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Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Matt Katz, from the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom, filling in for Brian today. Today is the last day of the Supreme Court's term, and they have a few cases left. We'll be following them as they come out. One is pitting gay rights against religious beliefs and is reminiscent of the cake case from several years ago. The other is the big one on President Biden's student loan forgiveness program. We'll share the news as it happens over the next little while, and then, later in the show, after he's had some time to digest it, The Nation's justice correspondent, Elie Mystal, will join us to break down what has happened.

Plus, have you heard of lab-grown meat? The USDA recently approved it. We'll talk about what it is, why some say it's a more ethical option and others are just grossed out. Plus, the director of the Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice will be here to talk about how the city's brand-new budget will affect their work. Speaking of the budget, Adams and Adams shook hands on New York City's $107 billion budget yesterday. Mayor Eric Adams and the City Council reached a deal that brings weeks, maybe months, of contentious negotiations to a close.

The stakes were high. You don't need any reminding that Mayor Eric Adams had pushed for broad spending cuts across all kinds of city agencies, citing a looming financial crisis. City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams probably summed up the mood best. Let's take a listen.

City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams: We can talk for hours about the things that were not accomplished in this budget, not just what you just named, but there were several things that we were not able to accomplish in this budget. We're passing a budget, it's a necessary budget, and we got some fantastic wins for the people of the city, but some were left out. We don't want to skirt around that issue, we don't want to hide that issue. Some were left out. The answer is, yes, the budget's passing right now, but this is a bittersweet moment for this council.

Matt Katz: The bitter, some cuts proposed by the mayor, including to homeless services, stand. The sweets, libraries are spared. We will take a closer look now with my colleagues in the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom reporters, Elizabeth Kim and Giulia Heyward, who cover City Hall. Liz, Giulia, thanks for coming on the show.

Elizabeth Kim: Good morning, Matt.

Matt Katz: Good morning.

Giulia Heyward: Thanks for having us.

Matt Katz: Absolutely. I'm ready to dig into this, but we have to start with this caveat because you guys acknowledged in your report for Gothamist yesterday that the public has been left with incomplete information about the budget. There's only so much we know until the Council actually votes on this later today. There is currently no detailed spending information, right? Has the ink on this dried yet? Could there be more changes? What should we know about where we're at?

Elizabeth Kim: Well, right before I came into the studio, I checked online to see if the finalized budget was online, and it isn't online yet. I did ask the mayor's office, and what I've been told is that what they call the final budget books will be distributed either during or after the Council vote today, which is expected to start at around noon.

Matt Katz: Do the council members even know what's in the budget necessarily?

Elizabeth Kim: We don't have the details. You can argue that that's a problem. I don't think this is the first time it happens. It often happens when they're trying to do things very, very quickly. The fiscal year begins exactly at midnight, July 1st. This is crunch time. We know the big details of the budget, the top line is what they say, but even yesterday, we should note that the mayor's office announced an approximately $107 billion budget. We don't really know it to the final decimal point.

I think, for the public and for journalists, we really want to know, we really want to be able to see, by agency, what is the programmatic funding, what are the programmatic cuts? I would say that is unfortunate for the public, yes.

Matt Katz: Giulia, City Hall released a press release with some of those top-line budget figures that Liz was talking about. What are some of those basics that we know are in this spending plan? Could you tick off a few for us?

Giulia Heyward: Yes. One thing that got a lot of attention over the last couple of months was the prospect of public libraries seeing some funding lost. While that funding has mainly been restored, a huge thing that's come up is that the budget's going to be slashing millions of dollars of funding that goes towards seniors. Those are going to be New Yorkers over the age of 65. One of the things that's going to be cut is going to be its home-delivered meal program for seniors.

