Brian Lehrer: It's Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. I'm so happy to have with us now the journalist, author, and columnist, and podcast host, who you may know best as the former co-host of All Things Considered, Michelle Norris. She is a Washington Post columnist these days, host of the podcast Your Mama's Kitchen, and has a new book out called Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity. The book is based on her years of listening to Americans of all kinds in what Michelle has called the Race Card Project.

Many of you have heard Race Card Project segments on the station or know that it started with Michelle inviting anyone to submit six words, just six words, with your thoughts, experiences, or observations about race. Maybe you followed her work in The Post or elsewhere. Maybe you know the Race Card Project has won a Peabody Award, among many other accolades. Just a few examples Michelle has highlighted in the past, or I should say in The Washington Post, to get your imagination going before we bring her on. Six words each.

Reason I ended a sweet relationship. Too Black for Black men's love. Urban living has made me racist. Took 21 years to be Latina. Was considered white until after 9/11, and I'm only Asian when it's convenient. Some examples of the six-word phrases that Michelle has published in The Washington Post and in the book. Let's talk. Michelle, so great to have you on. Congratulations on the book and welcome back to WNYC.

Michele Norris: Thank you. It's great to be back here with you.

Brian Lehrer: Is a good place to start that before the Race Card Project, you never liked hearing people use the expression playing the race card.

Michele Norris: [laughs] I guess that's a good place to start since I named this work, I use that title for the name of the work that I do. I've always hated that term. When someone accuses you of playing the race card, they're usually asking you to stop talking. It's an elegant way to say, "Please shut up." It also is a way to avoid what we're really trying to talk about. When someone says you're playing the race card, it's not specific. It's, "Whatever it is, it's fuzzy, and I don't want you to say it anymore." I used that phrase in this case because I wanted to stoke a conversation. I wanted to ignite a conversation. Brian, I thought I was being a little bit pithy by turning that phrase on its head. Instead of saying, stop talking, I was saying, let's talk.

Brian Lehrer: Boy did it work. To remind people of the origin story of the Race Card Project a little bit, you first started this by leaving postcards in various places for people to find and perhaps fill out in return. I thought radio is old media. What did you do with postcards?

Michele Norris: [laughs] Well, people thought I was crazy when I first printed out the postcards. I went to a Kinko's in Washington, DC, and my partner at the Race Card Project, Melissa Bair, who we still work together on this, she designed them. The phrase on the front just said, "Race, your thoughts, six words, please send."

My parents were postal workers. My father's gone to glory, but my mother is still with us and will be listening to this later. Maybe it was my way to pay homage to them to support the US Postal Service when everyone else was moving on to snail mail but it just seemed like something tactile. I left them as you say, in the sugar station at the Starbucks in the back of the airline seat, where they have a little airline magazine in the sickness bag, I'd leave cards there. I left them on seats whenever I was at book festivals or book talks. Much to my surprise, people filled them out. They went and found a postage stamp. They mailed them to me.

Now, most of the submissions come in digitally today because we have a website. The digital form is useful because when they fill out that form, we have a place for them also to give us the backstory behind their six words. We understand a little bit more about why they've chosen those six words, but I still love the postcards.

Brian Lehrer: We'll get into some of what you get on the website now that people can leave six words but then also expand on them and then also interact with each other. I want to admit something. I want to admit a prediction that I would have had about your respondents that you say turned out not to be true.

My prediction would have been that the people participating at all would tend to be people of color because people of color get their race thrown in their face all the time, mostly white America. I say this as a white person, in explicit or subtle ways. They feel in touch with and interested in talking about their experiences with race. White people in general have the luxury, I would put it, of living as the majority and frankly have much less interest in talking about race, which they see as either unsettling or somehow hostile, like that phrase, playing the race card. I think your experience tells me my prediction would have been wrong.

Michele Norris: Well, it was my prediction too. You say that your prediction as a white man, my prediction as a woman of color, as a Black woman, is that as an African-American, I put the basket on the table, and I thought that people of color would be the ones to fill it up. In the 14 years that I've been doing this work, for almost all of those years, the majority of the submissions have come from white Americans, which tells me that it's not necessarily that they don't think about race or that they don't want to participate in conversations about race, which we should be honest, are usually by, for, or about people of color.

