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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. In case you missed it, Governor Hochul signed the Clean Slate Act, which allows about two million people convicted of crimes in New York State to have their records cleared after a period of time so they can more easily find employment, and housing, and educational opportunities, et cetera. Advocates of the law are touting this as a victory for racial and economic justice as well as public safety. On the other hand, it's easy to see how clearing the criminal records or hiding them of the formerly incarcerated falls right into the narrative of Democrats being soft on crime that nearly landed a Republican in the governor's mansion and essentially flip the House of Representatives.

Joining us now to take us into the details of the Clean Slate Act and explain why he advocated for a law like this and sponsored it is Zellnor Myrie, New York State senator and Elections Committee chair, representing central Brooklyn. We'll also take a look at some other news coming out of Albany in the past few days, including Governor Hochul directing all of the State University of New York campuses to bring disciplinary action if anybody calls for genocide against the Jews. That, of course, relates to the hearing with the three elite private school presidents in Washington last week. We'll talk about that as a separate segment later in the show as well.

Governor Hochul also vetoed another bill meant to bring transparency to the political process. We've got a lot on the table. Senator Myrie, welcome back to the Brian Lehrer Show.

Zellnor Myrie: It's a pleasure to be with you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Clean Slate Act first, it'll allow about two million people convicted of crimes in New York State to have their records "cleared" is the language that I'm seeing. Is "cleared" the right word?

Zellnor Myrie: The legal term is "sealed". There are some significant differences between clearing, sealing, and expungement. Sealing is important because the records while sealed for housing purposes or educational purposes, for law enforcement purposes, remain fully accessible as opposed to clearing or expungement.

Brian Lehrer: What does the Clean Slate Act do?

Zellnor Myrie: This is one of the most important pieces of legislation, certainly that I have passed, but I believe that the state legislature has passed in a very long time, and here's why. 2.3 million New Yorkers as you referenced, Brian, but those New Yorkers also have families, they also have communities that they had been unable to successfully reintegrate into because even after doing the time, even after paying the consequence for their crime, society has turned their back on them at every turn.

If you are a New Yorker that was convicted of a crime, and now you have come back into the community after serving your sentence, and you're trying to get a job, or you're trying to get housing, or you're trying to get financial aid for school, currently, the system said, you are going to pay in perpetuity for that crime regardless of whether or not you have served your sentence. What Clean Slate does, is automatically seal certain convictions, they're convictions that will never be eligible for this type of sealing, convictions related to sex offenses, what we call A-1 felonies which are some of the more egregious offenses that come to the public's mind.

For many of the convictions, they will be eligible for sealing only after a certain period of time post your release from any sort of government supervision. If you were convicted of a misdemeanor, that time is three years, if you were convicted of a felony, that time is eight years. What we have seen, even before the law has come into full effect is a coalition unlike anything that we have built in Albany recently. To your point, around what the politics around this is, we were cognizant that many people thought that we cannot get anything done in this space because of what the politics may be, but instead of despairing, we went to work.

We spoke to leaders in the business community. We spoke to leaders in the labor community, leaders in the faith community, employment community, and we all came together to get Clean Slate done. To me, it's not just a demonstration of the ability to get a hard bill done, but really as New Yorkers, we had the ability to have tough conversations and to do hard things together.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report the story. Anybody out there right now who has a criminal conviction that could be sealed thanks to the Clean Slate Act after three years for a misdemeanor, after eight years for a felony, 212-433-WNYC. Tell us your story if anybody listening has such a story of how your conviction has affected your ability to participate in society, 212-433-WNYC. Has it affected your ability to get a job? To get housing? To go to school? Anything else? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. If this is personal to you, tell us your story or to anyone you know, for that matter, or anyone else who has a question about this and anything else relevant to State Senator Zellnor Myrie from central Brooklyn.

We'll even touch on the reports that he may be considering a run from the left to primary Mayor Adams in 2025. Your calls and texts for Zellnor Myrie, at 212-433-WNYC 433-9692. Senator, I want to linger on those timelines for a minute, because I think they're really important to the story and for people's understanding of the law. You don't get your record sealed right away. It takes three years past a certain point for a misdemeanor, eight years past a certain point for a felony. Could you explain again and in a little more detail when those clocks start?

