Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. If you were browsing pictures of adoptable cats recently, thinking about, I don't know, where you might be able to discreetly put a litter box in your little apartment or something like that, you might've noticed a big yellow notice on the animal care centers of New York City's website. They are closed for cat intake. They're at capacity for cats.

Now, The New York Times, the news organization The City, and our own newsroom have all reported on an increase in the number of cats being surrendered to shelters and the growing population of feral cats around the city. Here to explain some of the reasons for this and also offer some solutions is Will Zweigart, the executive director of Flatbush Cats, a cat rescue organization in Brooklyn obviously, Flatbush Cats. Will, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Will Zweigart: Thank you, Brian. Excited to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Do we know the numbers? Do we know how many cats there are in shelters and on the streets in New York City? We do so many conversations here these days about how many humans are in shelters in New York City. What about cats?

Will Zweigart: I'm going to give you the honest answer. No one has cared enough to find out.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. You have an estimate?

Will Zweigart: The estimate is over 500,000 cats.

Brian Lehrer: What?

Will Zweigart: Yes, exactly. That's the reaction that we all should have. The New York Times did their first feature on this crisis in over a decade in June. Just google "New York Times Flatbush Cats," and you can read an in-depth feature about why are there so many cats out here and why are shelters consistently overcrowded. It all stems from a lack of upstream action. We're not spaying and neutering enough cats and dogs. A lot of New Yorkers, actually, more than 50% of New Yorkers, can't afford a basic vet visit. If you follow the trail, it's actually pretty clear why we have so many cats suffering outside and in overcrowded shelters.

Brian Lehrer: I think depending on where someone lives, they may have never seen a feral cat in the city. Where are they? Do they tend to be in certain parks, certain places?

Will Zweigart: 1,000%. I've been a lifelong cat lover, obviously. I've lived in New York for quite some time. I didn't experience this crisis firsthand until my partner and I moved to Flatbush in Central Brooklyn around 2016. Yes, you can be a cat lover. You can be a New Yorker. You can also be fully unaware of this problem because it largely exists in the margins. If you were to track intake, we did a FOIL request and worked with ACC to basically track every cat surrender over the last five years, over 20,000 surrenders.

Brian Lehrer: Wait, let me just jump in on that point. Because for people who don't know FOIL, that's a Freedom of Information Law. That's what it stands for. Freedom of Information Law, FOIL. You did a FOIL request. Does that mean that the city is supposed to keep numbers or incident reports for cats turned over to animal shelters?

Will Zweigart: Animal Care Centers of New York is the city-run shelter. It's an independent organization that's funded by the city. They do an excellent job with an impossible situation. They do have meticulous records of the animals that are basically washing up on their shores every single day. We reached out. They provided this information. We're a very small nonprofit, so I wish we had a data and research team. We do not. We mapped out each of these intakes by ZIP code.

You can pretty clearly see a direct tie to the socioeconomic status of that area. If an area has lower household income, you're going to have significantly more cats on the street. You're going to have significantly higher intake to shelters. To answer your question, if you live in Manhattan, no, you're not seeing feral cats. They literally are not easily found, if at all, in Manhattan. We've taken several media representatives around the block with us in Flatbush and they're everywhere. Outer boroughs, this is a major issue. It's certainly not limited to Flatbush or just Brooklyn

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, have you had to give up your cat to a shelter recently for one reason or another? We'll get more deeply into the reasons that the cat shelters are at capacity right now and they're not always, or have you noticed an increase in stray cats in your neighborhood, whether or not you yourself are a cat owner, or are you thinking about adopting? 212-433-WNYC on any of those things or anything else related. 212-433-9692. Call or text us at that number or tweet @BrianLehrer for Will Zweigart, executive director of Flatbush Cats. Let's take a feral cat's observation from Cindy in Central Harlem. Cindy, you're on WYNC. Thank you for calling in.

Cindy: Hi. Thank you. Well, it's not quite true there are not stray or at least, say, feral cats in Manhattan. There certainly are in Upper Harlem, but we also have several feral cat colonies here, which are well-maintained. One specifically in the Joseph Daniel Wilson Memorial Garden in Central Harlem. I have my other radio one, so that's probably not a good thing. Is that interfering?

Brian Lehrer: It's a little bit noisy in the background because it's on a ten-second delay, so turn it off if you can. Go ahead.

