Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Well, it's fall, it's October the 4th, and it's officially heat season in New York City. Here's the law, if you didn't know it, heads up renters especially and landlords, between October 1st and May 31st, landlords must provide heat for their tenants. Duh. Those are the dates, October 31st to May 31st, and by what standard? Well, during the daytime, that is between 6:00 AM and 10:00 PM, early morning to late evening, 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM, if the outside temperature falls below 55 degrees, the inside temperature must be 68 degrees. That's from October 1st to May 31st.

If the outside temperature falls below 55, the inside temperature has to be heated to 68 from 6:00 in the morning till 10 o'clock at night. Overnight, it's a little looser. At night between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM, the temperature inside must be at least 62 degrees Fahrenheit regardless of outside temperatures but not 68. That's the law. A lot of people don't have indoor thermometers, and if you think your landlord isn't providing you with sufficient heat, get an indoor thermometer and monitor it and call them out if you need to.

Way back in 1957, the New York Times reported the actual jailing of a Park Avenue landlord. He was put in jail for five days for not meeting the 68-degree standard in his building, and he was charging a lot of rent for that time too. Some of his apartments were being rented for $480 a month, can you believe it? Yes, that was 1957, but what are you going to do now? How are you going to enforce it on your landlord if you're not getting enough heat? It happens all the time.

We're happy to have back with us Judith Goldiner, Attorney-in-Charge at The Legal Aid Society's Civil Law Reform Unit, who's going to help explain more of the ins and outs of heat season and how to better advocate for heat for your apartment or for your neighbors if you're having heat issues. Judith, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Judith Goldiner: Always a pleasure, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Did I explain the rules adequately? Is there anything you want to add to that?

Judith Goldiner: Completely. One thing I want to add is really people should be vigilant on this, so if you feel like you're not getting enough heat, I want to emphasize, Brian, what you said, get a thermometer and start keeping a log every day during the day and at night of what the heat is.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, were you cold over the weekend even though it's technically heat season as of Saturday? Do you have questions for our guest, Judith Goldiner, from the Legal Aid Society, 212-433-WNYC, your questions about your rights to heat, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Landlords, perfectly happy to have your calls as well on the difficulty in compliance, and we understand that this is a season when ConEd says, "It's going to be more expensive than last year." They don't usually say that in advance, but Judith, you saw that over the summer, right? ConEd said, ''Hey, everybody, heat is going to be more expensive if you're a ConEd customer this winter than last.''

Judith Goldiner: Yes, but obviously, whether heat is more expensive or less expensive, is not a defense to providing heat. It's really critically important that folks have heat and that landlords meet these rather minimal requirements. Remember, 62 at night and 68 during the day, it's not very hot, but it's going to keep you warm enough. The other thing I should add is that if you are not getting proper heat, you're looking at your thermometer and the heat is not correct, you should call 311 and ask the City to send out an inspector to check on the heat.

Brian Lehrer: I mentioned that 1957 story where a landlord went to jail for five days for falling below the 60-something degree standard. What are the consequences for landlords these days who fail to provide adequate heat in heating season?

Judith Goldiner: Well, I wish I could tell you, Brian, that a lot of them are going to jail for this, but they're not. That means it's more important than ever for tenants to be vigilant, calling 311. If you're not getting heat, you may want to go take your landlord to Housing Court. You can start a case against the landlord to provide heat. If you are a rent-regulated tenant, you can also file a complaint about lack of heat with the state housing agency. I really recommend doing all three of those things if someone doesn't have heat.

Brian Lehrer: New York Daily News article describes one landlord who was recently sentenced to six months in jail because his building had multiple violations including no heat for years. I don't know how they got away with it for years. In 2019, a fire started from a space heater, and one man died from jumping out the window, but I guess that's really unusual. It's also extreme.

