definitely made it part of the public conversation. Your piece dives into another TikTok. Want to give us the PG version of the video you focus on in your article?

CT Jones: Absolutely. My article focused on another TikTok where a woman overheard a group or a table at brunch where they were talking about their friend. They didn't like how she dressed. They didn't like how she drank. They didn't like how she went out. Rather than Kelsey's video, which just relays the information when Kelsey got back to the hotel room, this influencer took it a step further and actually physically filmed the women who were talking, got in close, and spoke to them as well, which makes it a little bit different.

Brian Lehrer: What kind of gossip are we likely to come across on TikTok? Is it usually this juicy, or can it be mundane as well?

CT Jones: I think the interesting thing about TikTok is that it really incentivizes reach. You will obviously see some juicy gossip like this, but it can also be minor. For instance, a couple of weeks ago, a video went viral of a woman who had seen a small hit and run where an Audi was damaged, and she sent out a request saying she called the man, 'Audi Daddy' and said, "If your car got hit and you don't know who did it, I have this person's license plate. Here's my number, call me." It's innocuous things like that that can also spread, but obviously, the algorithm will reward the juicier drama.

Brian Lehrer: There's an underlying issue here, which is another reason we were drawn to talk about this at all because people might be thinking, "Why are you talking about gossip on TikTok?" It's that not all gossip is bad. You note in your article that gossip is often used in social settings to establish group behaviors. What do you mean by this? Are some kinds of gossip useful as you see it, and other kinds of are destructive? Or maybe those destructive things should be called by another word?

CT Jones: I think when we're talking about gossip, the better way to do it is we speak about communication. While gossip can often be seen as something nebulous, a lot of times it can be used as a whisper network. It can be used as a warning. In friend groups, even something that could seem harmful can also be used to check in with one another, to vent about something, or to take the temperature of the room.

For instance, if you were worried about a friend's drinking and you brought it up without that friend being there, while it would technically be considered gossip, what it could be doing is establishing a group consensus about something before making the next step.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. I think Josh in Mahwah has a story. Josh, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Josh: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I think this is pretty old-fashioned gossip. I was sitting alone at lunch and at the next table were a group of three or four friends, and one was showing off the ring that the guy she had been seeing just gave her and another woman at the table goes, "Oh, gee, that looks just like the ring my husband gave me a little while ago." As the conversation went on, sure enough, it was the same ring. There you go.

Brian Lehrer: Put it on TikTok, make it sound really dramatic, and maybe it'll get 2.5 million views.

Josh: Well, not my style, but this is as public as I've ever gone with it [unintelligible 00:07:29].

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. CJ, you spoke with Kelsey McKinney, who's no stranger to gossip as she hosts the podcast Normal Gossip, but even she takes issue with these kinds of TikToks comparing them to policing. How do these seemingly lighthearted videos turn from regular gossip into what might be called policing in obviously a negative sense?

CT Jones: One of the most interesting things about establishing what a gossip TikTok's aim is, is when there's a call to action at the end. When I spoke to Kelsey McKinney, one of the things she pointed out is that the goal is to find the women that these people are talking about. A lot of times people they will post videos and say, "Help me find this girl."

Right now, it's a little sinister, but in 2020, it actually created a new influencer on TikTok named Marissa Meiz, who went viral after a pedestrian overheard her friends gossiping about purposefully planning a birthday party while she was out of town. The video got over 14 million views, but it was praised on TikTok and inspired Marissa to create her own social club that helped people meet new friends.

One of the interesting things is that specific call to action. It's not just, "I want to share this drama with you, my TikTok audience." It's, "I think that this is wrong. These people deserve to be punished. Help me find them."

Brian Lehrer: What is it that morally separates gossip among friends or colleagues from the kind of gossip we encounter on TikTok?

CT Jones: I'm not sure there's much of a difference, but I do think the reach is where it starts to get a little bit crazy. If you're going to gossip with your colleague about someone you're not sure of, or someone you maybe feel uncomfortable being in close quarters with or going out to drinks with, the only person that that could potentially reach is maybe your circle, that colleague circle, your work circle.