It tells me that a lot of people have bystander status. In some cases, they've chosen that. "Ooh, I don't want to talk about that. It's dangerous. It's a minefield." In some cases, they have bystander status, and they're looking at the action and wondering when they can get in and when they can have their say. This experience tells me that a lot of people actually do have something to say and are looking for a safe space to say it. We should say that the people who have submitted their stories who are white represent a full spectrum of views and perspectives.

I was surprised by the number of white respondents. I was surprised by how many of them identify as Conservative, identify as people who don't necessarily even want to talk-- They'll say, "I'm tired of this. I don't want to talk about these things. Why are we talking about race?" and they're talking about race.

There are some of the same people who would probably be in the camp of people who are fighting against so-called CRT, who are saying, "Why are we teaching this history to our children?" Yet they pulled up to the table with their story, their six words, and often a backstory. As a journalist, that has been really useful to me because in most circumstances, when we're having a conversation about race, we are usually talking about or talking to people of color.

This is the first time that I have participated in an exercise in a vertical about race or identity that had so much buy-in from white America, which makes it easier for me to see a fuller America because of it.

Brian Lehrer: Along those lines, I'll give you my six words. I thought if I'm having you on and I know what you do, I should participate. Maybe what you just said refutes this a little bit too, but my six words, and again in the context of me being, white, white male, white privilege so comfortable becomes invisible. White privilege so comfortable becomes invisible.

Michele Norris: Can we work backwards? I'm sorry, I know you're asking the questions, but I can't help but ask you about this.

Brian Lehrer: No, go. Yes, you do this for a living, too.

Michele Norris: If we worked backwards, tell me about the being invisible part.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I think that's one of the biggest barriers to equality and coming up with policies that really push equality. People in the majority often don't naturally see themselves as having a particular identity at all and can say they just see people as people. For many white people we have to become awakened, I guess I shouldn't say woke, so I'll say awakened, to the reality of different experiences of race in this country.

I think it has big implications that feed into policy arguments about race-based remedies like affirmative action for centuries of race-based deprivations. It's that white privilege so comfortable becomes invisible. A lot of white people think why does it have to inform policy in a specific way? Why does race? I'm curious for your reaction, and if anything like that has come up a lot.

Michele Norris: Well, I'm going to focus on the word privilege, because I've learned a lot about this word, listening to people, particularly white Americans because people talk about privilege in other parts of the world. We should note that we've received submissions from more than 100 countries now but the language of bias is a little bit different in other places. In America, when you talk about privilege, there are a lot of people who feel offended or ostracized by that conversation because they're like, "How am I privileged? I'm a working-class person. I have to figure out at the end of the month whether I'm going to buy new shoes for my daughter or put food on the table. Am I going to be able to buy medicine or make the mortgage and I'm privileged?"

That word, privileged, is very loaded for people. One of the things that we learned, the project, is called the Race Card Project. The subtitle of the book is Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Think About Race and Identity. I started talking about race and identity for a reason because I realized when I widened the aperture a little bit and started talking about race and identity, more people came into the tent.

I have been in places where we were doing workshops or I'm doing a talk and people stand up and they will say, "I am someone who came from poverty. I am someone who is struggling in some way." Sometimes it's financially, sometimes it's emotionally, sometimes it's because of a disability or a different kind of ableism. They feel like they're not seen and they're not included. There's no program for them. There's no understanding for them, there's no embrace of their issues in the way that perhaps there is for-- they perceive this embrace or interest in helping people of color feel more included, create a sense of belonging for them.

When I talk about identity, suddenly people feel like, "Okay, I don't necessarily see myself as raced." In the way that Tony Morrison talked about it.

The way that you are, it's laid upon you. In the way that people of color do. When you talk about identity, then people are, "I'm Southern. I'm an athlete. I'm tall. I'm older and I work in tech and I feel out of sorts because the world is passing me by. Everyone is wearing their watches talking about how many triathlons they've done and how many steps they've logged and I'm at the end of my career, and this is a very uncomfortable place for me to be." When we started talking about identity, we just started to see cards coming in, submissions coming in from lots of different people.