Experts are pointing to the fact that we're expecting to see a huge increase of New Yorkers over 65 in the next couple decades. More of these people are expected to be foreign-born or people of color. There's going to be a new task of challenges that we're going to have to address. We're pretty much going to be seeing cuts to virtually every single city agency. Millions of New Yorkers are going to feel some sort of impact to the services that they rely on, from mental health to resources that we provide to folks who are homeless.

Matt Katz: Giulia, you mentioned the asylum seekers and the constraint on the budget due to the asylum seekers and the migrants coming into the city. Mayor Adams celebrated the deal yesterday as a win for working-class New Yorkers but cited the great challenges and unanticipated crises, and chief among them is this arrival of migrants and asylum seekers. How does the budget address this issue? The cost for providing services to them is extraordinary. Can one of you describe this $4.35 billion for asylum seekers? Liz?

Elizabeth Kim: Well, that's the looming question, Mark, on the budget and on the city's fiscal outlook. It hasn't quite been answered. The mayor's position and the Council's position is that Washington should step in and give more funding. They've been able to get around $130 million or so, give or take, but that's not nearly enough. The mayor's office has estimated that this year's spending alone has exceeded $1 billion.

I think, for this year, the city is able to fill that hole. The question is, is going forward, how does the city continue to pay this payout for the shelter and for the services? That also depends, too, on how long will this crisis last and what are the numbers going to look like going into future years.

Matt Katz: Liz, I want to interrupt you for a moment. We have a little bit of breaking news from the Supreme Court. As you know, we're getting decisions rolling in as the show progresses this morning. We have the first decision out. This is from Amy Howe over at SCOTUSblog. The court holds that the First Amendment bars Colorado from forcing a website designer to create expressive designs speaking messages with which the designer disagrees.

Those messages they're referring to are a website for a gay wedding that the website designer objected to possibly being hired to design.

Justice Sotomayor, she wrote a dissent. She said, "Today, the court, for the first time in its history, grants a business open to the public a constitutional right to refuse to serve members of a protected class." A lot more on that later. We're going to talk to Elie Mystal to dig into some of these Supreme Court decisions, and I'll update you all this morning as more come in.

Let's get back to the budget. Listeners, how do you feel about this city budget? What do you think it does and doesn't accomplish for New Yorkers? We can take your questions and calls. The number is (212)-433-WNYC, (212)-433-9692. You can also text us at (212)-433-9692. When Eric Adams was campaigning for mayor, he said he'd put $4 billion a year toward affordable housing, but he and City Council missed that goal last year. Let's talk about affordable housing. How about this time around? Where are we at, Liz?

Elizabeth Kim: There was a report yesterday in the Daily News from unnamed sources that the mayor and Council were putting $4 billion toward capital construction in affordable housing. Again, I want to put in the caveat, we don't know it until we see the ink. The books aren't out yet, but there is a report, and we will see. Interestingly, it wasn't something that the administration or Council highlighted. I just want to go back and just clarify something about the cuts.

With the libraries, and also with senior services, particular with the meals, those were two cuts that the administration had sought, but as a result of budget negotiations, they did manage to fill in those gaps. Those should no longer be imperiled. For example, the libraries were saying that they would be forced to cut back on weekend hours. That should no longer happen. They've been made whole, and the same goes for senior meals.

Matt Katz: Got it. Giulia, how much credit does Speaker Adams and the Council deserve for bringing back some of the money for these cuts, proposed cuts, like for the libraries? Do they get a lot of credit for battling the mayor and winning on this?

Giulia Heyward: I mean, it's definitely been months and months of tense negotiations between the Council and Mayor Adams. For folks who weren't able to see the press conference, the announcement yesterday, there was definitely a somber tone, I think. One thing to note is that the budget that the city has, that $107 billion, that's more than some states in the country get.

It's a lot of money. While the fact that we were able to see so many of these elected officials go back and forth over what the priorities were, the fact that there were still cuts, and the fact that we saw so many folks somberly announce this handshake deal yesterday shows how much people really care. I don't know. I mean, it really is a difficult situation where there needs to be some sort of cut made somewhere. There's not enough to go around, but I think we saw both the mayor and the Council really fight hard for some of the bottom lines that they really did care about.

