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Brian Lehrer: It's Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again everyone. Now we continue our community well-being series, West Farms 10460. In this series, we've spoken about the cycle of disinvestment in the community facilitated in part by neglect from public officials, redlining, and exploitative private sector practices for this part of the Bronx.

This disinvestment is a big part of the reason why the coronavirus and the economic downturn as a result of the pandemic has so devastated West Farms and other poor neighborhoods in the Bronx and around the city, but when the systems that exist to serve members of a community do so only nominally, those communities find ways to serve themselves. In West Farms and throughout much of the Bronx, there's a long history of community organizing and activism to show for it. Today we'll talk about these issues in the context of food justice, including how urban community farming and other initiatives can address health, economic inequality, jobs, and environmental issues.

With me now is Karen Washington, community gardener longtime food justice advocate, co-founder of Black Urban Growers, and a board member of the New York Botanical Gardens which abuts West Farms. Welcome back to WNYC, Karen, so great to have you with us again.

Karen Washington: Thanks for having me again, Brian.

Brian: We've spoken at length in this series about the history of disinvestment in West Farms and other parts of the Bronx that border the Cross Bronx Expressway, what is that history meant for the accessibility of quality fresh food?

Karen: Well, I think the biggest obstacle is when Robert Moses put the Cross Bronx Expressway and really divided the Bronx in half, all of it was a budding middle-class neighborhood. With that Cross Bronx Expressway, what happened is that you had the lower part of the Bronx, the South Bronx more in economic disrepair and then you had the upper part of the Bronx that was flourishing. What you've seen time and time again is, again, this division that we have for those who have access to resources and those that don't have access to resources. It's has being played out for decades and I think what coronavirus has done is just exacerbated the problem that we already knew was in existence.

Brian: Where others might describe a food desert, we've heard that term a lot, you prefer the term food apartheid, what's the distinction?

Karen: Yes, because I tell people, first of all, I don't live in a desert and I know people that live in deserts and they have food. I had to call my homies out in Detroit and Philly, we live in the desert and the fact is that, first of all, it's an outsider's term, that's number one, and it really doesn't get to the root problem of hunger and poverty.

The reason why I call it food apartheid, first of all, is to get people's attention and secondly, to really get people to peel back the food system that is really based on the color of one's skin, their zip code, where they live, and how much money that they make. It doesn't take a rocket science to know that, where does the healthy fresh produce wind up? In more affluent white neighborhoods. Where does the crappy food that's high in sugar and high in salt wind up? In low-income neighborhoods.

Like I said, it doesn't take a rocket science to look at that and that's why I call it food apartheid because I want people to start having those hard conversations in a country that has so much wealth, why is there hunger and poverty?

Brian: If this is food apartheid by zip code, what does it look like in West Farms 10460?

Karen: Well, as many of you might know is that out of 62 counties in New York state, the Bronx as a whole ranks 62 as the most unhealthiest. What I'm so upset about, Brian is the fact that this has been going on for decades, decades, and so a lot of us are just tired of the talk. When are we going to see action? What a lot of us have done is taking a lot of this problem on our own backs to find our own solutions because it seems like the voices of communities have not been at the table when it comes to New York City food policy where are community representation? Where are our voices at the table to make change?

Brian: Taking it into your own hands in ways such as?

Karen: Well, the thing is that-- A perfect example, when the Coronavirus started hitting the city back in March and April, and that's the time where a lot of us in terms of community gardens and urban farms are starting to get into our gardens to prepare for the growing season, the first thing that the city did was to close the gardens. That was the mandate, and it's like, "Wait a second, this is like a resource that are providing food for underserved communities, and you're asking us to shut it down."

A lot of us took it upon ourselves, number one, to make sure that we were practicing COVID-19 protocol, that means that we got together, we met with the health department, we had webinars to make sure that we can go into our garden safely. We've started building hand washing stations, we've got gloves, we've got masks. We started coming together as groups collectively, so wasn't just one garden, it was 15 community gardens in the Bronx, with the help of Bronx Green-Up, which is a program at the Botanical Gardens, to come together and see folks.