Zellnor Myrie: No problem. Let's take a hypothetical, you were convicted of a misdemeanor, you served your sentence on that, and you walk out of the correctional facility, not under parole or any community supervision, but truly done with the sentence. From that period, you would then have three years before you are eligible for automatic sealing. It's important to note here that during that waiting period, that three-year period post release, if you are charged with arrested, convicted of a crime, that clock starts over again.

This bill and now law, is also a public safety incentive because if you are out and you know that you will be eligible in three or eight years, depending on the nature of the condition, you have every incentive to stay out of trouble. You have every incentive to be as involved with opportunities as possible. This is across the country, that waiting periods vary in the time, but this has been the model. We're the 12th state in the country to pass Clean Slate. I am of course, biased in thinking New York's is the best version, but that's what the time periods look like. That's what the requirements would be and hopefully, will provide the structure for many, many, many New Yorkers to walk into opportunity.

Brian Lehrer: I think somebody has a personal story about this. Let's take Pete in, I'm not sure what I'm seeing-- Oh, you're in Pawling in Westchester, right? Hi, Pete, you're in WNYC.

Pete: No. Hi, this is Pete. Pawling is in Dutchess, actually but right in the corner. I did three years in Mid-State prison in New York State, and finished my time, finished my parole, and moved to California. I lost over four jobs in California because of my license and nothing like-- Wasn't with kids, the reality was construction. [unintelligible 00:08:42] was cleaning up, whatever. Actually, I would be called, sometimes 24 hours before the job started, and they said, "Sorry, we checked your record and you can't work." I was living in California, and it's so expensive, so I had to move back home, to be in New York, with my mom, and she was getting sick anyway, so it made more sense.

As a felon, what I do and what you do are two different things. I would go to jail for almost anything, you know what I mean? Because of that felony, literally anything. Arguing, whatever, because that's how people look at people that have been in prison. It's very personal to me.

Brian Lehrer: Pete, thank you very much. Senator, you can hear the anguish in his voice and presumably, paying the price a long time after he "went clean".

Zellnor Myrie: Firstly, Pete, thank you for sharing your story, and congratulations for turning your life around. These are the stories that motivated us to pass this bill. I have, as you know, Brian, I represent central Brooklyn, and we have had our public safety challenges here in central Brooklyn, and every time that I have gone out to the aftermath of a tragedy, whether that is a shooting or some other violent incident, and you talk to the individuals that are in and around that violence, they talk to me and they say, "Ze, I don't want to be out here on the street. I don't want to be involved in some of these wayward activities, but I have no other opportunity. I have a kid to feed and I have rent to pay."

My hope is that what Clean Slate will do is provide not just a job, not just some educational opportunities or housing, but hope. Because as you heard from Pete, his story is like many, many other stories. People who have been turned away from it, every single corner, and yet we are imploring them to do the right thing, to stay off the streets, to not be a threat to public safety. Let's give them a job. Let's give them a house. Let's give them some education, or at least the opportunity to do so to the benefit of the entire community.

Brian Lehrer: After three years following, paying their price for a misdemeanor, eight years after paying their price for a felony, here's another story, I think, like that. Leonard in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Leonard.

Leonard: How are you doing, Brian, long time. This is the first-time caller. First, I wanted to say that I did 20 years in New York State prisons, and Brian, your show was really vital to keep me connected to community. I want to thank you for that, number 1.

Brian Lehrer: That makes me feel very good. Thank you.

Leonard: Number 2, I've been out here for more than 10 years, and I think this Clean Slate Act is going to really, really help a lot of people including myself. There are certain certifications that you need, ethics checks for to get in other certain industries like finance and insurance. Automatically having your felonies clean is going to help a lot entering the job market in Brooklyn.

Brian Lehrer: Leonard, thank you very much. I'm going to go right to somebody else's story. Here's Nathan in Port Chester, which actually is in Westchester County. Hi, Nathan. You're on WNYC.

Nathan: I'm actually in Port Jeff Station.

Brian Lehrer: Oh.

Nathan: Yes, me, too, I'm in the same boat. I have a conviction for selling drugs. I've been trying to get better jobs, but because I have that conviction, it holds me back. New York's a very expensive state. I think eight years is actually too long even. I think they should make it less time if possible because I'm a very smart person. I'm not like some idiot out here. I could get a job. I could be very successful if I was allowed back into society, but I've had to get dead-end jobs and lower-paying jobs to try and survive in New York which is one of the most [inaudible 00:12:42] in the country.

