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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, again, everyone. Coming up later this hour, Taylor Swift fans versus Ticketmaster and Ticketmaster versus you. We'll explore the antitrust questions being raised after a Ticketmaster service meltdown that maybe you were caught up in around a Taylor Swift tour. Are you getting played whenever you want to see a show or a sporting event? That's coming up.

Right now New York City Council began consideration this week of five bills designed to make it safer to use an e-bike after the e-bike battery fire in that building on East 52nd Street. The fire department counts 191 such lithium-ion battery fires this year, with 140 injuries and six deaths. This subject is just the latest focus on the complicated question of how best to respect the right of low-paid delivery workers to make a living and not banning their tools, while increasing safety for those workers who use and store the e-bikes and also for pedestrians on streets where the proliferation of electric two-wheelers of various kinds is causing fear and sometimes grave injuries.

We'll talk about all this now with two New York City journalists Ross Barkan, a New York Magazine contributor and Crain's New York business columnist, he has a column in Crain's called, Delivery Workers Bear the Brunt of E-bike Fires, and Alissa Walker, journalist with Curbed who has an article called, Don't Blame the E-bike. Alissa and Ross, thanks for joining us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Ross Barkan: Thank you for having me.

Alissa Walker: Thanks, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Ross, your column starts with a big picture sentence, "Since lawmakers first legalized e-bikes a couple of years ago, the New York streetscape has transformed remarkably." Want to start by describing the big picture of that transformation as you see it?

Ross Barkan: Sure. Well, anyone who lives in the city knows that e-bikes are everywhere. This isn't a judgment against them at all, just that they have proliferated dramatically in the last two years. You see delivery bikes all over. People use them to get around, to take their children to school, to commute and it is now a part of city life, in a way, it was not just a few years ago.

I think it's easy to see a dramatic change and get used to it quickly enough where you go, "Oh, of course, there were always these bikes flying around," but we didn't have motorized e-bikes. You had some illegal ones, a few years back, but really, if you think about the streetscape in 2015 or '16 or '17, it doesn't look like the streetscape today. Again, I'm not saying that is negative merely to acknowledge the fact that yes, we are in a transformed city, one that has many benefits, but also some clear downsides as well.

Brian Lehrer: One of the things you describe in your article is the situation of poorer delivery workers buying cheap imitation e-bike batteries, and an underground charging industry that has sprung up. Can you explain both?

Ross Barkan: Yes. You have now a entire quasi-black market industry around batteries. Though, again, these batteries aren't illegal, but delivery workers have to charge their batteries, and they can charge them in their houses, which is quite dangerous, or they have been increasingly going to public housing developments where residents there will charge them for cash since public housing residents don't pay electricity the way that residents in typical apartment would.

We've had this burgeoning, under the radar, industry of e-bikes being brought to public housing developments to charge because these workers need charged bikes. They need batteries. Batteries are very expensive. They can run $1,000 even more. Bikes are expensive too.

There's this entire unregulated market that has sprung up around the charging of batteries, around the disposal of batteries, and the real problem here is e-bike battery fires are quite dangerous. The lithium-ion battery, if it catches fire, it's very hard to put out. It's the reason why you're seeing the increasing number of deaths. There is a major public health component to all of this.

Brian Lehrer: Alissa, your article headline, as I said before, is, Don't Blame the E-bike. Don't blame the e-bike for what?

Alissa Walker: Well, I think the more important thing to look at when you look at these fires-- I'm based in Los Angeles. I tried very hard to even find a similar fire like this happening in Los Angeles. I couldn't find one. We have the same e-bike boom happening. I would argue that we have perhaps safer places to charge them because a lot more people have garages here. They have access to outdoor areas.

If a fire starts there, it's not going to be as devastating as it is when it's in a small apartment. If you look at it, it's not really anything to do with the e-bike, it's all the batteries. These are, like Ross said, these very dangerous batteries in some case. They're very cheap batteries, and they are very volatile in a fire. It's a very serious public health concern, but to blame e-bikes when it's a battery problem.

We actually saw the same thing a few years ago. Remember hoverboards, those self-balancing scooters that everybody had, there were tons of fires. A bunch of people got them for Christmas around 2015, 2016, and the federal government stepped in, recalled a bunch of them and you don't hear about those as much anymore. We need to see some federal action going after the batteries, and that's why I was happy to see the city council really highlight that as the problem.

Brian Lehrer: You wrote that City Council Member Gale Brewer's proposed legislation to ban refurbished batteries is targeting the right problem by getting the dangerous element of the e-bike into their sights, but it won't go anywhere without a parallel plan to get safer batteries, which cost more money, into the hands of the workers. How can they do that? Do you have ideas?

Alissa Walker: Yes. There were some great testimonies during this hearing. One thing I'll point out is that there was a speaker there from a local bike shop, Propel, which sells very high-end bike. Those come with a certified Bosch brand battery that's made in Germany. They talked about how this is a $800 to $1,000 battery to replace. That's the kind of quality battery we're looking for. It's certified. It's UL listed, which is this federal certification for any appliance that you would plug into your home. That's the idea where you could start a battery exchange, perhaps, with a subsidized battery paid for by some city money.

