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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. For the Museum of Chinese in America in Lower Manhattan, the pandemic would have been hard enough, but then shortly after COVID upended life for everyone, a fire ripped through the museum's archive and destroyed about 5% of its permanent collection. These last few years have been hard for the museum in other ways too. MOCA became the unlikely site of protests over the City's plan to build jails in four of the five boroughs, including one in Chinatown to close Rikers Island. The specific issue was a $35 million award from the City, proposed back in 2019 as part of a community give back as they called it.

New York Magazine's Curbed reported the City calls the money it gave the museum a community investment, one of many given out in an attempt to make an unpopular plan more palatable. Now, the museum has named a new leader, non-profit executive, Michael Lee. We will ask him about what's next for MOCA and what the museum has to do with the City's borough-based jail program. Michael Lee, incoming president of the Museum of Chinese in America, joins me now. Michael, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Michael Lee: Oh, thanks so much. This is an incredible honor. I grew up in New York City. I've been listening to you for 20 years. My high school classmate calls you her radio boyfriend. She knows you.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, oh.

Michael Lee: Though, a bunch of people are really thrilled I'm on.

Brian Lehrer: Somebody is going to get jealous. Michael, by way of introduction and thank you for those very nice words, I want to get your background. First, tell a lot of listeners who really have no idea about Museum of Chinese in America, what its mission is and what it does.

Michael Lee: The mission of the Museum of Chinese in America is really four things, is one, to preserve our history, make sure that we have a home for all of our cultural artifacts of Chinese in America. Two, to promote our culture, to let people learn about some of the things that we do, why we do them. Three, to tell our stories because we're the ones that are really focused on wanting people to know about our stories.

Then four, really celebrating our accomplishments and showing people what we have done in this country. We do all these things is because we want people to see the contributions that Chinese have America made in this country and why we're better for it. Also, we want people to develop a cultural sensitivity, so that they respect people from all different cultures and all different backgrounds. That's why we do what we do.

Brian Lehrer: Give the exact address for people who may not hear it when we give it at the end in case they want to just go and see this museum that maybe they've never seen before.

Michael Lee: Sure. The address is on Centre Street. It's about two blocks north of Canal Street. You just get off the Canal Street station, walk two blocks up Centre, and it's right there.

Brian Lehrer: Now, introduce yourself a little bit more. What's your professional background? What made you want to lead the Museum of Chinese in America?

Michael Lee: I guess you've got to break it down personally and professionally. Personally, I was born in New York City. My family was in Chinatown. My father's side was in Chinatown. My mother's side grew up in Jamaica, Queens. I'm third-generation Chinese American. Everybody has a different definition for generations, but my definition is my parents were both born here. My grandparents were the one that immigrated here. For my entire life when I was growing up as a kid, my daycare was 78 Mulberry Street above the KK Discount Store right there. Unfortunately, that building caught a fire recently.

That building was about four buildings down from the original MOCA collections place, which was at 70 Mulberry Street. I grew up there. I grew up there during my early years in my grandfather's apartment. Then once I went to elementary school, it was my after school. Every Friday, we would have family dinner there. Chinatown has a very deep place in my heart. At the same time, I was going to school in Brooklyn. My school didn't have as many Chinese students there. I always felt a little bit out of place in both places. One, I'd go to Chinatown all the time, and being third-generation, my parents didn't really teach me Chinese very well.

I had sometimes a hard time fitting in there. Then I would go to school where-- My school was wonderful, very supportive, but at the end of the day, you always feel a little bit different because you look different. It really built a deep intense curiosity in me to learn about Chinese culture, learn the Chinese language. I got to learn Chinese language at school, thanks to [unintelligible 00:04:42]. She taught me Mandarin for several years. Then on the side, I was always taking martial arts. I was part of a kung fu and lion dance troop, Norman Chin's Southern Praying Mantis Lion Dance Team ever since I was 14 then.

Still I'm parading around Chinatown to this day. That led to my college years, where I took East Asian studies, I took Asian American studies. I was very active in the Asian American community. It's just driven me throughout my entire life. Professionally, after my first big job in college, I got really lucky. I started working at the Committee of 100, which is a non-profit dedicated to US-China relations and making sure Chinese Americans can fully participate in the US. It was a membership organization of very prominent Chinese Americans. I got to meet all these people that I only read about in textbooks and seen on TV. It was a wonderful job.