Brian Lehrer: Nathan, do you have any stories of how this has gone for you? Is it anything like our first caller who said you are about to be hired for a job, or he was about to be hired for several jobs, and then they did that last background check and they said, "No, sorry, we see you have a criminal conviction. You're out." Anything like that happen to you?

Nathan: That actually happened to me recently. It was actually a job with Optimum Online. I did great during the interview process. They loved me, and then they see that I sold drugs and all of a sudden everyone just turns the other way and just doesn't want anything to do with me.

Brian Lehrer: Nathan, good luck out there. Thank you very much for checking in. We have no shortage of these stories on the board. We're not going to have time to just keep going and going and going, but we see just from our callers, and we've already heard from a small handful of them, Senator, that this is a big thing that affects people's lives dramatically.

Zellnor Myrie: It's a big deal, Brian. Nathan, I also wish you good luck, and hopefully, the Clean Slate will be helpful. I think you're seeing in real-time that we have to do some recalibrating as a state and as a city about how we treat our most vulnerable, how we treat various constituencies. For too long, these individuals have had to operate in the shadows. At the same time, we have been undergoing threats to our public safety challenges there. We have a lot of politics surrounding what it means for our communities to be safe. At least there's commentary in that direction.

Here we have a pretty straightforward and simple solution that you are not the worst thing that you've ever done, that we have a gap in the workforce. The business leaders who supported this including various chambers of commerce, JP Morgan, the Business Council of New York, the Partnership for New York, and many, many others, they supported this because they need the workers. They need people like Nathan. They need people like Pete. They need people like Leonard who called in. This is so vital for our economic success. I'm really glad that it also has this redemption theme as well.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Myrie taking notes, remembering the names of all three callers in this segment so far. [chuckles] Did you have Republican support in the legislature? You didn't need it because there's a Democratic super-majority these days in both the Assembly and the Senate, but for some of the reasons that you were laying out including business community support, employer community support, did you have bipartisan support?

Zellnor Myrie: We didn't have Republicans vote for Clean Slate here in New York on the record, but I'll note that some of the other states like Utah and Michigan that are not known as bastions of progressive legislation also have their own versions where they did enjoy some bipartisan support. As I mentioned, we're the 12th state to do it. This has been done in several states in the South as well, but I'll make a note here as well, Brian. We didn't get bipartisan support for Clean Slate, but the governor just signed into law something that we also sponsored called the Fair Access to Victim Compensation Act.

What that bill and now law does is removes the requirement for victims and survivors of crime to have to report to the police in order to receive compensation. Whether or not an individual has spoken to a cop should not be dispositive on whether they get compensation from the state. On that bill, we had every single Republican in the Senate vote in favor, 60 to 0, and the governor just signed that in law. Another public safety effort that I think is demonstrative of our ability to talk to whomever we need to talk to in order to get the best deal for New Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: Tell me, tell everybody more about that bill. What kinds of situations would be involved there? If somebody is a victim of a crime but doesn't report it to the police, does that mean the perpetrators would not even have been arrested and convicted in this case for the victims to get some kind of compensation from the state?

Zellnor Myrie: Even removing the fate of the perpetrator entirely from the equation, what the current law had required is that for you to be eligible for victim compensation, that you would've had to produce a police report as evidence of crime happening. Now, we know that in many communities, the ability for an individual to approach law enforcement has been complicated for a lot of reasons. We know that in effect, the research showed us that Black and brown victims were nine times less likely to get their applications for compensation approved because they had not gone to the police. They do not feel comfortable doing this.

What our law does, and this is with major, major hats off to organizations like Common Justice in many of our gun safety groups working with victims of violence, and that includes domestic violence. What this does is say there are other ways for you to demonstrate that a crime happens that you experienced harm, ways in which you may feel more comfortable doing to then allow you to have access to this compensation. These are things for like cost, funeral, transportation, loss of wage, et cetera. The things that you need, the wraparound services you need in the wake of probably what's the worst thing that's ever happened to you in your life.

We were able to pass that bill, removing the reporting requirement to police with support from Republicans who have at least politically opposed anything that even touched this area. I think it speaks to the potency of the issue, and that is if you are a victim or a survivor of a crime, you should be able to access those resources regardless of your ability to talk to law enforcement. We all care about keeping the public safe. Clean Slate is a public safety bill, fair access to victim compensation that is a public safety bill. This notion that Democrats do not care about public safety or that we do not care about victims and survivors is patently false.