Judith Goldiner: I will not say [crosstalk] [unintelligible 00:05:47] landlord who actually didn't turn on the heat and gave tenants unsafe space heaters to heat their apartments and not surprisingly that caused a fire. Space heaters can be very dangerous, turning on the stove to heat your apartment can also be very dangerous. We really don't recommend that people do that if they can possibly help it.

Brian Lehrer: Gothamist reports lack of heat violations are considered Class C violations and owners will be penalized between $250 and $500 per day for each initial heat or hot water violation. Subsequent violations during the same or next heat season would be penalized anywhere between $500 and $1,000 per day. I mean, that adds up if they get on the government's radar. Right?

Judith Goldiner: Well, it does. Unfortunately, we rarely see landlords who pay those fines because unfortunately when you go to court, the City takes pennies on the dollar for those fines. What's important is if the City comes out and places a violation for lack of heat, a landlord has only 24 hours to get the heat back on, and they really need to do that right away. It's a Class C violation. It's the most serious violation. Obviously, right now, although it's cold out, it's not that cold, but it's going to be very cold soon, and it's so important for people to make sure that they have heat, really could be-- In the winter, obviously it's a life or death situation.

Brian Lehrer: Gabriela in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Judith Goldiner from Legal Aid. Hi, Gabriela.

Gabriela: Hi, Brian. I live in a co-op building, and I'm an owner, but I don't have heat right now. I was wondering-- Last year, I emailed my co-op board, and they told me to buy a space heater for the times that the heat is not on, but it's freezing. I was wondering if there are any rights that I have as an owner and a co-op board if the co-op board is not cooperating or turning on the heat or if it's really just tenants that have those rights?

Brian Lehrer: Before Judith answers that, let me ask you, are there also renters in your building-

Gabriela: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: -or is it 100% owner occupied, because if there are renters in the building, then even before we address the co-op owners' rights, the co-op board is responsible to provide heat because there are tenants there. Judith, is that wrong?

Judith Goldiner: No, that's right, but they're also required in a co-op to provide you heat, assuming the heat is in the walls. I'm assuming right now that you don't have baseboard electric heat, and if the heat is coming from a common area of the building, which is most co-ops, then the co-op board is required in the same way any other landlord is required to provide heat in the same way.

Their failure to do that can result in the City placing a violation. I think you need to tell your co-op board if they won't turn on the heat, you might have to call 311 and get a City inspector out there.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I guess where it gets weird for co-op owners is the co-op board is us. Right? It's the owner, it's some of the owners who are elected by the other owners.

Judith Goldiner: Well, although that's correct, the co-op board has an obligation to fix whatever is wrong in the common areas of the building and also in the interior of the building. Let's say, for example, a different situation, you had a pipe break in the wall, that's the co-op board's responsibility to fix. If the pipe breaks outside the wall, it's the co-op owner's responsibility.

Brian Lehrer: Gabriela, is that helpful at all?

Gabriela: Yes, I think so. First, I should approach the co-op board, and then if that doesn't result in any action, then call 311 next.

Judith Goldiner: That's what my recommendation is.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Judith Goldiner: You have to be very careful with space heaters.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Well, we've seen too many cases that have been in the news of unbelievable tragedies caused by space heaters or improper use of space heaters. Lisa in Union City, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lisa.

Lisa: Yes, hi. I wonder if you could give the same time and temperature regulations for the State of New Jersey, and also if there are special requirements for Section 8 housing buildings or for senior housing buildings, predominantly with senior residents?

Brian Lehrer: Judith, anything on that?

Judith Goldiner: I'm sorry, I don't know what the rules are in New Jersey. I actually just tried to Google it, and I don't see that. I'm sorry, I don't work in New Jersey, but I would definitely recommend talking to legal services in your area, and they should be able to help you.

Brian Lehrer: Well, part of the question was about Section 8. Is that a national standard, because that's federal housing voucher?