Our community is hurting, the politicians are not listening to us, so what is it that we do best? What we do best is to grow food. We met every week to talk about things that we can grow, how we connect with our community, what community gardens are growing, how do we make sure that food is given out to our communities, and that's what we did. We rolled up our sleeves and started communicating and coming together to grow food that was fresh, that was local, and that's something that was needed within our community, and then pairing up with local food pantries, soup kitchens, and in some instances, starting on-farm stands and CSAs.

Brian: Listeners, we can take some phone calls about food justice in the Bronx and elsewhere for Karen Washington, community gardener, longtime food justice advocate, and co-founder of Black Urban Growers. 646-435-7280. If anybody wants to call in with a question, or story or tweet it @BrianLehrer, but our phone number 646-435-7280. Any other urban growers out there? Or anyone with a comment or a question or who wants to reflect on the idea of food deserts or food apartheid?

Anybody want to talk about what that food apartheid might look like in your community, and it doesn't have to be West Farms. It can be other communities suffering from the same kinds of things, but certainly, West Farm listeners welcome to apply to call in and be on the air. 646-435-7280 for Karen Washington. What you were just talking about, Karen, regarding people growing their own food, growing food for the community, even beyond their own household, this term urban community farms, people may think of community gardens as a nice thing for open space and touching the land when you live in the city and growing a little bit of stuff, but it's been a long time since there were farms in West farms. Is there anything you can call farming in the Bronx?

Karen: Well, I think if you look at what we're doing in the Bronx, so I run a farmers market La Familia Verde, we are in the SNAP program, ABC program, and we're designated as a community farm cooperative because it's for community gardens that run this farmers market. We have four rural farmers that also work with us, but it's a community-based farmers market unheard of. We started that farmers market back in 2004 when nobody wanted to come to the Bronx. The pitch of the Bronx was the Bronx was burning.

I heard that upstate farmers don't want to come to the Bronx because it's too far, they don't want to come because it's dangerous, they don't want to come because poor people can't afford to pay for fresh produce. So let's tear that down. Number one, farmers from upstate don't want to come to the Bronx, "Well, if you're going to go to 14th Street, is you got to go to the Bronx in Harlem." Number two, that the Bronx is dangerous, "Well, like so many neighborhoods, the Bronx is being gentrified," and number three, poor people won't be able to afford. Well, per capita, when poor people put their money together, yes, they can afford fresh produce.

Starting that farmer's market was very, very difficult to do because it was unheard of, of community residents want to start a farmer's market. I had to go through a lot of red tape as always. First of all, getting permission and support from my local community board, my councilperson, and then getting references and support from the New York Botanical Gardens and other food agencies, like Just Food was really instrumental in the very beginning.

Then, I had to deal with the city number one and the parks department because we found a little cul-de-sac on Tremont Park where we could set-up the market. Number one, getting permission from the parks department and then the department of transportation getting permission because I needed parking spaces for trucks. I had all that well and done and then all of a sudden, of course, the city want to put their hands in it. It's like, "Okay, so you're starting this farmer's market now you have to pay revenue."

And I'm saying to the city, "Right now, you're telling us that we live in a neighborhood that is surrounded by fast food, junk food, processed food. We have high incidents of Type 2 diabetes, and you're telling people of underserved communities to eat healthy? We're community gardens. We're providing that, we're providing healthy food options. The money that we make at that market is not going into our pockets is going directly back into the community gardens."

Here we are now, 17 years later and the city gets it and you see more community-based farmer's markets that are controlled by the community that the revenue stays in the community, and the revenue goes back. A lot of organizations and with good intention, it's extractive. They come into our community and that money leaves our community. For us, we're trying to build-- I want to see a more inclusive economy. I live in an area that's surrounded by full pantries and soup kitchens. Granted, they do an excellent job, but it's not number one sustainable and it's not a grocery store.

From Monday to Saturday, this is before COVID, you could go every day and get food. So as a farmer, it was really hard in the very beginning to people to understand the cost and value of food, what I was up against, but by educating my community, telling them that I'm the farmer, then I'm bringing them fresh produce and that there's a cost and a value to what I'm bringing people get it. What people don't understand and what a lot of farmers neglect to do is to have that hard conversation, especially in low-income neighborhoods that are surrounded by food apartheid to have that deep conversation of why the cost and value of food is so important.