Cindy: I'm sorry. Yes, I will. I just wanted to definitely put in a plug for feral cat colonies if they're well-maintained or has been here since, oh my goodness, about 2000. We have some wonderful people who care a lot about the environment and about feral cats. They keep them spayed and neutered as they come. I will say this. It does a fantastic job with rodent control.

I think the Department of Health will tell you that cats don't help for rodents. That's in their workshops and whatever. We know they do. We know they are a major deterrent. However, one cat in my backyard is not going to patrol all of my neighbors' rodent situation, I would say that. Basically, I just wanted to mention this. Because I think if there are more people willing to adopt a feral cat colony, that would be certainly helpful in perhaps many ways.

Brian Lehrer: Cindy, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, let's follow up on Cindy's call, Will. First of all, she uses the word "colony," is that right? Do feral cats form colonies? Is that the right word?

Will Zweigart: Let's talk about some terms and then I'll get to that question, that topic. We use the term "community cats" often because community cats could include any outdoor cat, whether it's a friendly-owned cat that has outdoor privileges, even though they should not, because cats are an invasive species and they decimate birds and other wildlife that are native to New York. That also includes, as she noted, feral cats.

Just so that we're all clear on the definition, feral cats are completely unsocialized and do not want to be around people. That's why outdoors are their home. Yes, colony is an appropriate term for that. Colony caretaking is something that we at Flatbush Cats actively do. We have a large community-based volunteer network that when we start a project on a block, we will trap at the colony level. Let me explain TNR really quick.

Trap-neuter-return is when you humanely trap feral cats, bring them in for spay/neuter services, vaccinations, and other basic care so that they don't reproduce further. Then you return them back outside again because they're feral. They don't want to live inside. They can't live inside. The challenge is in around rodent control is that's actually a sanitation problem. I'm sure you've talked about this on your show. Rodents are a symptom of a sanitation issue because New York City has an incredibly outdated approach to just handling the tons of trash that are sitting and piled up on our sidewalk.

That's actually not a cat's job. Our mission and our goal from Flatbush Cats' perspective is for there to be no cats on the street and no cats waiting around in overcrowded shelters. We were formed a couple of years ago for the specific purpose of accomplishing those two goals. We are focused almost exclusively on upstream efforts, things that are going to actually solve the problem of having so many thousands of cats outside and having shelters completely overcrowded.

We typically don't engage in conversations about rodent control because, A, I think research shows that while the presence of cats may be a mild deterrent to mice, rats are like 10 times the size of an average mouse. Cats are smart enough not to engage in a conflict with a New York City rat. The research actually bears out that, no, they're not super helpful there. Again, it's actually not their job.

Brian Lehrer: The central question. If the Animal Care Centers of New York City are at capacity for cats and closed for intake of cats, is that unusual and why is it happening now?

Will Zweigart: Thanks for asking that. We need to understand, this is not new. This is a decades-old crisis. We've been talking about how shelters have been full for years and years because they have been. We can talk about what's happening right now and we can talk about the shorter-term effects of COVID and adoption boom. We should definitely talk about the broader affordability crisis that is driving surrenders, but the starting point should be that this is a decades-long issue in New York City.

When you have a lack of investment or even acknowledgment of a problem for that long, you even kicking the can down the road for that long, there are no longer any immediate fixes available. New York City has traditionally underinvested in animal welfare and traditionally not met its moral, ethical, or fiduciary obligations for the animals that are in New York City, whether it's cats and dogs outside or whether it's providing support to residents who need help caring for their pet so they don't have to surrender it.

We're going to have to look at upstream solutions like significantly increasing our investment at a citywide level towards spay/neuter services so that we can provide relief downstream for shelters. Because why does a shelter exist? They're a safety net. We are asking the safety net, these hardworking folks at shelters across the city. Believe me, they have one of the most difficult jobs in animal welfare.

I'm a huge advocate for the employees and the volunteers at ACC. We are asking them to shoulder this burden and we are asking thousands of individual rescuers and nonprofit groups like us to shoulder this burden because the city, to date, and this will change, to date has just not invested anywhere near where they need to, to acknowledge this problem.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a pandemic-related aspect of perhaps a surge in adoptions when people were staying home all the time, and now a surge in surrenders based on economics?

Will Zweigart: Yes. I will say again that this is not a pandemic-specific issue, but yes, the big news story around this in 2020 was a surge in adoptions, and that was a factor. We are at a record high nationally in terms of pet ownership. I think we're around 70% of adult households have a pet and that is wild. What we're talking about here today, this is not a niche issue.