Judith Goldiner: In general,-- Well, Section 8 requires that tenants be provided with a minimal level of habitable apartments. That's certainly going to include heat and hot water, but it doesn't include heat and hot water at any specific time or temperature. That's usually set by localities.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. You may not be able to give an exact number or stat, but based on your work and experience, how common is inadequate heating in New York City during heat season?

Judith Goldiner: Sadly, it's very common. I mean, it's the most common complaint that our clients raise with us.

Brian Lehrer: Really?

Judith Goldiner: Absolutely. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Is it more common in NYCHA buildings, which tend to be old and not in the best condition? We know repairs tend to take a long time as well to work their way through the bureaucracy.

Judith Goldiner: We definitely see it in public housing buildings, but we see it in buildings across the city regardless of status.

Brian Lehrer: Can tenants withhold rent if their apartment isn't properly heated, or how would you go about doing that in terms of figuring out how much to withhold? Hopefully, nobody has to get to that point.

Judith Goldiner: Well, I think certainly tenants can withhold rent. The problem with withholding rent is that you will then get sued in Housing Court and have to assert that as a defense, and that can be difficult for tenants, especially because right now we don't have enough lawyers to represent everyone in Housing Court. That's why I recommend trying to do something more affirmative, which is, calling 311, going to court against your landlord. If you're rent-regulated, filing a complaint with the state housing agency.

Brian Lehrer: Mary in Fairfield County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mary.

Mary: Hi. I used to live in a co-op that had very uneven heat. My apartment was the coldest. I kept a log, but I also took a cellphone picture of the thermometer in an area that would show it was my apartment. That can be really useful because it's your word against somebody else's. One resident will say, "My apartment was 50" and the other resident on the board will say, "Well, mine was 70." If you have a cellphone picture, it's date stamped.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Good one.

Judith Goldiner: That's definitely true. We recommend all that kind of thing. That can be helpful. It's also helpful, as I said, to keep a special notebook where you can log in the morning and the evening what the temperatures are, both outside and inside.

Brian Lehrer: Mary, thanks for that tip. Judith, I mentioned earlier that ConEd sent letters and emails to people in our listening area warning of higher heat and electricity prices this winter. They warned that the average customer can expect their heat bill to be 32% higher, a third higher. That's the stats cited by Spectrum News New York1. Do you think as a result of that, and I heard what you said before about that's no excuse for landlords to not provide the heat that's required under the law for sure, but do you think we're going to see more landlords being stingy with the heat this winter because of this and therefore more cases that need to be fought?

Judith Goldiner: Well, it wouldn't shock me if that happened, Brian. I will say what we see more often is it depends on how cold it is. If we have a very cold winter, we're more likely to see many more heat complaints. If it's a very warm winter, we're likely to see less.

Brian Lehrer: How much is this an equity issue? Are certain landlords withholding heat because they feel they can get away with it because of who their tenants are in power terms because they're low-income or in rent-stabilized leases that they don't want to mess with?

Judith Goldiner: We certainly see landlords who withhold heat to get tenants out. Don't make repairs, don't provide heat and hot water. That's a way to try and vacate buildings. We certainly see that.

Brian Lehrer: We will leave it there, with Judith Goldiner, Attorney-in-Charge at The Legal Aid Society's Civil Law Reform Unit. I'm just going to go over those basics again so that everybody knows the law. Now that we're in the heat season from October 1st to May 31st, during the daytime between 6:00 AM and 10:00 PM if the outside temperature falls below 55 degrees Fahrenheit, the inside temperature must be 68 degrees.

Overnight between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM, the temperature inside must be at least 62 degrees with the heat. If your landlord is not providing heat at those legal levels, get a thermometer, take photos of your thermometer, document it, approach the landlord first. When should they call Legal Aid, Judith? I guess first call 311. Who should come to you when?

Judith Goldiner: First, call 311. Get an inspector out there and certainly call Legal Aid. Call others, call your elected officials. Make a racket.

Brian Lehrer: Judith, thanks a lot.

Judith Goldiner: Thank you, Brian. Good talking to you.

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