I got to learn all about the non-profit industry there. While I worked there, I also went to NYU for fundraising and philanthropy school, which taught me about how places like WNYC, and the Mets, and Lincoln Center, how they came to be and how they all been established. I got to learn everything about the non-profit industry from the head of fundraising at NYU, Naomi Levine, who helped put a lot of the buildings that we see down there in the neighborhood today. I just walked by them.

Brian Lehrer: I can see from all of that how this is such a meaningful job for you to now be director of the museum. That is just awesome that you've landed in a job where obviously there's such a personal connection and that you feel so strongly about doing right by. Now, I'm going to get into the big controversy about the jail. By way of background for our listeners, in March 2021, the artist collective Godzilla withdrew from a planned retrospective at the Museum of Chinese in America, citing what it called the museum's complicity in the City's plan to build a new jail in Chinatown.

A letter signed by 19 members read, "The complicity of MOCA's leadership with the jail plan amounts to supporting the system of mass incarceration and policing that disproportionately affect Black and brown lives." It continues, "We Godzilla signatories are deeply disappointed that MOCA has not lived up to its reputation and responsibility as a trusted community anchor and national treasure.

We had fervently hoped the museum's leaders might summon the will and courage to join with the Chinatown community with those whose lives are most directly affected by the entire New York City jail plan and with those who for decades help build and shape the museum's mission." Michael, what is MOCA's position on the City's proposal to build a jail in Chinatown today five years after that letter?

Michael Lee: I read that letter on Facebook when it came out as well.

Brian Lehrer: Three years after that letter, I apologize. Go ahead.

Michael Lee: I apologize, three years after that letter. Outside looking in, I completely sympathize with what a lot of people feel. As someone that's taking over a cultural institution that's two blocks away from where the jail is being built, we're completely against it as well. It's very disruptive for the neighborhood. It's going to be very tough in terms of construction and in terms of foot traffic. It's just basically very disruptive for the people there.

There's still 20,000 residents living around the Chinatown area. It's a neighborhood and a residential neighborhood as well. To have a jail, I believe it's 40 stories, I don't remember the exact count, but it's going to be disruptive for the entire community without a doubt. Yes, we're against it being built.

Brian Lehrer: Did something change because that artist collective was accusing the museum's leadership of complicity?

Michael Lee: The reason why MOCA took the grant and the reason why it wanted to take the grant was because in 2015, even before the talks of the jail came, MOCA's lease was about to be up in five years around 2020. There was a real possibility that the building that MOCA was in, it was renting at the time, would either it would close, or MOCA would have to move, or MOCA would just have to shut down, period. It was during that time that the leadership at MOCA and the trustees decided we're going to start applying to the City for funding. They started talking to the owner of the building and seeing if it was a possibility to buy the building.

That was really what created the need, and that's why MOCA was interested in purchasing the building in the first place. As we get closer to 2020, and we're talking with the owner, and the owner is thinking about selling the building, he's actually showing the building around to investors, to private equity investors, and they are interested in turning the building either into luxury condos or high-end commercial. When this investment came from the City to enable MOCA to buy the building, the choice for MOCA was, do we take investment and keep this building in the community because we believe there should be a museum for the Chinese community that is telling our stories that will be dedicated to it permanently, or do we let it get sold and then possibly have the museum close? It being part of our mission, us wanting a permanent home that is going to be dedicated to telling the stories of the Chinese community, it really is not a decision that we can make. We took the grant and we want to make sure that we have a permanent home.

Brian Lehrer: A $35 million grant as part of a concession to communities impacted by new jails. Just to be clear, was accepting this award contingent on public support by you for a new jail in Chinatown?

Michael Lee: Absolutely not. There was no deal that people want to say there's a deal, there was some bargain. There was absolutely no concessions whatsoever. MOCA had no leverage on whether the jail could be built. It had no land anywhere near the jail. It didn't even own anything. It had no leverage to ever stop building the jail. Then two, there's nothing ever in the agreement that ever says, "Oh, we have to support the building of the jail," or, "We have to ask the community to stop protesting the jail, or to have any sort of messaging in the community."

With all that, there's a narrative out there that we somehow, I guess, "sold out" the community or traded something, but absolutely not. It was a unmet need in the community that was there for the Chinatown community, and that when they were making community investments surrounding the jail, this was one of those that were surrounding the area. There's absolutely no deal that was ever made.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we have time for a few calls for Michael Lee, incoming president of the Museum of Chinese in America on Centre Street around Canal Street. It can be about the controversy surrounding the jail plan if you want to call about that. Also, we can take phone calls from people who just visited the museum and who want to say what you love about it, or your own aspirations for the museum, or perhaps what you've learned as a Chinese American or as anybody else from visiting the museum.