When we talk about affordability and the fact that 50% of pet owners in the US can no longer afford a basic vet visit, that's not a niche issue. This is a massive, massive problem that's affecting our family members around the country. There was a big spike and the data did not show an increase in surrenders specifically because of-- Well, if you just look at what the intake data says, why are you surrendering your pet?

ACC says that the top two reasons are, "I can no longer financially afford to care for my pet," and we need to really listen to that and look into that. Two, "I'm having issues with housing. The apartment that I can afford doesn't allow pets." We need to take action on both of those fronts immediately in order to have a different outcome next year. Otherwise, we'll be talking the same time next year. Shelters will still be overcrowded.

Brian Lehrer: What action?

Will Zweigart: The first thing we need to do is dramatically increase funding for spay/neuter. I am talking about at a citywide level. As a listener right now, you should know that that is a collective action that you can participate in right now. When you're an animal lover and you're concerned about these problems, typically, what you're told is to take individual actions. Foster, adopt, volunteer, those are all important.

Flatbush Cats does all of those things. We're rescuing cats right now. At this moment, we're rescuing a sick cat that has been out on the sidewalk for two weeks. We're fostering cats. We're adopting cats. We're doing all those things. We had to acknowledge that if we really want to solve this problem, we need to start taking collective actions. One thing you can do as an individual today is you can fund spay/neuter efforts that are going to provide relief for the entire ecosystem, for shelters, for families, for rescue groups.

When you're funding spay/neuter, you may not see the immediate effect, but you are supporting the actual solution. We're building a new nonprofit spay/neuter clinic right now. We'll talk about this a little bit more. In Flatbush, we are 98% done with this clinic construction. You can go to flatbushcats.org or flatbushcats.org/build to learn about this project and actually contribute to it today to help us get our doors open.

That's an example of a collective action that you can take, knowing that you are actually part of the solution that will prevent shelters from being overcrowded in the future, and that will prevent families from having to part ways with their pet because they can't afford veterinary care. Veterinary care is the biggest spike in costs of pet ownership, and so that's an issue that we're tackling directly here.

Brian Lehrer: Will Zweigart from Flatbush Cats with us as we talk about New York City animal shelters at capacity for cats. No more room at the end for unhoused cats and the surge in unhoused cats in the city right now. Taylor in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Taylor. Thanks for calling in.

Taylor: Hey, Brian. A long-time, first-time. Thanks so much for this conversation and a lot of the other ones you have on the show to help make New York better. Yes, I adopted a senior cat from Will a little over five years ago. I just wanted to echo what he's saying about. If you want to do something individually, the best thing you can do is to help. Just donate to your local groups that are going to do TNR work. I know it's WNYC's sustaining membership program. We just donate monthly. You forget about it. I know it helps these organizations out a lot.

Brian Lehrer: Taylor, thank you very much. Necca in Riverdale in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hello, Necca.

Necca: Hi, Brian. I just wanted to plug Paul The Cat Guy. He's based in Queens. He's been open since 2014. He performs TNR, kitten rescue, adoptions, and rehoming of abandoned adult cats. We were able to get our kitten through his service about five years ago. His name is Sebastian.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. You're saying Paul The Cat Guy, who I don't know about, catches cats, spays them, and sells them, so you bought a cat rather than just adopted a cat?

Necca: We did purchase the cat. We purchased Sebastian for, I think, approximately $100. The cat was spayed before we-- The $100 covered the spaying actually.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I see.

Necca: Sorry. The neutering. Excuse me.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Necca, thank you. Is that a good model in your opinion, Will?

Will Zweigart: In terms of rescue?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, in terms of rescue. I know somebody who got a dog recently. They happened to buy the dog. They felt like they needed to explain the fact that they bought a dog rather than just got one from a shelter, a rescue dog.

Will Zweigart: Got it. I think you've heard, "Adopt, don't shop," for decades. What she described is adopting from a local rescue. We have 100 foster cats in our care right now. Just Flatbush Cats and we're just one group. She mentioned there are a lot of organizations, independent folks just doing whatever they can to rescue cats. Every single time that a rescue is taking a cat off the street, providing medical care, and adopting them, they are keeping that cat out of the shelter.