When we're talking about the internet, videos have a massive reach and the potential to affect things as large as employment, housing. While you might be sharing a helpful piece of information with one of your coworkers, I think it would be morally dubious for that coworker then to go on TikTok and say, "Guess what I heard about this person's name?" and then imply that they were doing something illegal or egregious.

Brian Lehrer: John, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi John.

John: Oh, hi. John here. I have nothing to share about- I don't really gossip all that much and don't listen to other people too much, but it just makes me think of the Seinfeld episode when the reporter from NYU overhears the table Jerry, Elaine, and George talking the fake story about them being gay and their reports that- and that was such different times, but it had such an effect on their lives, especially George's mother. Anyway, just funny, but I can't imagine how significant more harmful it would be today, such a thing happened. Anyway [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: It's a good thing to reference. John, thank you. I don't know that story or that episode, but that would've been the 1990s, CJ, but it's that kind of thing. Imagine, I guess, or this is the world that we're living in now, is that that kind of thing gets overheard and then somebody throws it up on TikTok

CT Jones: Yes, absolutely. One of the things the article notes as, and this isn't just about gossip TikToks, but then more and more we see how content comes into real lives, we are creating the surveillance state where if I saw that gossip TikTok, the next time that I went out and had lunch with a friend, I would probably be less likely to share what I would consider personal information or gossip for fear that, oh, the person next to me eating pancakes has 2.3 million followers and is going to relay this when they get home.

Another thing is that when we're talking about overheard gossip, odds are you're missing key context, important context. When you apply that gossip and then ask your followers to create a moral judgment and then deal that judgment out, you're getting into insane territory where the only thing that happens is harm.

Brian Lehrer: Which I guess is what happened in that Seinfeld episode because there was a misunderstanding of what the people at the table were actually saying. It lacked the context that you were just referring to. This gets serious when it's in real life. What kinds of questions should people ask themselves before broadcasting overheard gossip in order to avoid these ethical issues?

CT Jones: I think the easiest way to avoid an ethical issue is perhaps just to not post gossip that's not your own. If you are going to post gossip, the next question, which Kelsey McKinney also pointed out is, do I have the right to tell this story? Who is going to be harmed? What's my goal? Because I promise you, if you're trying to make a fun TikTok, there are probably easier ways. If your end result is to say, I think these people need to be punished, then I think you have a moral quandary on your hands and you probably won't come out of the situation as the winner.

Brian Lehrer: Has a gossip video ever led to something good, or is this trend just a net negative for society?

CT Jones: I wouldn't call the trend a net negative. While I can't provide specific examples of gossip videos leading to something good, there are plenty of examples of how the algorithm will boost searches. For instance, there was a viral video, I think last year, of a girl who's had photos and said, when I was on a cruise when I was 11, I spent three weeks with this little girl who is my best friend, please, please help me find her. It uses the same tools as gossip TikToks. People are sharing, people are liking, people are commenting, they're bookmarking, all of which pushes the video further and more and more onto people's for you pages. The end result of that was two long-lost childhood friends reconnecting.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a comment from a listener by a text message. It says, "I think your guest is missing the cathartic point of gossip, which is, if I talk about you behind my back and I get it off my chest and I don't say it to you in-person or act on it, if we start reporting gossip, then it escalates it beyond its original intention." That actually, I think, was a fairly good little text about where the dividing line is, that there is a cathartic point of gossip. If it's your gossip, maybe you get it off your chest and don't act on it in some negative way, different than if we start reporting it.

CT Jones: Absolutely. In my article, I also speak to psychologist, Francis McAndrew, who talks about how a lot of times, gossip can simply feel good. He says we like gossip for the same reason that we like donuts. In Kelsey Cotter's video, one of the interesting things is that sometimes gossiping about how a friend spends money might be a good way to make sure that you don't bring it up and it becomes another fight. I think that comment is perfectly accurate. Gossip is fun. I just think when we're talking about expanding the reach, we should just be careful about- so that we don't cause any unintended harm.

Also as TikTok trends continue, I think it's more and more important that we consider what privacy rights we're taking away in the process.

[MUSIC -- Soulive: Solid]

Brian Lehrer: CT Jones, culture writer at Rolling Stone, thank you so much for joining us.

CT Jones: Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Stay tuned for All Of It.

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