Matt Katz: Even with this deal yesterday, there still seems to be some lingering tension, particularly around schools. Where does this budget deal leave public schools, Liz?

Elizabeth Kim: The mayor said that the initial budgets for schools would remain flat, regardless of any school enrollment declines. What educators and advocates keyed in on was that word-initial. I asked the mayor yesterday, would there be the possibility of cuts down the road? His response was, "That's not my desire. It's not my desire to make any mid-year cuts." He also couldn't really guarantee it. I think that is also a real concern.

Matt Katz: The other big line item that people always talk about is, of course, public safety. Giulia, can you talk to us about how the mayor, former cop, handled public safety in this budget? There's more money for the supervised release program, which we're going to get into with Deanna Logan, director of the Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice, in the next half hour.

There were $17 million in cuts that I actually had reported on for WNYC on social programs at Rikers, like education classes and substance abuse counseling for detainees. Meanwhile, NYPD officers got a big raise. Did salaries for officers drive some or a lot of the spending in this budget? How did public safety issues shake out more writ large in the budget, Giulia?

Giulia Heyward: That's a great question. Once again, we're still waiting to get all of the details completely about the budget. One thing to know is just while every agency did see cuts, including the NYPD as well, there was also a lot of, one could say, leniency toward the amount of money that they've received. I mean, let's keep in mind that they've gone over their overtime budget already for this year.

We're still waiting to see more of the details in the budget, but public safety, compared to other agencies, one could say, was definitely spared in some of the cuts that they could have received, but didn't.

Matt Katz: We've got a couple of callers about police issues and the budget. Elaine on the Upper East Side. Hi, Elaine.

Elaine: Hi. Thank you. I have been very, very disturbed about the news reports that came through in the last week about the Department of Correction under the radar cutting social service programs in Rikers Island and making purchases of sniper rifles and also some machine guns. To me, that's totally fantastic crazy idea. How can they get away with that? We don't need those kinds of guns in New York. They would never be used. It's a waste of money, and it's a terrible message to give.

Matt Katz: Thank you, Elaine. Thanks for calling. I actually did report that story. It was in a purchase order. The Department of Correction, even though officers are not allowed to use, carry weapons at Rikers Island, they did buy some machine guns about $90,000 worth just last week, and earlier this fiscal year, they bought $100,000 in sniper rifles. They said they could use them for emergencies.

This is a relatively small item in a multi-billion dollar budget, a couple of hundred thousand dollars, but it does show how the amount of money that goes in all different kinds of places in the city. It's hard to keep track of it all, especially when the City Council, as Liz was saying earlier, doesn't really know for sure everything that's in the budget. Liz, can you just describe the mammoth task of keeping track of all the spending in the city and whether our elected officials are able to monitor all of it? Some machine guns just snuck in there.

Elizabeth Kim: Right. We saw what happened last year, which was the first year for many. It was a new council with a lot of new faces. They were also relatively inexperienced. They got heavily criticized for passing a budget that had education cuts. A lot of that was attributed to the fact that did they not really sit down and examine what was going on, line by line, the ramifications of cuts to different programs? It's difficult. I think it's also their job. It's also our job to dissect the budget.

I will say that even something that seems like-- there's been a lot of conversation about the libraries. The libraries were facing a $36 million hole. Now you think about $36 million in the context of $107 billion in total city spending, that's a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket, and yet that $36 million has meaningful impact. It would've meant that a person who lives in Queens would not have been able to go to the library on Sundays. The amounts may seem small, but they can translate into real on-the-ground effects for everyday New Yorkers.

Matt Katz: Let's go back to the phone lines. Brian in Forest Hills. Hi, Brian.

Brian: Hi.

Matt Katz: Thanks for calling in.

Brian: Hi. Am I on the air?