Someone could just trade in their bad battery for a better battery. The other idea that was proposed at the hearing, which is I think a really good idea, is the battery swap by this coalition called Safer Charging. You'd be out on your e-bike riding around, anyone could buy into this subscription service, like a monthly charge or something, and you actually just never even own a battery. You just take a battery to a central facility, and you swap it out for a charged one, and then you go on your way. You don't ever have to worry about any of the maintenance or safety issues about charging at home.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Ellen in Williamsburg, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ellen.

Ellen: Hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I live in a building in Williamsburg. We're like old-time tenants, 30 plus years, and our landlord approached us that they were going to be doing a green energy thing on our roof. They were going to put in solar panels. We were all just thrilled. We want to go solar, we want to be green. The next thing we know, it's a large company called Microgrid, which is having, I guess, solar panels on different roofs, they said our building was the only building at all that was suitable. What they really have planned for our roof are not solar panels, but huge lithium-ion batteries.

Once we realize that, we started doing some research. Usually, they're on commercial buildings, not residential buildings, and right now this is a totally residential building. We're next to a playground, and I don't know if it's the same concerns with the e-bike batteries, but we're terrified. We're afraid these things are going to burn and we're going to die.

We're fighting. Microgrid is going to give, I forget what the exact number is, so I don't want to say, but tens of thousands of dollars rent that they want to give to the landlord. Right now we have scaffolding all over our building. That's the most professional-looking thing I've ever seen here because it's usually rinky-dink. They're prepairing the building. Right now we have a stop work order, and I don't know how dangerous this thing is.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Well, let me see if our guests know anything about that. She's describing a building with a solar company that wants to put huge lithium-ion batteries on their roof, it sounds like. Ross, is this anything you've ever heard of?

Ross Barkan: I haven't heard much about it. The danger with lithium-ion battery really, as Alissa pointed out, is you have these substandard batteries that are going around, that are being bought by these delivery workers and these are the ones catching fire. If you do it safely, I imagine, with a high-quality battery, it might be less of a threat. I'm not an expert on this, but from what I understand with the fires, they come from bikes being improperly charged, or they come from really inferior low-quality batteries that probably shouldn't be legal in the first place. Assuming this is more above board, it might be fine, but I would definitely seek more information because I'm not an expert on e-bikes.

Brian Lehrer: Alissa, anything to add on that, from what we heard?

Alissa Walker: Sure. Again, my limited knowledge of what Microgrids are being installed in cities, first of all, lithium-ion batteries are literally everywhere. Like I have two inches from my face right now on my computer. We have them literally everywhere in our lives right now. The danger is, I think when you think about what a battery is doing on an e-bike or a scooter, it's getting jostled through the streets of New York and giant potholes, it's going to suffer a lot of wear and tear, especially if it has faulty wiring or other connections that aren't quite secure.

In something like a rooftop solar situation, you're not going to have to worry about the same concerns, especially if it's what a lot of batteries are doing with these systems are moving to, what's called a solid-state battery, and that's much less volatile. It's a completely different situation when you're looking at safety for overheating, and other things to do with the grid near your house.

Brian Lehrer: Derek in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Derek.

Derek: Hi. Good morning. Thanks for taking my call. I think I was off the air while I was holding and I caught a piece of the lady, I guess, she's talking now, but--

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Alissa Walker from Curbed, yes.

Derek: The issue is not the bikes, the issue is the batteries. Lithium-ion batteries have an anode and a diode. In a lithium-ion battery construction, there's a thin layer, they usually use polymer, like a little plastic layer between the two chemicals. If the barrier is broken or severed, and two chemical is touched, a fire erupts. It can happen in a cell phone, it can happen on a scooter, it can happen in a car. I'm big on battery research. I'm with Earth Science Minor, and I've been studying this stuff for a while.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have any solutions to recommend? Oh, go ahead, what was it you are going to-- Take your time.

Derek: I hesitated to say this on air.

[crosstalk]

On the internet, about four years ago, I was watching some videos, where some kids were experimenting, and they found out how easy the fires were to create. They would take an axe to a battery from a cell phone, and show boom, a big ball of fire. My point is, the solution, if I can say this is, is to get away from lithium-ion. That stuff is very dangerous if chemicals touch each other. The reason why it's happening in scooters and bikes is I think the lady was saying before me, that in New York, the bikes and scooters get beat up a lot.

The other issue that nobody's talking about is in a car, my father's auto mechanic and my grandfather, and I was in my early part of my life, in a car, you have what they call voltage regulator that regulates the recharging of the battery in the car, the lead acid batteries, but you can overcharge that lead acid battery, where actually expound fumes [unintelligible 00:13:26] of an acid vapor. To stop that to have a voltage regulator so that when the battery comes charged, it cuts off the current going through the battery. They don't have that in the smaller devices.

[crosstalk]

Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: Derek, thank you for lending your engineering expertise. Alissa, his simple solution, beyond all the technical knowledge that he imparted was, use something other than lithium-ion batteries. Probably easier said than done, but are there any alternatives for e-bikes that you're aware of?