Why are you paying $2 for that bunch of carrots rather than 79 cent in a grocery store? Well, you're paying $2 because I'm the farmer, I have to buy seeds. There's cost and labor. I have to drive my truck. I have to pay tolls and gas and have that conversation so that the customer says, "You know what? I understand why it costs more." They have two choices either they say, "I understand and I'll pay for it," or "I understand, but I can't afford it at this point in time," but now they understand and so as a farmer, you're not frustrated and as a consumer, you're not frustrated because, again, you don't understand why there's a cost and value in food.

Brian: Melanie in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Karen Washington. Hi, Melanie.

Melanie: [unintelligible 00:13:54] good morning to you, to your guest Mr. Lehrer and Ms. Washington and the audience and everyone listening. I do agree, definitely this disparity is not just in the Bronx and I just want to say I applaud Ms. Washington for what she's doing, and also I just wanted to know all, how can I be of help? How can I help? I would like to help basically.

Brian: You want to volunteer.

Karen: Thank you so much, Melanie, because believe it or not throughout these five boroughs, we have close to 400 community gardens and so what you can do there is a website called Oasis that if you put in your zip code, it can show you where the closest community garden, or you can reach out to green thumb. Green thumb is the city agencies that helps with the licenses of community gardens and they can definitely help you to find the nearest community garden in your area.

Brian: Melanie, thank you. Viola, in Kew Gardens you're on WNYC. Hello, Viola.

Viola: Hello. Hi. I have a quick question. I work in Manhattan and every day I take the train and every other block there's a guy with a fruit and vegetable truck and if you go there, sometimes I pick up bananas or something, but in any event, the produce is competitive in terms of prices. It's like competitive with Trader Joe's. It's reasonably cheap. How come these guys can sell cheap produce on the street, but you can't get competitively priced produce in the Bronx? I don't know. Maybe they cornered the market on produce, that's my question. Thank you for your work.

Karen: Thank you so much. First of all, I want to applaud those street vendors that are out there that are trying to make a living. I think what COVID has really done is, first of all, folks, we can't go back. There's a whole new iteration of how we view food now. We know food is important, food is medicine and so I want to see more fruit and vegetable vendors that are out there.

As a matter of fact, when the health department was asking me in terms of how do we get more produce in bodegas and granted bodegas do a great job in our community, but the main problem that they have is refrigeration or the problem of storage. My idea was how about pitting a fruit and vegetable stand next to a bodega. There's a win-win situation of communities that are lacking fresh produce as they go into a bodega to get their grocery needs right next to, right outside it's a fruit and vegetable stand where they can fresh fruits and produce.

That's a partnership between the bodega and the fruit stand. It's a win-win situation. It's an idea that I put out there time and time. Hopefully, it will get some traction, so that bodegas are not held in limbo because of the fact that they don't have refrigeration for fruits and vegetables, but yet if they partner with a local street fruit and vegetable vendor, it's a win-win situation for both.

Brian: Viola, thank you. Diana in Southeast Queens, you're on WNYC with Karen Washington. Hi, Diana.

Diana: Hi. Good morning. Thank you so much for allowing me on. Ms. Washington, thank you so much, this is such a great, great topic and conversation. I'm in my car and I'm jumping up and down in my seat because I live in Southeast Queens and we too are seeing the unfortunate realities of how systemic food apartheid and sovereignty plays a major role in our health. I'm happy to announce that during the 2020 pandemic, I was able to launch a community-led farmer's market called the [unintelligible 00:18:04] court sovereign market.

It was really a resistance and just a response to all of the numbers that we saw and the correlation to if you had an underlying health issue that COVID was more likely to affect you, or you would be more likely to die and then if you look at Southeast Queens specifically within the entire US, we were significantly hit hard with COVID-19 and how death played out.

The farmer's market was a beautiful, beautiful resistance and response to the lack of healthy and fresh produce that we have. I call it farm-fresh produce because you can find produce, but are they up to par? We know they're not a lot of times in communities of color. The farmer's market was an amazing opportunity to bring in local fresh produce to our community and in a safe space.