212-433-WNYC, or any question that you want to ask its new leader, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. I want to mention, Michael, one of the other challenges that I see MOCA has faced in the last few years, the museum's archive on Mulberry Street. What was the damage there? What happened? How is the recovery going?

Michael Lee: We're really fortunate. When the fire happened, there was a number of community leaders in Chinatown that went in there. I heard some of them donned hazmat suits and went in and made sure they got the collection out there. That collection of people included, artists, included community leaders. I want to shout-out to all of them for going in there and saving what we all believe are the treasures in Chinatown. We've moved the collection over to a temporary space right now, but with the purchase of the building, we'll be able to move.

This is the number one priority for us in terms of making adjustments to the building, is we're going to bring the collections into the building that we own now. The collections, and our exhibits, and our classroom spaces will all be in one space. Now, people can come to MOCA. They can not only see all of our exhibits and learn about the history, but also visit our collections unit, and talk to our great team there, and see some of the artifacts that we may have on file.

Brian Lehrer: That is great. What's on at MOCA this spring? Any particular exhibits you want people to know about?

Michael Lee: Right now we have our permanent collection that will take you through the immigration of Chinese in America, all the way from the 1800s to modern day, and showing you how the geopolitical forces in America, as well as the world, affected the Chinese immigration. We also have the Five Senses of the Chinatown, which is art collection of local children and high school students creating art on what they feel is meaningful to them in Chinatown. It's funny, the curator told me that he put out the call to a lot of the students and then he got a lot of images of bubble tea.

I guess bubble tea and milk teas are very popular in the Chinatown area, but really there's some wonderful art that comes out of it. It's really beautiful. There's signs from the original 69 Bayard Street restaurant where I used to grow up eating late night and dollar bills that used to be on the walls for those that remember that restaurant. It's a wonderful testament to seeing the sights, and sounds, and feelings of how Chinatown feels and how the local community feels about it.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Wendy in Montclair on living near a detention center. Wendy, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Wendy: Hi, good morning. I just thought of calling because I did spend about a decade living within a few blocks of the Brooklyn House of Detention, which is, I don't know if that's a perfect name or if that's the correct name for it. I've lived there and I don't know if either of you are familiar with the neighborhood now. It's exploded. The development there is just completely extraordinary. I know that that's a building that's been there historically for a very long time. I guess one thought I had is just wondering if there are any comparisons between what's happening, if there's a large prison built in Chinatown, and then how that Brooklyn House of Detention seems really integrated.

It's not beautiful, but it's very integrated and it doesn't seem to have-- Once the development started to happen, it doesn't seem like it's held it back or anything. It was just a thought because I lived there happily, very, very happily for over a decade. Just also very excited to hear about the museum that you're discussing, which I hadn't heard of before, so I will be visiting. Thanks.

Michael Lee: That's incredible.

Brian Lehrer: Cool. Wendy, thank you very much. I guess when we talk about jail sighting, and in particular, jail sighting in pursuit of closing Rikers Island, there are cases to be made for it and there are cases to be made against it. I guess one of the cases to be made for it is that there should be more integration with people who are in City jails with the communities, so location within communities in each borough. Staten Island seems to be exempt for some reason, but the plan is in each of the four boroughs.

Because when you send people to Rikers Island or when you send them to the prisons upstate, that makes it even harder for them to be in contact with their families, which helps them reintegrate after whatever legal process they go through. That's one argument for that kind of thing. Another thing is to fight the NIMBY assumption that there sometimes is that because there's a jail in the community, there's going to be crime around the jail in the community when really communities should realize that those are people too, and they're not committing crimes if they're in jail, and their families aren't committing crimes when they go to see them, et cetera, et cetera.

Even that jail should not be hidden from communities so that people take responsibility for, "Oh, how many people are we incarcerating?" That becomes part of the community dialogue. The other side of that is the actual objection that Godzilla and other groups raised to the museum, which is that by supporting the construction of any large jail, you're supporting the continuation of mass incarceration, even though it's in the pursuit of closing Rikers Island. I don't know, that's complex, but I wonder if there's anything you want to say about that.

Michael Lee: To Wendy's point about the Atlantic Detention Center, I believe-- I called it the Atlantic, the one in Brooklyn, I believe it was on Atlantic Avenue, if Wendy's still on, and if it wasn't Atlantic Avenue, I live about maybe a mile from there. Now, that entire detention center has been demolished and it's going to grow up even higher. I don't know how many floors it was before, but now it's going to be 40 floors. I don't know, Wendy. I think, yes, the detention center wasn't that disruptive. I actually looked at an apartment across the street from there when me and my wife were moving.