Matt Katz: You're on the air, yes. Welcome to The Brian Lehrer Show. You wanted to chat about the budget?

Brian: Yes. Thank you so much. What I wanted to point out was that the $600 million that the Adams administration says it wants to save on the backs of New York City retirees by taking away our healthcare is just really, as the other person said, a drop in the bucket. It amounts to less than one-fifth of 1% of the $107 billion budget. I also want to point out that it seems that the Adams administration is mounting an attack on seniors because they're taking away our milk program too.

To put this in context that people can understand, the median income in New York City is $67,000. If we do the math, and we equate the $67,000 with the $107 billion budget, it would be the equivalent of a person for going a dinner for two at around $120 in one year. That's the impact that our healthcare costs have on the city. I'm saying that the comptroller's office has said that even though the Adams administration claims that $600 million would be coming back to the city, most of that is going to--

I mean, the comptroller's office said that only some $200 million of that is going to go to the city. Actually, most of it is going to go to union welfare benefit funds, which are mismanaged. They're not audited according to the independent budget office. We would like to see other cost-saving measures. I mean, one thing that we could do is just cut out the insurance companies entirely. The city self-insures for things like automobiles and real estate.

Matt Katz: Thanks.

Brian: There is no reason why they couldn't self-insure.

Matt Katz: Thank you, Brian. I appreciate it. Is there any points that Brian made, Liz, that you'd like to fill? I mean, he's talking about the New Yorkers at retirement age, seniors who are facing hurdles. He talked about what the retirees are dealing with who were city employees and cuts to their medical benefits. Did those issues come up in these city budget negotiations at all?

Elizabeth Kim: They definitely did. This whole push by the city to privatize retirees' benefits has been a huge controversy. It's been fought in court as well, and I believe it will continue to be. The caller makes a really good point. That also seems like, why is the city unwilling to spend a tiny fraction more on the annual budget to fund retirees' healthcare to what they used to have? Why are they seeking to save?

The answer to that question is because this has been this fight for a really long time is that how much can the city pay to fund these employee and retired employees' benefits in perpetuity. The question isn't just about the upcoming year, but it's about all the upcoming years, and how does the city manage those costs. Municipalities across the country have been trying to find some, exactly what the caller says, cost-saving measures, but where do they find them from? That's the debate that's raging between the two parties.

Matt Katz: We're going to get to your calls, run through more of the details of the budget. Hold tight there, Giulia. We're also going to play a viral clip of Mayor Adams when we come back from a quick break. We'll be back in just a minute. Stay with us.

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Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Matt Katz, reporter with WNYC and Gothamist, filling in for Brian today, who's starting his holiday weekend a little early. My guests are WNYC and Gothamist reporters, Liz Kim and Giulia Heyward, who cover City Hall. Before we went to the break, Giulia wanted to make a point. Hey there, Giulia. You want to finish what you were trying to say earlier before I rudely cut you off?

Giulia Heyward: No, you're fine. I just wanted to just hop back on what Liz had said and mentioned that during all these budget negotiations that we'd had, folks would routinely refer to the budget as a "moral manifest" which is to say that some of the cuts that we saw, it's not necessarily a coincidence that some of the folks that may end up losing, or folks that have been historically marginalized, or haven't necessarily had as strong of a voice when it comes to advocating for things that they want.

Really, the budget is about money, but it also gets incredibly emotional because we're talking about something that is going to impact the lives of New Yorkers from every single borough within the city.

Matt Katz: You mentioned emotional reactions to the budget. I can't help but thinking of this viral encounter that the mayor had the other day. I think it was Wednesday. It was related to housing and the rising cost of housing. I'm going to play the clip, and then maybe we could talk about it. This was in Washington Heights. An 84-year-old woman, who is white, criticized the city's rent increases on rent-stabilized apartments. She asked the mayor about it.

For context, her voice was raised. She was clearly upset, but she didn't have a microphone, and she had to call across the room, which is one reason why we won't hear her in this clip. She did refer to the mayor as Mr. Mayor, but here is how he responded.