What was even more just sobering is that the Laurelton Farmer's Market is the only farmer's market in Southeast Queens, apart from the Down to Earth Jamaica Market that did not open last year. We're the only farmer's market, Laurelton Farmer's Market and you get so desensitized to not having something that you just go years and decades without wanting it.

The response from the community was so overwhelming and it's bringing tears to my eyes now where I see grown big strapping men, say, "Hannah, I've not eaten kales since I was five years old." or you see our elderly neighbors say, "I'm so happy I have someplace to walk to." It's just food as you said it's medicine, it's healing. It's just so much and I'm just so grateful for the work that you're doing. I'm just grateful for how you're leading and I would love to connect with you off the air because you're just such an inspiration to me.

Brian: Karen, it sounds like you've got a great partner in Laurelton there.

Karen: Well, thank you so much. I commend your work and continue to do the work because at the end of the day, it's our community with our faces that the community wants to see. My hope is that we can continue to maintain our community gardens, that we're not pushed out because of gentrification. That there's an economic boom that's happening within our communities that shows off our faces, our intention. Hats off for those who have been in the struggle, but remain and try to do the best to make sure that our resources stay in our community, that the businesses have our faces, and that we can work together to stem the tide of hunger and poverty.

Brian: Diana, thank you so much for your call. I don't have to tell you, Karen, that the food system has long been exploitative. This history goes back further than the 20th century, even as a recent New York Times Magazine story that shouts out you and other urban community farm advocates reminds us sugar plantation owners reap the rewards of labor produced by enslaved people as did the first global corporations in the 17th century. This goes way, way back, and it's systemically very entrenched. I want to follow up on something you said a minute ago about food pantries and soup kitchens. Food pantries, they're not stores.

As good as they are and as important as they are and as meaningful as the charity work that results in food pantries is, I know you've talked in the past about how the food pantry model skews the value of food. Could you explain what you meant by that?

Karen: Yes. First of all, I just want to, again, give praise and thanks to all those who work in food pantries and soup kitchens because during this pandemic, I don't know what we would've done without you. What I'm looking at and what I'd really talk about is the sustainability of both food pantries and soup kitchens. I think that both are for what they're doing now emergency services only, but there shouldn't be a way that people use them as a grocery store. It's not sustainable, that's number one. Number two, again, we're supposed to be in the greatest country in the world. Why do we have hunger and poverty?

Why are there so many food pantries and soup kitchens? Hopefully, their goal is that they are eventually put out of business. That's what I want to see. That only happens if there's economic development within their communities. I feel that a lot of nonprofits, this is their lifeline. As long as we all poor and as long as we are sick, someone is making money, someone is profiting off of the backs of people who are poor and in farm. What I want to see most of all is economic development.

I want to be able to one day open my eyes and there are any food pantries and soup unless there is an extreme emergency that the people in my community, there's job creation, there's entrepreneurship, they own businesses so that people from outside are not coming in and pushing them out there needs to be more incentive. Even around STEM, I want to see more young people. I want to see more education around the sciences, around technology, mathematics, and engineering. I want to see that because I think the next generation cannot fall in line behind hunger and poverty. I think, again, what this pandemic has done is really open new doors.

You're seeing new creativity, you're seeing people who were once stuck in a business now creating new businesses. They want to be entrepreneurs. They understand what it is to own something. Also, not only to own something but to own something and give back into our community. For so long in low-income neighborhoods and neighborhoods of color, we have been exploited and our resources have been extracted. We work outside of our community.

We shop outside our community. We travel outside our community. It's time for us to look at what social capital and communal wealth looks like. That is base building, being in our community, helping each other, uplifting each other, making sure that there is entry points for training entrepreneurship. At the end of the day, the money that we make in our community stays in our community, and that resources helps the next generation of people to own their own businesses.

Brian: There we have to leave it for today. That's today's edition of our Community Well-being series West Farms 10460. Karen Washington, community gardener, long-time food justice advocate, co-founder of Black Urban Growers, and a board member of the New York Botanical Gardens. Thank you so much for giving us your time and your wisdom today.

Karen: Thank you so much, Brian. Talk to you later. Bye now.

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