The other group for whom that was very important were Latinos because when we were talking about race, that didn't necessarily apply to a lot of people because they felt that the door that they would walk through had more to do with culture, had more to do with ethnicity, had more to do with geography. One of the many lessons I've taken from this is that the language that we use, the vernacular of our conversations about race as we understand it, is probably too pinched. It's too narrow. We maybe need to think about ways to expand that so more people are included, and maybe we can have conversations that are fuller and a bit more productive.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can do a few things with you on the phone with Michele Norris. We can take your six words with your observations, thoughts, or experiences of race, informal submissions to Michele Norris's Race Card Project. We could call them. Yes, go to her website and submit them for real if you want. Your six words, and I know I'm asking you to do something that I didn't give you a heads up about in advance.

Michele Norris: An assignment. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: If you can pen them right now. A little pop quiz. It's not a quiz, it's an invitation, postcard size invitation. Your six words with your observations, thoughts, or experiences of race or you can ask Michele Norris any other question about the Race Card Project or anything else you want to say or ask about that, or her book, which is called Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity.

Call or text us 212-433-WYNC, 212-433-9692 for Michele Norris, who you know from the Race Card Project, maybe who you certainly have known as an All Things Considered host on the station and elsewhere around the country on NPR. While calls are coming in Michele, I wonder if you would tell the story that you include of the exchange that started on the site around someone's six-word post that read, "We aren't all strong, Black women." Would you tell that story a little bit?

Michele Norris: Yes. That came from Dr. Celeste Green. We call her one of our Race Card Project kids because she was in college when she submitted her story and was feeling a lot of pressure for a lot of different reasons and sent in those six words because she felt that she was not allowed to be vulnerable. That as a Black woman, there was an expectation that she could shoulder the world's problems and that she would soldier on in doing so.

She is now a doctor and she applied to law school, didn't get in the first time, got in the second time. In her application, she wrote an essay about her experience sending those six words into the world because what happened is all these other-- it was on social media, and creating a project like this at a moment where Twitter and Facebook and everything came into our lives allowed this to percolate in interesting ways.

All these people from all over the country, including a few from overseas, were all debating those six words. "Wait, I thought that was a compliment. I'm always telling you go girl. Black women, just, they have something about them that they just have a stronger spine about them." Other Black women were saying, "Oh, wait a minute, we get hurt too. We need to put our burdens down too. When you say this, it makes us sound like weeds instead of flowers. Like you can throw anything at us and we will survive."

Celeste is now a doctor. She is a practicing OB-GYN. She says that this is something that is still evident in the work that she does noticing in her practice and realizing from a plethora of studies that have been done, that Black woman's pain is not always recognized in the same way. They're less likely to get painkillers. They're less likely to be tended to when they note that something might be going wrong. That's why we see the maternal mortality rates that we see and the difference in the maternal mortality rates among women of color.

She tries to bring this wisdom and to keep having these kind of conversations in her medical practice, and at the same time recognizing that as a doctor, as a mother, as the centerpiece of her family, she's now married and has a young son, that she is also trying to figure out how to find balance. Still realizing that there is this expectation that's wrapped up in a compliment that winds up feeling like a cement instead of pearls, it feels a little bit like a cement necklace. You must always be strong. You must always soldier on.

Sometimes, you know that saying, "black don't crack?" It can sometimes crumble and people feel like they always have to strut out into the world and be fabulous and be strong. You can't always bring that every day.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Some of the specific responses that you published in The Washington Post essay that you did that's adapted from the book, when people objected for the reasons you were just articulating, "Isn't Strong Black Woman a compliment?" Response. "No, it's strong like oxen, less than human. Like saying, it doesn't matter how we treat them because they will survive. Time to stop putting up walls and be vulnerable."

Then a response. "Wasn't the whole feminist movement about being strong? What gives?" Then more responses, "I feel like I'm forced to be strong and it makes me sound like a weed, not a flower."

I read through those because it's just such a wonderful example of how you've started conversations on the site, not just declarations. We need so much more of that.