Mayor Adams: Okay. First, if you're going to ask a question, don't point at me, and don't be disrespectful to me. I'm the mayor of this city, and treat me with the respect at which I'm deserved to be treated. I'm speaking to you as an adult. Don't stand in front like you treated someone that's on a plantation that you own. Give me the respect I deserve, and engage in the conversation up here in Washington Heights. Treat me with the same level of respect I treat you. Don't be pointing at me, don't be disrespectful to me. Speak with me as an adult because I'm a grown man. I walked into this room as a grown man, and I'm going to walk out of this room as a grown man. I answered your question.

Matt Katz: It turns out the woman was born in Europe after her family escaped Nazi Germany. She's a longtime civic activist. The headline in The New York Times today is not a good look for Adams. It says, "Mayor compares housing activists whose family fled Holocaust to plantation owner." Liz, you follow the mayor wherever he goes. Were you surprised by his reaction to this comment? What do you make of it?

Elizabeth Kim: No, I wasn't surprised because if you follow the mayor every day you know that, first, he does insist on decorum. The way he speaks and handles questions from the press corps, he will not accept a reporter speaking out of turn. If we're getting just one question, you get one question, unless you're Marcia Kramer from CBS, and he likes you, but for the most part, that's how the mayor operates.

There's also something else. The mayor is very conscious of race and racism. That's understandable. He's only the second Black mayor in the City of New York. In that moment, you have two things coming into play. One, he insists on decorum. You speak to me, you should respect me as the mayor. He admonishes her for that, for the finger pointing, but then he gets into the other issue of-- he's basically accusing the woman of taking a racist tone implicitly by saying that she's somehow a plantation owner. "Don't speak to me like you own this plantation."

There are two complicated things happening at the same time. It's very interesting. The Times article picks up on this. Initially, when he tells her, "We're two adults, speak to me respectfully," there's applause in the room. Once he mentions the plantation part, the applause dies down a little. I think that's where people start thinking like, "Well, is that fair to this woman?" Then, of course, immediately the next day, her identity is also revealed and becomes part of this discussion. She's a Holocaust survivor. Now, what does that mean?

Matt Katz: Then the issue at hand is also probably the biggest issue in the city is that it's so crazy unaffordable to rent or live here. That's the crux of what she was bringing up is that rent-stabilized apartment, that that limit has risen. Giulia, what do you make of it and the policy behind it? You spoke of marginalized communities not necessarily having their say in the budget process, and here's an issue tangentially related to the budget. What do you make of that encounter and the policy issues behind it?

Giulia Heyward: I mean, again, we could spend the entire day talking about the dynamics of race and identity politics under Adams. There are plenty of other folks who have tried do in the past as well, but it just goes back again. We're not talking about a disagreement that once the conversation is over, both Adams and the woman he's speaking to can just go about their lives. We're talking about where people sleep at night.

The gravity of these budget talks is that it really is impacting how safe folks feel at night, whether or not they're going to be able to have that check cleared when they give it to their landlord at the end of the month. It really is just such an emotionally charged time right now for the city.

Matt Katz: We're going to go back to the phone lines. Valentina in Brooklyn. Good morning, Valentina.

Valentina: Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. With the understanding that you've been discussing some incredibly important issues with regards to surviving in the city and housing, I have a question with regards to the culture budget this year. Specifically, how funding for the Department of Cultural Affairs will be affected and whether they were "spared". There has been a lot of talk about libraries, but obviously, DCLA is the biggest municipal funder of arts and culture in the United States, and from what I understand, their proposed fiscal budget was slightly lower than in 2023. I was just wondering if you have any insights on that, and what we can expect in the budget for culture and the arts.

Matt Katz: Liz, do you have any insight into that?

Elizabeth Kim: There's actually good news on that front. At yesterday's press conference, they said that the cultural institutions were facing cuts, but that in the end, most or if not all of those cuts have been restored.

