Brian Lehrer: As John Lennon segues us from Ibram X. Kendi to our last segment of the show before Father's Day, we're going to open up the phones now for a Father's Day call-in for all the dads listening to reflect on what fatherhood and being a father means to you. I thought we might frame this as a call-in for dads currently raising kids at home. If your kids are already grown, give the next-gen dads the floor here, if we have any listening at this time. I know it's the workday, so a lot of people of prime working outside the home or inside the home at your job these days.

Men and women and everybody of all genders not always available to listen to the show at this time of day, but if we have dads currently raising kids at home, you're going to get first priority on the phones at 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

The frame here is with changing gender roles over time and changing notions of what makes a good male, a good man, how different do you think your notions of being a good dad are than your own fathers might have been a generation ago? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Maybe it flows a little bit out of the conversation we were just having with Dr. Kendi about how to raise an anti-racist as a father, but on many other aspects too, so I'll just say it again.

With changing gender roles over time and changing notions of what makes a good man, how different do you think your notions of being a good dad, a good father, are than your own fathers might have been a generation ago even with the best good faith on their part? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 dads.

Part of the politics these days is the sort of weaponized nostalgia, I sometimes call it, to fight people's way back to older notions of masculinity, if you want to call it. This Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Proud Boys even - if I may - masculinity of old, but for other people, obviously it's not that simple. What was good about your father's masculinity and how it expressed itself in fatherhood at that time? What did you adopt from it and what did you leave behind as maybe your notion of what makes a good man in 2022 is a little different from your own dad's? Any thoughts on that, dads? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

For these last few minutes of the show, just about a 10-minute call-in here, and other ways we could approach these. More invitations for more kinds of dads with gay marriage and changing gender roles. Happy Pride Month to all of you gay and queer dads out there. We cannot forget our queer and gender non-conforming parents, so LGBTQ people, if you consider yourself a dad, you call in too. What is being a father or parent to you if gender isn't that queer, as binary as it was, to your father's generation? What is being a good father mean to you? Anything along those lines. Who has a thought? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. We'll take your calls after this.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, some of your phone calls on raising kids as a dad if you identify as a dad these days, and how it might be different from your father with changing notions of gender and masculinity these days. How about Diego in Williamsburg? You're on WNYC. Hi, Diego.

Diego: Hi. How are you? Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: Good.

Diego: I'm 53. My son is turning 21 in a couple of months. We raised him here, and I raised him with my wife here in Williamsburg, Brooklyn the past 21 years. Actually, he's a graduate. He's a senior going into senior year at Boston University in Theater Arts, so I wanted to give a shout-out to Dr. Kendi for his work and his leadership.

Brian Lehrer: Right, because that's where he teaches. How about you as a dad? Talk about you as a dad.

Diego: Oh, me as a dad? Dads don't come with a manual. It's a lot of trial and error. We try our best. I'm a freelance musician. Some days I'm busy, some days I have more time to spend with my son. Of course now he's 21, but when he was a child I remember trying to get my hands into every daily activity as much as possible and really support him. He grew up as a singer, as an actor, as an artistic creative person.

Brian Lehrer: You think you were different from your dad in any way having to do with notions of what makes a man?

Diego: What makes a man? I think what makes a man is showing your children a way to be generous with your talents and understanding people to a level that shows a level of compassion that will carry you throughout your life.

Brian Lehrer: Compassion, the C-word. Maybe not the first thing that would've been associated with masculinity in generations gone by. The first thing you brought up though, Diego. Thank you very much. Jamie in Plainview, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jamie.

Jamie: Hi, Brian. My father is an older generation. He's 83 next month, I'm 49 next month. My son is 20, he'll be going to college in the fall. My dad grew up in a very tough Irish Catholic working-class neighborhood outside of Philly. One of his favorite things to say whenever we would complain or anyone complained is tough luck, and obviously, he wouldn't say tough luck. It wasn't a cruel thing, but it was more just like there's no pity for the fact that there are obstacles in life and they'll never stop. It often made me be like, "Oh, thanks a lot," but I have to admit it has helped me many, many times.

In my forties, somewhere I found the power of empathy, and that telling people tough luck doesn't motivate them nearly as much as saying, "Wow, that's really hard. I'm proud that you're going to get through that anyway." That's how I've changed.

Brian Lehrer: Jamie, that's really interesting. Thank you very much. Daniel in Great Neck, you're on WNYC. Hi, Daniel.

Daniel: Hello. Huge fans of your show. We actually listen every morning usually while I'm making a bottle.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] Ah, so your baby is new?

Daniel: Yes, she's new to the world. We had her later in the pandemic [baby cooing] when things were super tough.

Brian Lehrer: Just made her radio debut. What's her name?

Daniel: Gwen.

Brian Lehrer: Hi, Gwen, you're on the radio. Go ahead, Daniel. Sorry.

Daniel: It's been a crazy experience because it's just being a new dad in the pandemic. I'm also working full-time from home. My wife is a teacher so she's at work during the day. I'm on baby duty.

Brian Lehrer: How about you as a 2022 dad compared to when you were Gwen's age and your dad?

Daniel: I think my dad had a really tough childhood and a hard father figure. I think he did the best he could and I love him very much, but I think he was of the generation of like, "This is how to be a dad," and, "This is what a dad is." He worked a lot. I think he tried to provide for us, but for me it's all about being a dad first, being an employee second. I think no one ever gets to the end of their life and says, "I wish I had worked more." I just enjoy spending as much time with her as I can and having the ability to do that. It's kind of a crazy new way to be a dad but I love it.

Brian Lehrer: Daniel, thank you very much, and good luck with Gwen. John in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, John.

John: Hey, Brian. Glad to talk to you. I think the difference for me growing up is it's a shift from my dad's sense of functional intelligence to what I try and bring in terms of emotional intelligence, so IQ versus EQ. The other thing that--

Brian Lehrer: It's so interesting because this is a theme. This is not to criticize past generations. This call-in is to document change. The first caller talked about compassion being top of mind as one of the differences between him and his dad and what their starting points were. Another caller already talked about leaning into empathy instead of saying "tough luck" when things don't go well. You're talking about head to heart, so we've got a theme here, I think.

John: Yes, I agree. I think it's also related to labels and identity. If you identify as a man first and as a dad or a parent second it does lead to that traditional role of bringing home the food from the hunt. If you instead see yourself as a parent and it becomes relational, "I'm in a relationship with this person" rather than just being the traditional role of providing, it then helps you open up some of those capabilities, we'll say, emotionally.

Brian: Thank you so much, John. Thank you. We'll get one more on here. Francisco in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Francisco.

Francisco: Hi, Brian. How are you? Thank you for taking my call. I think I agree with you with the theme thing. It's important to say that I think our generation now and fathers now, I hope most are into this whole empathy thing and trying to think about the needs of our sons and daughters. Like my son's 14. My dad wasn't really too empathetic and really didn't put my needs as a father first. I put my son's needs first before my own.

I mentioned to the screener that my dad was a little bit of a machista. I'm from the Latino culture, and that's not the whole Latino lifestyle but--

Brian: Machista.

Francisco: Yes. He was a womanizer. It was about his way or the highway and it's not like that with my son. I communicate with my son. I've been treating him like a little man since he was a baby.

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Brian: That's a beautiful expression. It's going to be the last word. Thanks to all you dads for calling in. Happy Father's Day to my dad. Happy Father's Day to everybody listening who is a dad. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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