Michele Norris: I love that conversations and not just declarations because so often when we talk about race and identity, it's a conversation that's centered around anthems. What people are saying as opposed to what they're hearing. I hope that this project gives people a space to actually listen to someone else and understand life has lived by someone in another zip code, in another realm with another point of view.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's so Public Radio of you. Michel Norris, former ATC host. We're going to continue in a minute. Are you surprised that so many people are writing in and calling in with their six-word phrases about their experiences or observations about race? With almost no notice. We're going to continue with Michele Norris after a break. Her new book on all of this is called Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity.

At the end of the conversation, we're going to do a little bit of an addendum because of the Emmys last night. I think Michele this is going to come. Michele last year wrote a column in The Washington Post critical of, I guess, the biggest winning show last night and we will find out why. Stay with us.

[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, with Michele Norris and her new book, Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity builds out of the Race Card Project, Peabody Award-winning project that you've probably heard segments about on NPR and that she's been doing on the Race Card Project website, starting with inviting people six words on their experiences, observations, or thoughts about race. Let's hear some. Nate on the Lower East Side, you're on WNYC.

Nate: Hi. Oh, I didn't expect to get through so quickly. Normally I'm alerted to it. My six words. I became Black in New York.

Brian Lehrer: You want to expand a little bit?

Nate: I do. I was waiting to see whether you wanted us to or not. When I was a kid back in the late '60s, early '70s, I lived in Upstate New York in the Poughkeepsie area. I was cutting across a lawn of a neighbor and kids don't know boundaries. The neighbor's kid yells out, "Hey, Black boy." I look at him and I'm upset initially thinking, "Why is he calling me Black?" It wasn't about being a boy because I was young, I was a boy. The thing that really got me was being called Black, because, at the time, colored was much more common in the area that I was in. I shouted back and I said, "I'm colored. I'm not Black." He said, "Haven't you heard you're Black now. Black is beautiful." later on-- yes?

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Nate, I'm going to leave it there so we can get a lot of people on. That's a really interesting story. We'll give Michele a chance to comment on it as we go. Let's hear a few. Gardner in Upper Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello Gardner.

Gardner: Hello, Brian, Michele.

Michele Norris: Hey.

Brian Lehrer: Six words.

Gardner: Minorities are often afraid of me.

Brian Lehrer: Are you turning a stereotype on its head?

Gardner: Sort of. I was canvassing for a politician in Patterson, New Jersey, and I was knocking on doors and people did not want to answer the door because I was white. Somebody told me that I knocked like a policeman or a landlord. I never realized that people were afraid of me because I was white.

Brian Lehrer: Very interesting. All right. We're going to go on. I'm going to let Mary-Ellen in Westchester speak for a few people who are calling or writing in with a similar six-word observation. Mary-Ellen, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Mary-Ellen: Good morning. Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Brian, this actually goes back to I guess, something that I have felt pretty much my whole life or most of my adult life anyway, but that crystallized for me just about a year ago when you had your program, in fact, almost to the day your guests on your MLK Day last year. There was a discussion of whether, I think, particularly with the rabbi who talked about whether or not he considered himself white. To me, an epiphany was that if you're Jewish you're not really white. My six words that I said to your screener was Jewish-- I didn't write them down, I should have, because now I don't know if I can get down to six.

Brian Lehrer: I've got it from you if you want me to cite it, but you could do it.

Mary-Ellen: Please. Go ahead

Brian Lehrer: Jewish you only think you're white.

Mary-Ellen: Exactly. I'm guessing you grew up among a fair amount of Jews, I think, in Bayside. In fact, you may have overlapped in high school with one of my cousins. I grew up just a little bit further east on Long Island, Hempstead, Uniondale area. I was the only Jew in my class until 7th grade. It gave me a different perspective that I don't think I fully appreciated until adulthood. Frankly, it's something that as Jews, we need to be aware of that the word white in the United States really means Christian. It really means Christian. That is the silent implication, but a very profound meaning of white.

Brian Lehrer: Mary-Ellen, I'm going to leave it there so we can get more people on. I hear, and I acknowledge that a number of people have written or called in with similar sentiments. Certainly, we could have a whole conversation about being white and Jewish in New York compared to a lot of other places in the country. There's an aspect of this in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has perceptions on both sides. I hear it.