I think what we have been able to do certainly in these areas is a demonstration that we have the ability to talk to everybody in our community.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take one more caller with a story of how the Clean Slate Act might affect them. Adrian in Bed-Stuy, you're on WNYC. Hello, Adrian.

Adrian: Hi, Brian. It's a pleasure to be with you this morning. To just jump right in, I heard the other callers. It sounded like pretty severe crimes that they were serving time, or I think I heard drug dealing, and I wanted to mention mine, which were very minor. All misdemeanors, never spent any time in prison. That still feels like kept me years and years from career progression. As you mentioned, one of those callers how it worked, I'd started a place, this happened twice and maybe a week in or 10 days in, my background, I'd been checked, and I'd be dismissed once when I was trying to get my substitute teachers license. Again, none of my crimes have anything to do with children or violence, possession, stuff like that.

I took the course, which is run by the school system, and then after taking and paying for the course, I was told that I couldn't get verified for that because of my past. I'm not sure if it has to do with-- maybe they think it's poor judgment as opposed to just the crimes outright. Oh, this person has been making bad decisions, and not necessarily that they're going to do something like that here. I don't know. I don't regret it because I like where I am now, but I did have to go work in the family business because that's one I could rely on and go back to school to get my master's, let some time pass until my credentials looked better than what happened eight years ago.

Brian Lehrer: Adrian, thank you for your story. I think it's important, Senator, because he gives an example, and he made this point very clearly at the beginning of this call, you could have been convicted of some very minor things, and still had it affect your professional prospects for the rest of your life.

Zellnor Myrie: It's exactly right. Thank you, Adrian, for sharing your story, and congrats on your success. One in seven New Yorkers have a conviction record, Brian. That means that we all know someone that has one. They just have not disclosed that to you perhaps, but this is something that many of us are walking around with. It runs the gamut of what the nature of that conviction was, and so the automatic nature of this was very important to us. It's not as if New York does not have any means to seal records right now. The problem is individuals who were eligible for that only 0.05% had taken advantage of it since the law was put on the books in 2017. This is going, I think, to be a sweeping change for opportunity for so many of us.

Brian Lehrer: I want to touch a couple of other issues before we run out of time in about five minutes. A bill that did not make it past the governor's desk would have "required organizations to disclose what they're spending and which lobbyists they're hiring when they advocate for or against a gubernatorial nominee", that's how Gothamist describes it. If people are spending money on a candidate in an election, there are certain kinds of disclosure laws, but if the governor nominates a controversial person as something, I think this all stems from her controversial nomination of Hector LaSalle earlier to be the chief judge of New York State, and ultimately you in the State Senate rejected that nomination, but people were able to make dark money campaign finance, what's the word? Contributions-

Zellnor Myrie: Contribution, correct.

Brian Lehrer: -or spend money in support of LaSalle without being identified, without their interest in the issues being identified.

Zellnor Myrie: It's unfortunate that the governor vetoed this bill. I look forward to working with the sponsor, Senator Mike Gianaris out from Queens and hoping to advance this next year. I think what this bill does and represents is people's frustration with the political process, and particularly with the influence of money in the political process. I think it's important that people know what people are spending money on and to what ends that that money is achieving the effort being put forward, but I think we also have to look at the contributions to the candidates as well. I don't think we should leave that to the side after this veto.

I sponsor a bill that would prohibit anyone bidding on a state contract from giving contributions in a certain time period. I think most New Yorkers would be shocked to know that that is not the law and that we have seen instances in the past where it is effectively people paying to have access to state contracts. I've attached that bill in the State Senate for the past couple of years. I'm hoping that we can take that up as well. It actually has the same assembly sponsor as this bill that you were asking about, Brian. I think New Yorkers expect us to hold our political actors accountable in this regard.

Brian Lehrer: It looks to me like the problem with this version might have been that it was retroactive, that people who spent on Judge LaSalle's campaign back then when the rule was that you could do it without disclosing would now be forced into the public eye retroactively, and that some of your colleagues in the legislature saw, or the governor in particular, saw that as unfair. Do you think if you had a version of this bill that wasn't retroactive and only going forward that the governor would sign it?

Zellnor Myrie: I hate to speculate on what the governor might or might not do in the future, but I certainly think that that type of amendment would open up discussions again. I'll also say that retroactivity insofar as it applies to action that has happened in the past, we're not talking about a 20-year period. We're talking about earlier this year. I don't think that that particular argument holds as much water as some of the proponents would like to argue, but I think we have an opportunity to continue the discussion early next session.