Now that it's completely knocked down, if you go visit it right now, and it's completely an empty lot, and they're going to build a new 40, even taller jail in that lot. I'm not sure how that would change your calculus in terms of the neighborhood and how you're feeling about it. In terms of, I guess, the elements of everything that you were talking about, Brian, and living in Brooklyn and seeing the protests that go up anytime that there's a shelter or there's something that maybe the neighborhood might not be thrilled by, there's a shelter that's going up in Gowanus that a number of community leaders met about. That's democracy.

We're always going to argue about these things about what's right and what's wrong. Then in terms of being complicit again, there wasn't a deal. There was a need there in the community from us that was put out there by us that said the museum may close and not exist, and this building might be out of the community. The investment was there. It's unfortunate that this investment got tied to the jail, let's put it that way. We like to look at it more as this was a need that should have been funded. New York City should have the largest museum representing the Chinese Americans in the nation because we have the largest Chinese diaspora outside of China. There's about 1 million Chinese around this area in the New York metropolitan area. Then we're the number one city in the United States that Chinese outside of the US come visit. If people want to hear our stories and see how Chinese people live in America-

Brian Lehrer: Come to the museum.

Michael Lee: -they should come to New York City and come to the museum.

Brian Lehrer: Right. I have been told though that another objection by Godzilla and the other groups was to the museum accepting such a large gift, $35 million because they would have preferred that the money be distributed to more smaller cultural institutions and businesses in the area, not just so much to one. Had you heard that?

Michael Lee: Just to get a little bit wonky about the transaction, the museum never actually received the $35 million. The $35 million was earmarked specifically for the owner of building for the museum to purchase the building. I know it's a little bit of a semantics, but at the same time, everybody should know the museum never ever was in possession of that money. That money was given straight to the owner and for the specific purpose of keeping this building in the community. No other reason, and there's no other reason why the money would ever get earmarked or could be used for other things.

We just want people to know that the only reason that the museum would ever agree to this is to make sure that this building is there for generations. I didn't get to finish the intro, I was going too long, I apologize, but really my kids are half Korean and half Chinese. They're going to even know less about Chinese culture, and less about the language, and everything than I will. As you move farther away from generations, and I can attest to this, you lose a lot of the culture, the language, the stories, a lot of everything. It's important that we have a place that's going to exist not only for my kids, but their kids and generations after that.

Brian Lehrer: Sam in Manhattan has been to the museum. Sam, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Sam: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hello.

Sam: Hi.

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you. Let's keep saying hello and hi to each other. I'm kidding.

Sam: Oh, okay.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, we got you.

Sam: I'm an African-American woman and I have visited MOCA several times. I took a couple of students there when I was teaching. I think MOCA is a very valuable resource. I'm very happy that they were able to buy the building. I wish them well and I would encourage all New Yorkers to visit MOCA. I think because we have so many different ethnic groups and histories, it's important for them to have a museum that illustrates their history and contribution to this country.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have anything that sticks with you as one thing that people who might take your advice and go see the museum should go see?

Sam: The exhibits change. It's been quite a while since I've been there, but one was some contemporary art by young people. There were some traditional pieces about the culture and I hope they can expand. Also, they have lecture series that talk about Chinese in America and their interaction with other groups like Italian Americans. I remember going to a lecture about that and just interacting with other groups. They also have performances and you can get on their mailing list.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] That's a lot. Sam, I'm going to leave it there because we're out of time in this segment, but that's a great promotion. Thank you very much. Please call us again. That is a nice way to wrap up. You could hire Sam as one of your publicists, Michael. Tell the listeners anything else as we go out the door about the Museum of Chinese in America.

Michael Lee: I want to thank Sam and all the students that do come to the museum. We get about 10,000 students every year. One of the most fulfilling things I learned about this job was how many student groups do come. If you're a school, come visit, come learn about Chinese immigration. Then again, I just want to say, Brian, thank you. This is a really big honor. I taught a class this morning and I told them about all the different people you interviewed from Obama to Mitch McConnell on all sides of the seats. Shout-out to my basis kids, they were really pretty impressed by their teacher this morning.

Brian Lehrer: The honor is mine. Michael Lee, incoming president of the Museum of Chinese in America. Thank you so much.

Michael Lee: Thank you.

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