Matt Katz: What kind of items are we talking about here, cultural budget, I mean? What do they fund?

Elizabeth Kim: Just think of museums, you name it, programming that's put on by different institutions. I think it runs a huge gamut. That's actually a good point, Matt. Again, it goes back to once we actually look at the budget, you can look at each program by program and how much funding it's getting, and whether there's been any tweaks because, of course, we could say that the total funding may be the same or even more, but then there might be particular programs in which money has been moved.

Matt Katz: Sure. Also, people don't necessarily realize that things that are funded by the city, that are funded by the city, they might think it's private donations, or they're admission dollars to the museum, but the city is obviously sending checks all over to subsidize all sorts of things.

Elizabeth Kim: Correct.

Matt Katz: I don't think the public necessarily is aware of that always. Giulia, I saw a press release from the Progressive Caucus on the Council opposing elements of this budget. What do we know about if any members of City Council are going to vote against it? What are you hearing from some of the more liberal members of the Council who generally oppose the mayor and his policies?

Giulia Heyward: Again, we are still waiting to find all the line items of the budget, which we should get in the next couple of days. For sure, the budget story isn't going away anytime soon. This has already been mentioned, but folks are not happy to see some of the cuts that went to Rikers and the Department of Corrections. I would not be surprised if we see more conversation around that, particularly when there's been such a movement to ensure that Rikers is closed by the 2027 date if I'm correct. We're all just waiting to find out more, but we should be finding that out shortly.

Matt Katz: What's on the docket for the rest of the day, Liz? What are we waiting for exactly?

Elizabeth Kim: We're waiting for the Council to vote. The Council has to officially pass the budget, and that's expected to happen at noon.

Matt Katz: Then is it a matter of reporters going through? Is it a matter of advocates going through it and flagging things for reporters? How will we know some of these nitty-gritty details like a tiny line item like $90,000 for submachine guns for Rikers? How does one even begin to learn about that kind of stuff?

Elizabeth Kim: It's both. It's going to be reporters, and it's also going to be advocates because you better believe they want to get their hands on the line items too. They're going to be ready to make some noise if they see a particular priority, see funding slashed. There's already been sort of a narrative out there that there are still cuts here. There are important cuts here to housing, to education, to social services. I think that's the large assumption that they're going on, but once they get the actual numbers, we'll know, and we can say like, "Well, this particular program that has been funding X, Y, Z, will now no longer be able to do X, Y, Z.

Matt Katz: Giulia, before I let you go, I'm curious where this leaves things politically between the Council and the mayor. Once the dust settles, how are relations? What might that mean? There was something made of the handshake yesterday between Speaker Adams and Mayor Adams. Didn't seem very warm after they announced this budget deal, at least compared to last year when the two exchanged a hug after their budget deal. How are things politically between the two bodies?

Giulia Heyward: That is such a great question. I do want to note that Adams is currently in the second year of his term right now, and this is the second time that he's had to work on a budget with the Council. The Council is really interesting, too, and we're seeing so many more women and people of color who are now in these elected spots to represent the city. It's definitely tense. There's no way that you could be even paying the slightest bit attention to what's been going on at City Hall and not acknowledge that things are tense, but these are also folks that still need to continue to work together.

I don't think this will be the last time that we'll see folks have this somber tone or see a handshake that seems less than enthusiastic, but a lot of these people are going to have to continue to work together every single day. Regardless if they like it or not, they need to figure out some way to be able to talk to each other and share what it is that they have to say the best way that they possibly can.

Matt Katz: All right, we'll let you guys go to figure out what's going on with this budget. Thank you so much for coming on and walking us through it. Really appreciate. WNYC and Gothamist newsroom reporters, Liz Kim, Giulia Heyward. Thanks, guys.

Elizabeth Kim: Thanks, Matt.

Giulia Heyward: Thanks for having us.

 

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