Maybe we'll bring it up tomorrow with our guest, the prominent rabbi and author, Rabbi Sharon Brous, who's going to be a guest tomorrow, and among other things. She's going to talk about antisemitism in the United States and how it's been getting expressed before and after October 7th. There's all of that. Let's get one or two more in here. Susan in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Susan. You have six words.

Susan: Yes. Racism means isolation from the other, which sums up a lot of what the callers have said. I'm just going to quickly, because I know time is of the essence. In junior high school, it was mostly a white school. There were a few Blacks bused in, and I was in the band class. That exposed me to Black kids. My best friend who was a young Black boy, he became my best friend in junior high school.

Then later on I was in a training program. I was the instructor. I was the only white. My students who were considered "educationally disadvantaged." That's why they were in the training program. This was in advertising. The director and the assistant director were African-American. Everything was reversed. I had to learn how to communicate. I was hazed. I was given a really hard time. I learned a lot from that experience.

Brian Lehrer: Susan, thank you so, so much. Finally, a few that are coming in on text message. Listener writes, "Race is a uniquely American construct." Listener writes, "Biracial, not really enough of either." Listener writes-- they're going by so fast, I can barely keep up with these. "Person with an accent considered inferior." Another one, "I'm exhausted of being the other." There you go, Michele. A lot of submissions over the last seven minutes or so. Do you want to enter through any of them or just the group?

Michele Norris: Sure. Can we just say how much people can pack into just six words? I hope people who do buy the book will leave it out in places where others will find it. That it will be a conversation starter because the book includes my essays, but also these six-word stories. They do ignite conversation. They make you think about things. When Susan was talking about racism is isolation from the other, it makes me think of Bryan Stevenson's work where he talks about proximity.

One of the reasons that they created these divisions and they wanted to keep kids away from each other. They didn't want them to dance together, date together, even go to school together is because I think people knew that once you saw someone, you got to know them. You see their humanity. That's what Michelle Obama says. It's hard to hate up close. You also understand in a reverse situation when suddenly you're the minority, that is an epiphany as well.

In the story, I want to make sure I get the names right here. I took a little notes, if you don't mind. In talking about Mary-Ellen, talking about Jewish, you only think you're white. When you think about how whiteness has been-- it's fairly elastic over time. It's meant different things at different periods of time. You talked with her about being Jewish in New York City. If you were Italian in New York City at one point, if you were from Eastern Europe, if you were Slavic, if you were Irish in New York City at one point, or really almost anywhere in America, you would've been considered white with an asterisk.

Some of these things are legislated by individuals, some of it legislated by the government. If you were from the Middle East, if you were Lebanese, the box that you check on the census is often white because the decision was made. There's a real debate now about whether we should have a MENA category, Middle Eastern and North African because of these constructs.

Someone else said race is an American construct. I would push back against that a little bit since we've heard from people all over the world. They might not call it race, but people figure out how to divide themselves in all kinds of ways. Mountain people versus valley people always around religion, often around hue, the color of someone's skin, around money, around access to water, around all kinds of things. That's one of the other big lessons for me is that we keep talking about race as something that will one day go away. Racism bias go away. I actually think it just mutates and we have to figure out how to create tethers with each other even as bias changes over time.

Gardener who said minorities are often afraid of me because he knocks like a police officer or a landlord. I would love to put him in conversation with any number of Black or brown people who have submitted their six-word stories who say things like, "Lady, I don't want your purse." Because they walk down the street and someone's always grabbing their purse a little bit closer or going through a neighborhood and trying to hit that lock on the door because they see some kids standing on a corner. These are people of color who feel like everywhere they go they have to inoculate other people's fears. "I wonder if he feels that way."

Brian Lehrer: That's why I said to him or asked him if he thought his story was a bit of a role reversal. To wrap this up and then we'll do the Emmy Award addendum, what's the goal of the project? Is it simply to have a place where many people can write and interact about race or are you trying to help actually get us to a more equal and maybe less uncomfortable country in this respect? I was struck by the fact that you also wrote about your dad whose patriotism toward a country that didn't love him back, you didn't always understand.

I also got a sense that you've become maybe a little less optimistic and more disillusioned yourself over time even while doing this incredibly idealistic thing. What's the goal?