ACC has capacity for about 285 cats in their entire system. We have a more than a third of those cats just in our foster program. The problem is much larger than just what a shelter can house. Is it something good to do? Yes, 100%. If you're thinking about adopting, you should absolutely either adopt from your local shelter or a local rescue organization. No question. Because I know the passion runs deep for animals, we owe it to these animals to understand the problem.

That is why we exist because we cannot rescue our way out of this problem. We cannot foster or adopt our way out of this problem. We're going to be here rescuing cats for 100 years if we don't go upstream and actually increase funding for spay/neuter. That's why even as a small organization, we had to acknowledge that what we were doing was not going to solve the problem, so we pivoted.

We said, "You know what? There's a huge gap of affordability for veterinary care in Flatbush, in Central Brooklyn." Actually, across the city, as I'm sure your listeners will tell you. You know what? We're going to build a nonprofit veterinary clinic so we can get to the root of the issue. We hired two full-time vets. We have a staff of 10 amazing folks.

The entire model is focused on people and their pets and providing affordable spay/neuter services and other basic wellness care because I don't want to live in a world where pet ownership is a privilege for the few. I think that's ridiculous. We have to really channel the passion that we have for our own animals towards collective action so that other families can enjoy that same love and companionship.

Brian Lehrer: Here's an amazing story that just came in on Twitter. Listener writes, "Over the last five weeks, I have contacted 150 and more shelters and cat sanctuaries in a 600-mile radius of Rockland County for 33 cats in a condemned home. Found two amazing, well-funded, no-kill shelters upstate, but 11 cats still waiting on spaces to open. All shelters way over capacity." Wow, contacting 150 shelters and cat sanctuaries within a 600-mile radius of around here after finding 33 cats in a condemned home in Rockland. That is some story. We're going to get one more caller in here with a policy note. Susan in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Susan.

Susan: Hi. Yes, thank you very much. I want to just urge viewers who vote in New York to please support a bill that was introduced by Linda Rosenthal in the assembly. There's a Senate version by James Skoufis up in-- I don't know if he's in Dutchess, but he's upstate slightly. It concerns regulation of the pet insurance industry. With pet insurance, if it were affordable and if the types of things that were always considered pre-existing were not permitted to be a basis for denial, it really helped owners.

That way, spread the risk, have every animal insured with whatever costs there are, and try to make it more affordable. I can certainly understand the thousands and thousands of dollars for basically surgical procedures. A lot of things are not covered in many policies. Have a look at this bill. If you want the number-- I don't know what the number was, but this past year was 800258 in the assembly and F03570 in the Senate. Again, Rosenthal, assembly. Skoufis, Senate. It would be very helpful.

It would also be helpful in my view to try to have something like the HCC system for animal welfare. Have a regular system of state and local-funded veterinary clinics that could be managed by residents who could perhaps reduce their extremely-heavy vet school debt. If they were overseen by people from Cornell or even perhaps New Penn, the other schools, there are a lot of possibilities. The adoption rate during the pandemic, of course, aggravates it. It's just terribly expensive to own a pet and people don't always understand it. Thank you very much.

Brian Lehrer: Susan, thank you. Thank you very much. Very detailed, very systemic look at policy, and some of the things that are needed. Will, I give you the last word here. Of course, when Susan says pet insurance, she's talking about health insurance for pets, right?

Will Zweigart: Yes, it doesn't sound like we have time to get into that too much, but I'll just ask listeners, how has the insurance system worked out for you? I think we have an absolutely terrible system right now with health insurance for people. It's devastating for folks. Certainly not a model that I would want to see followed in the veterinary care space. I just want folks to know. You're tuning into the show because you care about the substantive issues and not just the surface level. I want you to know that this is a solvable problem. It is. I was working in advertising, I actually used to work on this block for an advertising agency.

When I learned how we can solve this, I quit my job to build the solution, which is to make veterinary care more affordable and accessible for everyone. Just think about how that feels. Doesn't that feel good to think about all of your neighbors and your community members being able to afford that love and companionship, not having to give up pets or abandon them outside because you can't afford to care for your pet? It feels good. It's right. It's the right thing to do. We're building the solution right now. I'm going to invite everyone to be a part of it. Visit us at flatbushcats.org/build. Help us get this clinic open. Because if we can do it here, we can do it anywhere.

Brian Lehrer: Will Zweigart, the executive director of Flatbush Cats. Thanks so much.

Will Zweigart: Thank you, Brian.

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