Brian Lehrer: Just a few minutes left with State Senator Zellnor Myrie of Central Brooklyn. We've been talking mostly about his Clean Slate Act which Governor Hochul has now signed. We just talked about another bill of [unintelligible 00:26:02] that he supported that Governor Hochul did not sign. Before you go, our next segment is going to be with New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg, about the resignation of the University of Pennsylvania president and other fallout from that hearing in the House on antisemitism last week in Washington.

I see that Governor Hochul, at the state level, is also cracking down on antisemitism on SUNY campuses promising "aggressive enforcement action" if discrimination laws are violated, according to CNN. She says the language that got these three university presidents who testified last week in Washington in so much trouble would not be allowed at SUNY campuses, that is calling for genocide against Jews. This also comes as 14 universities across the country are facing federal investigation by President Biden's Department of Education for actions occurring on their campuses.

No CUNY or SUNY schools are involved there, but what do you think is the right policy, and do you have any reaction to what the governor has now said?

Zellnor Myrie: I'll say that there are certain things happening in our world today that are complicated and that require a full discourse and conversation, but what we cannot have tolerance for and what cannot be subjected to legalese and discourse is hate, and antisemitism, and Islamophobia. We've seen all of those things increase in orders of magnitude since the tragedies of October 7th. I think what the governor was trying to do, and what I had been doing in my capacity as the representative of a strong and beautiful, robust, thriving Jewish community, is to, at the very least, communicate that we have your back, that we will stand unequivocally against hate of any kind, and I think that in her reiteration of what the state's human rights laws are, that she was, I think, communicating to folks that we will be there to enforce the law.

I was just at a Hanukkah celebration last night with some constituents. When people are hurting, they don't want to hear large policy pronouncements, or they don't want to hear about the third to last section of law of some random civil rights statute, what people want to know is that you're going to be there for them, that you are going to listen to them and that you are going to stand unequivocally for their protection. I will say that I've had that same conversation with the Palestinian leaders in my community, with individuals who have had to live through unimaginable pain and horror over these almost two months now. I'm going to continue to do that, and I think that's what our governor and our leaders should continue to do as well.

Brian Lehrer: Because SUNY and CUNY are public universities, is there a different standard at which the First Amendment comes into play because these are government institutions? If somebody's saying from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, or calling for Intifada revolution, that's another phrase that came up at the House hearing last week, or even, not that I think anybody has done this, so it was a hypothetical question, if somebody were to call for genocide against Jews, would that be protected free speech under the First Amendment that would make it harder for public universities like SUNY and CUNY to forbid it or discipline it?

Zellnor Myrie: Brian, I don't know the particulars on the First Amendment implications on public universities, and so I don't want to go down hypotheticals on that path. I would just reiterate that it is important for all of us in government to protect every single student, whether or not they are in a public refunded institution or not, our responsibility does not end with the school that you enrolled in. If you are a New Yorker, we have a duty to protect you and we have a responsibility to keep you safe. That's what I'm going to continue to focus on.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We have Michelle Goldberg coming up on that in just a few minutes after the news. Let me ask you one political question on your way out the door. It's been reported that you're considering a challenge from the left against Mayor Adams in a Democratic mayoral primary in 2025. Are you considering it?

Zellnor Myrie: Brian, I have been approached by a number of people asking me to run and to strongly consider running. I'll tell you who has approached me more, it has been everyday New Yorkers who are concerned that they cannot find a place to live, that they cannot afford childcare, that they have no means to send their families to after-school programming, that we are facing, I think, a true affordability crisis. Your listeners heard this last week on the reporting that the middle class and working class in the city are four times more likely to have left than the top 1%.

I just got married, I'm thinking about family and what the rest of my life is going to look like, and I can't afford a home in my very own district. I'm going to continue to focus on where most New Yorkers are focusing and that's on trying to solve this affordability crisis, trying to provide as much opportunity for our families as possible, and I'll let everybody else talk about all the other things.

Brian Lehrer: All right, maybe we'll ask you again when we get much closer to 2025. In the meantime, congratulations on your wedding, and thanks a lot for coming on. State Senator Zellnor Myrie, of Central Brooklyn. Thanks a lot.

Zellnor Myrie: Thanks so much, Brian.

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