Michele Norris: Well, first, let me address the thing about my dad. He was extremely patriotic, flags flying in front of the house, little flags in his rose garden and I didn't understand it. I have become very patriotic in my own way. I think there's a lot of flag waving that's done in the country as a way to again, gatekeeping. This is our country and not yours. I believe that everybody who is a citizen of this country should embrace the flag and claim it as theirs.

Our pride and our plunder is in that flag too. My father fought for this country. My forebearers helped build this country and so I am not going to concede my claim to this country. I become ever more patriotic in doing this work as I understand America even more better, even with its flaws and even with its fissures.

I'm also more pragmatic, not necessarily pessimistic, and the Race Card Project will not solve America's problems but it will help you understand the wound. It will help you understand the divisions if you have a chance to listen to each other. Yes, I'm trying to create a place for people to listen to each other but not necessarily to make us more comfortable because I think we have to learn how to sit in our discomfort. I think if we're willing to sit in our discomfort, then we can figure out how to work together productively when we don't always agree.

That's perhaps a short-term goal. The long-term goal is something that I started to realize about seven years ago when the numbers really started to pile up in terms of the numbers of submissions we received is I hope that years from now that storytellers like us, journalists like us, and also anthropologists, sociologists, historians, will be able to look at this archive and understand America during this really interesting period bookended by the presidencies of Barack Obama and Donald Trump, followed by Joe Biden, followed by a global pandemic, followed by the killing of George Floyd, followed by ruptures at the border, followed by climate change, and economic tumult-

Brian Lehrer: January 6th.

Michele Norris: -and January 6th. Let's not forget about that, and understand America, not through the prism of historians, but from real source material, from people saying, "This is the way I see the world. This is the way the world sees me. This has been my experience." What I would give to have something like that when I was doing research on the 1920s, on the 1940s, to be able to understand America in that way. I hope that long after I'm gone, that this will perhaps be useful to someone in the future who's trying to understand the now.

Brian Lehrer: All right, as an addendum to our central conversation about your book today, I want to note the Emmy Awards last night where Succession was of course one of the big winners and that you wrote a Washington Post column last year called Succession Dulled America To The Poison Seeping Into Their Lives.

For those of us, and I guess I would've included myself, who might have thought it was helping to illuminate the poison seeping into our lives by showing a fictionalized version of this top 1% family and Rupert Murdoch and family in particular who it's supposed to be based on in such a damning light. Want to make your case in about 30 seconds because we're over our time?

Michele Norris: I think it pointed out all the things that are helping to unravel the country. I did watch it and I give them credit. They created something that captured the nation's attention in the zeitgeist but it's a bit like watching a house fire on a screen when the embers are burning on the sofa that you're sitting in. That's the way it felt to me. I said it in the column, I have respect for the writers. I just have a love of country that made me worried about what they were predicting, what they were projecting on screen. It was projecting something that was all too real for me to see it as entertainment.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to play one clip of the actor Matthew Macfadyen who won an Emmy last night and a Golden Globe the other week for his portrayal of the character Tom, who here he is from--

Michele Norris: Who won it all in the end.

Brian Lehrer: Who became the CEO, right?

Michele Norris: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Here he is from his Golden Globes acceptance speech skewering that character who won the prize.

Matthew Macfadyen: I just adored every second playing the weird and wonderful human grease stain that is Tom Wambsgans. Tom Wambsgans' CEO I should say. God help us.

Brian Lehrer: You know why I played that? Because I think maybe for some listeners who heard the character Tom speak American English in the series perfectly, and then the real-life actor in his actual British voice, and you noted in your column the relevance perhaps of Succession being mostly a British production. Give us just a quick thought on why you think that might have mattered.

Michele Norris: I think they were holding a mirror up to us and we thought we were watching the one-percenters but we were really watching ourselves and how we've allowed this to happen in our country and how we've allowed this to exist. The game was on us. The joke was on us.

Brian Lehrer: We leave it there with Michele Norris. Her new book is Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity. Thank you for sharing it so generously with us.

Michele Norris: I always love talking to you. Thanks so much.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Stay with us.

 

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