Alissa Walker: There are. There's a couple of different types of batteries, and this is one of the recommendations actually of the safe recharging coalition for this battery swap. There's a lithium iron phosphate battery. I hope I got that right, LFP. That's another. Again, moving towards a solid-state battery, this is a technical terms that we don't need to go into this morning on the radio, but these are safer standards.

Also, something else that he pointed out that was really important is, a lot of these more sophisticated, more expensive chargers, they do shut off at a certain time. Once the battery is charged, they turn off and that's what's happened in a lot of places as the people leave them charged overnight, they get overheated and they spark a fire. All these solutions are moving to more expensive solutions, but they're safer solutions.

Brian Lehrer: One more caller. John in Long Island City, a dog walker, you're on WNYC. Hi, John.

John: Hi. Thank you. Yes, my name is John. Thank you for taking my call, Brian. Long-time listener, second-time caller. I'm actually calling because I know you guys are talking about e-bikes and how they start fires. At the beginning of the segment, y'all mentioned, you mentioned, Brian, or began to mention how the cityscape has changed. That is actually 100% or 120% the truth.

As a dog walker, I just wanted to mention how the people who ride these bikes were very inconsiderate and they ride on the sidewalk, similar to speed that cars drive. As a dog walker trying to do my job every day, I just wanted to bring to the attention that the delivery drivers are important, but they're being super inconsiderate. When you call them out on it, they're very dismissive, because as a regular pedestrian, you don't have the authority to say, "Hey, you need to slow down, you're going to hurt someone." I just wanted to get that out there because there's somebody that works on the street every single day. We need to coexist, and we don't need to be zooming across the sidewalk at the speed of a car. Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: John, thank you very much. In a previous segment recently, we talked about city statistics that many hundreds of injuries have been caused this year in crashes, I think of particularly e-scooters, which are a little different than e-bikes, but in the same general category. Ross, I wonder as somebody who's reported on New York streets for a long time and Alissa, is there a way to respect the delivery workers and make the streets safer for dog walkers and all other pedestrians from these vehicles that are sometimes associated with them?

I think when The City was discussing a few years ago whether e-bikes should be totally banned at all, there was an uprising in support of the delivery workers, and I get that, but we could still take calls all day from people like our last caller in Long Island City, who experienced the bikes as much less predictable than cars, which we know cause more deaths and injuries but which generally do obey red lights and drive only in the direction that the streets allowed and don't jump onto the sidewalks. There's the pedestrian experience out there. Any thoughts?

Ross Barkan: Yes. It's a very chaotic streetscape right now, and there's no doubt cars are the bigger threat. Cars are dangerous, cars could kill people. I do believe that we need less cars in New York City. That all being said, my experience, many people I talked to, it is very true that you have e-bikes going 20 miles an hour, 25 miles an hour, hitting sidewalks, going the wrong way, and they're not killing pedestrians, but they are making pedestrians unsafe. I do worry that pedestrians are always at the bottom of the pecking order.

Your question is a really good one. I really think what's being missed here and this point was raised really well by Nicole Gelinas at the New York Post is, why is it up to the city and state to subsidize the delivery industries. You have GrubHub, you have Uber Eats, you have all of these enormous, very well-funded, if not profitable companies that created an industry pretty much overnight.

For decades in New York City, Brian, as you know, ordering out food was pretty simple. You had restaurants near your apartment, you had their menus, you call them up on the phone, someone came on a pedal bike and gave you your food and you tip the guy, and that was it. All of a sudden, in the 2010s, it became, I can get any type of food at any time of night 15 miles, 10 miles from my apartment. Is that the way a city or society should be set up? That's a bigger question.

My view here is that, it's up to these app companies to really pay for the bikes, they should be paying for the bikes, they should be paying for the insurance. Construction workers, if they're injured or if they die, there are benefits paid out to the families. A radiology technician as the [unintelligible 00:19:19] pointed out, they don't bring their x-ray machines home, why is the delivery bike worker have to bring back a dangerous bike and then charge it in their apartment?

Brian Lehrer: Those companies maybe should pay for a safer generation of batteries too. Alissa, last thought from you on the same big-picture question.

Alissa Walker: Yes, I think that that is a great opportunity. Some of these companies did chime in at this hearing and submit testimony previously, but also, the city really does need to step up because where are you going to store the bikes, you're going to have to look for storefronts, or old garages, Gale Brewer said she was canvassing her district to try to find places where bikes can be stored.

The public charging too needs to be a priority, there's kiosk, they're going to take over outside of City Hall where deliveries can take breaks and maybe top up their batteries, if you can't fully charge it. You think of all the stuff that the city is doing to make electric car charging more accessible throughout the city, there's not that same effort when it comes to bike charging and parking and they need to double down on that.

Brian Lehrer: Alissa Walker from Curbed who has an article called Don't Blame the E-Bike. Ross Barkan, who has a Crain's column called, Delivery Workers Bear the Brunt of E-Bike Fires. Thank you both so much.

Ross Barkan: Thank you

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